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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #502 (December 05, 1994)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 00:30:23 -0700
Lambic Digest #502 Mon 05 December 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Pedio shouldn't be in lambics (bickham)
Kriek pLambic recipe (bickham)
Wit yeast not created equal? (r.call)
Re: Sensory evaluation of lambics (Conn Copas)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 10:49:40 -0500
From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
I don't have time to go on at length :-), but I wanted to make some quick
comments before I get lost in the day's events (supposedly writing a
section of my dissertation).
Rob Thomas makes an interesting, if not provocative, point:
>I think lambics shouldn't have any Pedio component. In fact, I feel Lambics
>should only have Sacch and Brett. flavours. How's that for a start? Well, OK,
>you can discount it as thoughtless rantings by someone who doesn't know any
>better. So, here is my rational. It is based on an historical, personal and
>legistical perspective.
He then goes on to briefly outline some of these reasons. I am somewhat
neutral on this point, although it does sort of fit with "the silk purse"
issue that I raised a few days back, that is to say, making the best with
what you've got.
However, I don't think that the Pedio question is a matter of "should vs.
should not." Rather it is a case of "just is." Here are some aspects of
lambic brewing that allow the presence of Pedio to be acceptable:
1. Spontaneous fermentation - the brewer is somewhat powerless to exclude
certain microorganisms. He can, however, work to contain them by some
means of sanitation (sulfur and hot water, etc.).
2. Lambic breweries tend only to brew lambic beers (I think).
3. Lactic acidity is a desired component. I would argue from my own
experience and perception that the acidity works to mask many objectionable
components, particularly phenolics produced by "wild" yeasts. The acid
environment is also important for the balance of the microflora in the
beer. Furthermore, it may encourage to some degree the formation of
desirable esters. Finally, it is considered to be a "refreshing" component
of the beer.
4. The main problem with Pedio in the lambic brewery is that some strains
will produce "slime" (enormous polymers of polysaccharrides and other
materials that greatly increase the viscosity of the beer) resulting in
"ropiness" (essentially the beer gels to varying degrees). Ropiness in a
cask probably increases the need for blending and the amount of time
required that casks of lambic afflicted with the problem need to sit idle.
Supposedly, Brettanomyces (and probably other wild yeasts) will eventually
breakdown these polymers.
5. Pedio is homofermentive (produces lactic acid, but no CO2 from glucose)
and, as such, is probably more flavor neutral as opposed to other lactic
bugs, like L. brevis, that produce a variety of off flavors and are capable
of flourishing in this environment.
6. Who's to say that other breweries don't have Pedio problems? If it's
not a slime producing Pedio it may not be such a big deal, especially if
the turnover rate of the product is high. It certainly takes a long time
for acidity to reach noticeable levels when Pedio is deliberately
introduced into p-lambics.
So, maybe, someday (say 15-20 years), the rage of designer (megabrewed)
beers will be moderately sour and spicy, fruit-flavored beers produced in
two-weeks time using one or two strains of genetically engineered S.
cerevisiae that do it all. They will, of course, be marketed in a
perverse, but deftly freudian fashion, using a horse in sun-glasses named
Suds McPferd (and that's about all of the horsiness that you will find in
that beer).
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 11:33:28 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Pedio shouldn't be in lambics
Rob Thomas writes:
>
> I think lambics shouldn't have any Pedio component. In fact, I feel Lambics
> should only have Sacch and Brett. flavours. How's that for a start? Well, OK,
> you can discount it as thoughtless rantings by someone who doesn't know any
> better. So, here is my rational. It is based on an historical, personal and
> legistical perspective.
Pediococcus is a common bacteria in soil and dust, so it would naturally
find it's way into the lambic worts as they are cooled.
> 1. Historical.
> The whole lambic brewing process is identical to the brewing methods of
> the 18th and 19th Century British brewers.
Wrong - the yeasts were skimmed and pitched from batch to batch in
traditional British and non-Lambic Belgian breweries. The yeasts and
bacteria in lambics come from spontaneous fermentation from airborne
organisms and whatever finds a home in the casks.
Stylistically, pedio plays a major role. Traditional lambics are dry and
have a substantial lactic sourness, both of which need pedio to get the
job done.
> 2. Personal
> The careful (read: massproduction) or newer (read: Boon) lambic brewers can
> produce an excellent product showing very little hardness (read: Pedio).
Gueze Boon has a definite lactic character. Not as hard as Cantillon,
but I'd guesstimate that the pH is in the range of 3.5-3.7. I doubt
that one can make a beer that acidic without lactic acid bacteria.
See my later posting my my pLambic with fruits for further comments.
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 12:33:08 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Kriek pLambic recipe
Here's the recipe for my second attempt at a pLambic with Fruit. It
placed 2nd in that category at the SoB with a score of 41. The judges
comments were: "Nice leathery/goaty aroma. Pinot Noir! Nice wine-like
acidity, complex earthy aromas. This beer has really dried out- drink
soon!"
I poured a glass last night at a friend's house and passed it around to
get different perceptions on the flavor and aroma. In particular, I
asked them to tell me if the aroma reminded them of anything in particular.
My wife had the best description - "hot goat or hay that has been used
for bedding by goats or other barnyard animals." I put in my two cents
and compared the aroma to that of her feet after she's been wearing
her Birkenstocks on a hot August day ;-)
Anyway, here's the recipe. I'd like to improve the complexity by pitching
some acetic-acid producing bacteria and/or oxidative yeasts. I'll also
wait longer before adding the fruit.
Cascadilla Kriek (for 5.5 gallons):
Wort:
7# Belgian pils + 3.25# raw wheat flakes, step infusion at 123 F
(45 minutes), 152 (70 minutes), 170 (5 minutes). Sparge to a boiling
volume of 6 2/3 gallons. In the boil use 1 oz. of aged East Kent Goldings
hops that were baked in the oven for 30 minutes at 200 F to further the
aging process. O.G.=1.054.
Fermentation:
Racked cooled wort onto dregs of my first pLambic that included 10# of
old cherries, lactobacillus, Wyeast White Beer yeast, and Brett. Lambicus.
The pedio in that batch seemed to be inactive, but the lactobacillus in
the primary gave a good initial acidity.
2 weeks: Racked off the old cherries and trub. Gravity=1.011, with
a nice acidity and some Brett. character.
7 weeks: Topped off the carboy with 1 gallon of sweet wort from a wit
(boiled and chilled separately - no need for coriander in a lambic ;-).
3 months: Added 11# of sour cherries that were only rinsed and destemmed.
5 months: Pitched package of Wyeast Brett. Brux., along with a combined
pedio/brett. lambicus culture purchased from Brewers Resource. Gravity
was back down to 1.011 after sugar in the cherries had fermented.
7 months: Bottled with 3/4 cup glucose, 1/2 cup dry malt extract,
1 tbs. cherry extract (from a wine store - yeah, I know it's cheating,
but they do it in Belgium) and repitched a starter culture of the
pedio/brett. combo mentioned above. F.G.=1.007, pH was around 3.5.
Since then, it has picked up more sourness and become ven drier. I
would've liked to have waited longer to bottle, but the tannin level
from the cherry pits was already high and I didn't want to overdo it.
Good brewing,
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 94 16:05:00 UTC
From: r.call at genie.geis.com
Subject: Wit yeast not created equal?
There was a little info on wit yeast here lately that I am interested in.
Did someone say that the Blanc De Brugge was better for high gravity brew
than the Wyeast Wit? Can someone expand on this... flavor characteristics of
each, ferment characters and so on. I am interested in producing a Dubbel or
Triple but want to start with the best yeast for the job. Thanx, Ray
By the way, just where do it aquire the Blanc De Brugge and did someone say
that this was the La Chouffe yeast? If not, do I have to culture some to get
it or does someone carry a resemblance under a differant name?
thanx again, Ray
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 10:49:22 +1030 (GMT+10:30)
From: cvc at itd.dsto.gov.au (Conn Copas)
Subject: Re: Sensory evaluation of lambics
Mike talks about compiling a Dr Beer for lambics.
For those wishing to experience some goatiness, short of becoming intimate
with a goat, the next best thing is to try drinking some goat's milk. For
acidified goatiness, try goat's milk yoghurt.
For foxiness, it is interesting that a native North American grape (whose name
escapes me at present) gives a foxy aspect to wines. You Californians can
probably supply more details.
Rancid (saturated) lipids should probably also be in there somewhere.
Conn V Copas cvc at itd.dsto.gov.au
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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