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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #482 (November 12, 1994)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 00:30:20 -0700
Lambic Digest #482 Sat 12 November 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
De Clerck Missing Eqns (kr_roberson)
Brett. in "normal" beers (ROB THOMAS)
Orval re-fermentation (Rick Garvin (703-761-6630))
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 09:43 -0800 (PST)
From: kr_roberson at gate.pnl.gov
Subject: De Clerck Missing Eqns
I'm a happy owner of "A Textbook of Brewing" by Jean
De Clerck reprinted recently by the Siebel Institute.
I've read through both volumes and enjoyed the
experience to the hilt. I noticed a few errors
that don't bother me, like putting the Yakima hop
growing region in Idaho. Easy to do from as far away
as Belgium, I guess. But there were some missing
equations that I'd like to write into my copy.
On page 43 in Volume Two there is one equation in
the middle of the page then there is a discussion
of Nernst's equation BLANK "from which we
obtain:" BLANK ... "the equation may be written" BLANK.
Anybody have an edition of this classic with those three
equations in it?
Regards from Washington State home of the Yakima Valley
and pretty close to Idaho.
Kyle
P.S. Kudos to the Novembeerfest's organizers, judges,
et al. The judging was on Saturday, November 5th and
I got my comments (and be-ribboned certificates) by
US post the next Wednesday, November 9th! A
hearty toast to the Brews Brothers (TM).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:22:43 +0100
From: thomasr at ezrz1.vmsmail.ethz.ch (ROB THOMAS)
Subject: Brett. in "normal" beers
Hello All, Firstly, any aspirations I had of persuading someone here to take on
the list have gone up in smoke. Our machines are just not reliable enough. Which
leads to the actual reason for my post. I tried sending a post on Wednesday
about Brett. in "other" beers, but the mailer swallowed it without warning (a
growing occurence - damn it).
Anyway, back to Brett. Guinness uses a couple of strains of Brett. in their
product. However, before you get your Petri dishes out, the Brett. aged part
(Guinness is a blend of old and new) is first killed off (pasturised?) and then
blended. Brian Nummer has told me he has 2 (?) strains of Brett. from Guinness
(step in any time Brian). The above certainly fits with historical info. Porters
were originally stored for LONG periods of time in huge wooden vats to mature,
just like their age-ed relatives the Stock ales. It is from the Stock ales that
Claussen (sp?) first isolated Brett., which led to their patenting, as a
necessary ingredient to the production of Stock ales. Unfortunately for
Carlsberg, the general trend in Britain was away from these beers to the lighter
Pale ales, so no-one was too worried. In his book, Old English Beers and how to
Brew Them, Dr. John Harrison talks at length about yeasts that should be used
to mimick the flavour profile of beers of yesteryear. Basically, his conclusion
is that in the past, the only yeasts available would have been low attenuators,
which give a better balance to these high gravity brews. I have to disagree
though. In F. Accum's book from about 1820 (which Harrison also refers to) the
author mentions terminal apparent attenuations after storage of upto 80 percent.
I take this to be a pretty convincing symptom of Brett. "Why couldn't it be
Sacch. Diastaticus infection?", you ask. Well, I've got two arguments against
that:
1. these attenuations were not across the board of products of any one brewery
(whereas one pitching yeast was usually used for all the Brewery's beers - cf.
Modern Day Theakstons). Hence, a virulent and highly contaminating yeast like
Sacch. Diastaticus is unlikely.
2. The standard procedure used at the end of fermentation was to rack the young
(still fermenting) beer at about 66 percent attenuation into slightly tilted
barrels. Here the rising yeast overflowed and was replaced by more beer until
the fermentation subsided (due to lack of yeast and fermentable sugars). At this
point Porters and Stock ales were either left in that barrel, or more commonly
transfered to massive storage vessels for maturing. From this description it
appears that the primary fermenting yeast was extensively if not completely
removed prior the the final attenuation rise from 66 to 80 percent, and that
this final ferment was not accompanied by substantial CO2 production (except
apparently in the case of a Porter Vat belonging to the Meaux brewery in London,
which exploded and drowned several hundred people in the 1800's!). The mild to
nonexistent CO2 production I also take to be a sign of Brett.
Finally, the typical mash procedures of the 1820's called for very high
temperatures (often initially ca. 70 deg C) which Harrison seems to ignore
completely in his formulations. In defence of this I'd have to suggest that
without Brett. (which Harrison doesn't mention using) these beers brewed
authentically would have been very starchy and unclear.
Anyway, that's it for my flight of fact/fancy. I must add in passing that at
some point I will certainly try a fully authentic Stock ale with added Brett.,
if only to prove myself wrong. So Brian, that Huerlimann yeast will wing its way
over 8-)
happy infestations,
Rob.
p.s. Thanks to Todd for an excellent update on his ferments. Keep them coming
everyone!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:16:32 -0500 (EST)
From: rgarvin at pop.btg.com (Rick Garvin (703-761-6630))
Subject: Orval re-fermentation
Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com> writes:
> Subject: RE:Orval primary yeasts
>
> Al writes:
>
> <Well thanks, Todd, for letting the cat out of the bag! I successfully
> <cultured what appears to be the Orval primary fermentation strain from
> <a bottle of Orval. I've brewed with it three times in the last two years
> <and have had quite good results. Indeed it is an acid-producer and a
> <very slow-grower. It was not until several weeks ago that it dawned
> <on me that it was probably a brettanomyces yeast, despite all the signs
> <and it's character.
>
> I think it is safe to say that Brett. plays some roll in the Orval
> character, but I feel it is a misnomer to characterize this as a
> primary fermentation strain (which Al probably did not mean). If I had
> to bet on it, I would surmise that the actual fermentation is completed
> using the complex blend of Saac. yeasts, and the Brett is only introduced
> into the still beer at a very late stage.
>
Conversations with a certain SoB speaker and brewing scientist confirm
that Orval is bottled with S cerevesiae, Brett and dosage. He said that
this was a big trade secret. We tasted the Orval together and talked
about its complexity. He mentioned that in Belgium you had to be careful
to get a good "packet" of Orval and that it was very variable. So, we
cannot blame that on travel.
Interestingly, this person also characterized a Boon product as very
badly infected. He plainly does not like Lambics. Interesting
dichotomy.
Cheers, Rick
Rick Garvin rgarvin at btg.com
BTG, Corporation Information Systems Group, Vienna, VA 703-761-6630
Senior Systems Engineer, Internet Administrator 800-548-7466
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End of Lambic Digest
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