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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #499 (December 02, 1994)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 00:30:30 -0700
Lambic Digest #499 Fri 02 December 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Mike's Rant &c. (Todd Gierman)
Brett/Orval (Ed Hitchcock)
La Chouffe (Jay Hersh)
Re: new lambic (Jay Hersh)
Re: Rodenbach Magnums, '86 Marriage Parfait Framboise (Spencer.W.Thomas)
Beverage Warehouse in LA (Carl Hensler)
candi vs. invert/brett character/holiday Belgians/FREE LAMBIK! (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 08:53:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Todd Gierman <tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Mike's Rant &c.
We haven't had a good rant in a long time, so Mike says:
>I've suspected for quite some time that very few people reading this
>digest are correctly identifying 'brettanomyces character'.
I have suspected this, too. The American Chemical Society Book on beer
and wine production has come up. Although it is of limited value to the
homebrewer (IMHO - more useful to the winemaker), it does have an
interesting section on Brettanomyces character in wine. Here are some
sensory descriptions that the authors list:
cider
clove-like
smokey
medicinal
mousey
horsey
wet wool
burnt beans
rodent-cage litter
The compound considered responsible for mousy/horsey/goaty (and
variations thereof) is "a substituted tetrahydropyridine derived from the
amino acid lysine and ethanol (2,11,12)."
2.Craig, J.T.; Heresztyn, T. Am. J. Enol. and Vitc. 1984, 35 (1),46-47.
11. Heresztyn, T. Arch. Microbiol. 1986, 146, 96-98.
12. Heresztyn, T. Am. J. Enol. and Vitic. 1986, 37(2), 127-132.
It is mentioned that these sensory characteristics vary with different
types of wine.
It should also be noted that heterofermentive lactobacilli (CO2
producers) can also produce these tetrahydropyridines.
Ethyl lactate and ethyl acetate are also found in high quantities during
Brett fermentation.
So, horsiness is not the only quality that can be attributed to Brett.
And clearly the various qualities may or may not be present based on a
variety of factors.
I have definitely tasted horsiness in the '86 Mariage Parfait. I have
tasted it in Timmerman's Gueuze, as well. I have not tasted it in Cantillon
Rose de Gambrinus. I once tasted it in Boon Kriek, but not in the last
bottle I had. I have not had much of the Gueuze, but did not feel that
horsiness was a prominent aspect (earthy and mercaptic [sharp,
sulfury]). Some of the Faro has definite Brett character, but not really
any horsiness (of the 3-4 samples I have tasted).
When I grow pure Brett in wort, horsey does not at all come to mind.
Acetic, cidery, floral, fruity and distinct do. My first p-lambic batch
was horsey early on, but sort of lost it later. The second batch has
never really developed this. The blackberry Gueuze (yes, blended) that I
recently bottled seems to be developing a more assertive Brett character,
maybe slightly horsey, along with carbonation (yeah). The plastic
stoppers in the European bottles are indeed holding in the carbonation.
[Also, Paul Timmerman, it can be a good thing when some fruit character
is lost - young blackberry flavor can make for some really puckery
tartness that is distinct from lactic and acetic (ascorbic acid?), this
becomes less pronounced with increasing carbonation].
I don't think that Orval is horsey. Phenolic or medicinal seems to be a
component that could be attributed to Brett rather than mishandling.
Here's a question: Are lambic and gueuze prime examples af a process
known as "making a silk purse out of a sow ear"? Think about it: cheesy old
hops, starch and tannin extractions, extensive microbial contamination.
Can anyone comment on the type/quality of malt used. Does shitty,
high-protein malt and a long boil produce sufficient amounts of lysine to
give a nice level of horsey bouquet and flavor?
On a more positive note: I await the delivery of 10 lbs. of Michigan
sour cherries. Should arrive today if USPS Priority Mail is up to
snuff. Okay make that tomorrow. Ten lbs, 10-11 bucks (for the frozen
cherries) and another 8-10 dollars for priority mail. Okay, so the
cheapest beer in the world just got a little more expensive. I wasn't
going to make a Kriek (gueuze), but couldn't pass up the free cherries -
thanks, Mom.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 10:16:14 -0400 (AST)
From: Ed Hitchcock <ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca>
Subject: Brett/Orval
I think Mike is right, many of us are misinterpreting "Brett
Character." Brett does add some acidity and some depth, but the classic
"Brett character" is, well, pretty whiffy, for lack of a better term. My
pLambic (going on 10 months) has distinct, though not strong nor complex,
Brett character. It is thin, but still lacks the hoped for complexity to
balance the sweaty tone. For lack of a better vocabulary, the character
present is a sort of high-note sweat, not the deep earthy "horse
blanket", perhaps mousy or goaty are closer, though I haven't tasted a
mouse in a while.
Due to the recent revelation of The Secret of Orval, I thought I
might express some of my perceptions of this beer. Orval is the *only*
beer I know which has an aroma that does not fade as you smell it. In
fact it *builds*, from an initial "earthy/fall day" to "loamy forest floor"
right up until it peaks at "Back side of the barn". I attributed much of
this to very long dry hopping with a large dose of EKG, and I am glad to
know that Brett is now involved in this. When trying to explain the
character of this beer, I sometimes say that Orval is a beer that smells
like sex. Pretty good for monks...
----------------
Ed Hitchcock, now on the right side of the student/staff division
ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 1994 11:03:56 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at x.org>
Subject: La Chouffe
International Beverage is the importer I believe. At least they're handling it
in the NE. Call them at 617-821-2712 they may have more info for you
JaH
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 1994 11:09:01 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at x.org>
Subject: Re: new lambic
>Sammy smith has come out with a cranberry lambic. Yeah, right.
>
>it was much more in character of a pale ale. with a slight cranberry
>taste. no tartness in the least, but hade a nice lace. overall i was
>dissapointed with it. anyone else try this out? what are your
>observations (maybe i got a strange batch, it was on tap)
sure that wasn't Sam Adams? If so it's been out a while. However as you
indicate it's a rip off, not a real lambic at all, not even close. Just a
hijacking of the name.
JaH
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 94 11:27:30 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Rodenbach Magnums, '86 Marriage Parfait Framboise
Michael Sharp wrote about Rodenbach Magnums, '86 Marriage Parfait Framboise:
> I'd really like to see other information on whats available for Christmas
> specialty beers. Is All Saint's Brands doing anything?
La Trappe "Quadrupel" showed up here recently. Not too exciting,
though.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 16:07:01 -0800
From: carlh at atlas74.West.Sun.COM (Carl Hensler)
Subject: Beverage Warehouse in LA
The address of the Beverage Warehouse, which now carries some of the
Vanberg and Dewulf products, is:
4935 McConnell, Culver City
(310) 306-2822
Mc Connell is a short street that runs south from Culver Boulevard.
The Beverage Warehouse is in a collection of discount warehouse
operations on the west side of the street. If you are coming from the
south, get on the Marina Freeway westbound. When you reach the first
traffic light, that's Culver Boulevard - turn right (east). McConnell
is on your right after maybe half a mile. Alternatively, get off the
405 at the Culver Boulevard exit and head west - Mc Connell is on the
left after you pass Centinela.
------------------------------
Date: 1 Dec 94 20:10:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: candi vs. invert/brett character/holiday Belgians/FREE LAMBIK!
Fliper writes:
>about candi sugar:
>i cannot vouch for this, but i seem to remember there being slightly
>more than just browning the sugar. i thought there was an addition of
>citric acid (specifically lemon juice) that caused some some invert in
>the carbon chain.
You are mixing up caramelization and the making of invert sugar from
sucrose. Invert sugar is a mixture of glucose and fructose made from
sucrose by adding some acid, like citric, and heating. The inversion
has to do with what the solution does to a beam of light and not with
any carbon chains. Glucose is dextrorotary (right-hand rotation) and
fructose is levulorotary (left-hand rotation). I forget which sucrose
is, but the bottom line is that after inversion, the solution bends
light in the inverted direction.
************
Mike writes (and rants):
>I've suspected for quite some time that very few people reading this
>digest are correctly identifying 'brettanomyces character'. To this
I don't know about few, but I think that the problems are with nomenclature.
It is far too easy to write "slight brett character" on a lambik judging
form and be done with it. I feel that it is more accurate to say what
you really smell: horsey, fruity, sweaty, oaky... in stead of taking the
easy way out. I'll admit that I've been guilty of this too.
>This point of misunderstand became clear to me as a result of the SoB
>competition. The comments I received said my beer had very good
>brettanomyces character. Unfortunately, one of the largest flaws of this
>beer is its utter lack of any character from Brettanomyces. It has a very
>complex, estery nose which is completely appropriate for the style,
>but this is not due to the action of the brettanomyces.
One of my judging SoB sheets had a similar comment, literally: "mild cherry +
brett aromas" while the main flaw of this beer was a lack of any horsey
or sweaty character.
On the other hand, some strains of Brettanomyces do indeed produce lots
of complex fruity aromatics. I've got three different Brett-like cultures
that, as yet, have not produced any horsey and sweaty character, but they
have produced lots of nice, complex fruity aromatics. I've given up on
one of them (I'd say 31 months is a fair amount to wait, no?), and one
seems to have some promise (alas, only one judge (John Isenhour) that has
ever judged my slightly horsey Trappist clone, recognised what it was
meant to be and he was not at SoB, so I was SoL).
Therefore, I propose that we stop saying "Brett character" because it is
correct that my beer had a Brett character -- it was very fruity, and
indeed partly from brett -- but it did not have horsey or sweaty character.
>I also feel that there is at least some level of misunderstanding with
>respect to the characteristics imparted by lactic and acetic acid
>(not to mention all the others). To this end, witness the recent debate on
>Cantillon being acetic/lactic/whatever. [my vote is acetic. lactic tends
>to be very palate drying to me]
I've had bottles from a single case of Cantillon Gueuze that have varied from
very lactic to pretty acetic. All were very oaky.
>identifying the source of some of the funky flavors and especially aromas.
First let's realize that flavour is essentially aroma-dependent. Taste buds
only distinguish between four tastes, but these coupled with aromatics are
what we call flavour.
>references in Guinard for the isolation of the tetrahydropyridines that are
>likely responsible for the horsey character (p.40). Where to go from there I
>haven't a clue. Comments?
What about goaty? Are these positives or negatives in a lambik? They would
be from the caprillic and capriotic (sp?) acids, but are they welcomed or
not?
>I'd really like to see other information on whats available for Christmas
>specialty beers. Is All Saint's Brands doing anything? How about
>Pheonix? Anyone seen the Chimay Gran Reserve Magnums yet?
Mainstreet has the Chimay Grand Reserve Magnums as well as Liefman's magnums
and even bigger bottles (Jeroboams or maybe larger? -- I was in a hurry).
They also have Rubens gift sets (two glasses, four bottles). There were
a couple of other huge bottles, like Corsendonk in hand-painted Jeroboams,
but I don't recall all of them.
Mainstreet *will* UPS beer to you (708-354-0355) and is holding a FREE
tasting of ales from Belgium and Holland on January 14th, from 2pm to 8pm.
This tasting will include Boon, La Trappe, Liefman's and many, many others.
Last time they had one of these, they had 26 different beers. If you are
in the Chicago area that weekend, it's worth a stop, maybe even worth a
special trip. Send me email for directions.
Disclaimer: I'm associated with Mainstreet, but get no profit from their
beer sales.
Al.
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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