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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #498 (December 01, 1994)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 00:30:14 -0700
Lambic Digest #498 Thu 01 December 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
new lambic, candi surgar (Fliper)
procrastination, patience a ("Daniel F McConnell")
procrastination, patience and plambics
vinegary vs. lactic (Geoffrey Talvola)
Acid, Patience, Religion, Hops (Jim Liddil)
Re: Lambic Digest #497 (November 30, 1994) (ptimmerm)
Sensory evaluation of lambics - Mike rants (Michael Sharp)
Rodenbach Magnums, '86 Marriage Parfait Framboise (Michael Sharp)
Acetic vs Lactic ("Bruce E. Conner")
wit yeasts ("Daniel F McConnell")
wit yeasts
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 07:51:10 -0500
From: Fliper <pec at tmc.astm.cmri.cmu.edu>
Subject: new lambic, candi surgar
so, there is a new lambic out there...
Sammy smith has come out with a cranberry lambic. Yeah, right.
it was much more in character of a pale ale. with a slight cranberry
taste. no tartness in the least, but hade a nice lace. overall i was
dissapointed with it. anyone else try this out? what are your
observations (maybe i got a strange batch, it was on tap)
about candi sugar:
i cannot vouch for this, but i seem to remember there being slightly
more than just browning the sugar. i thought there was an addition of
citric acid (specifically lemon juice) that caused some some invert in
the carbon chain.
i'm not chemist, nor have i actually dont this. I am just going on a
recollection. Can someone verify?
take care!
f'lip
Bibunt centum, bibunt mille!
------------------------------
Date: 30 Nov 1994 09:09:29 -0500
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: procrastination, patience a
Subject: procrastination, patience and plambics
>From Henry:
>The I racked after two weeks and the beer has a
>healthy Brettanomyces odor but no sourness. There
>is very little activity so I am worried that the
>beer will lack any sourness. Is it likely that the
>beer will sour with time? ......... Anybody have any ideas????
One simple idea.........put this beer in a dark corner and forget that
you own it for 6 months. Difficult, I know, but now that you are
a brewer of plambic you must act like one. Procrastination is part
of the art of plambic brewing.
Seriously, Pedio is a slow and fastidious bacteria and from your
post it seems as if you have not given it sufficient time to grow
and sour the beer. Do not expect to see much activity even when
the Pedio is in full bloom.
DanMcC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 10:28:10 -0500
From: Geoffrey Talvola <gtalvola at bbn.com>
Subject: vinegary vs. lactic
I've only ever tasted one lambic which was "vinegary" -- a bottle of
Boon Framboise. None of us who tasted it enjoyed it -- it had very
little raspberry aroma or flavor, was thin-bodied, and the predominant
character was vinegar. Maybe it was too old of a bottle.
But I have several times enjoyed Boon Kriek -- a nice refreshing
tartness (lactic?) and horsiness, and definite fruit character. All
in all, a much more balanced, flavorful lambic. Maybe it was a
younger bottle?
- Geoff Talvola
gtalvola at bbn.com
P.S. I tried Gouden Carolus for the second time the other day -- wow,
is it good! Is this an "Oud Bruin" style? If so, what are other
equally good examples? How would I go about brewing something like
this?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 8:50:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Acid, Patience, Religion, Hops
Phil wrote:
% Pardon me for differing, but I'd say it's mostly lactic. This took me
% a while to learn, but the best way to tell the difference is to sip
% some Cantillon, then take a sip of distilled vinegar. The tastes are a
% bit different, though I'm sure there's some acetic acid in Cantillon, too.
This is a good experiment. But Pardon ME for differing. I indeed have had
bottles of Cantillion that were mainly lactic. But I have had Gueuze that was
acetic in aroma and taste. It had acidity that coated the palate and lips for
minutes after tasting. I think it IMHO it is a mtter of balalnce between the
two acids with lactic TYPICALLY dominating the profile. The dissertation from
Leuven make it clear that the acid levels vary quite a bit from caks to caks
and bottle to bottle. But lactic classically is the dominate acid with a large
acetic character considered a defect by many brewers.
Paul writes:
% Can anyone speculate on
% how to achieve such a marvelous fruit effect?
This to me is the question of the day. I am hoping Frank Boon will answer this
question in the letter I sent him.
I wrote:
% On a another topic, I am trying to get an idea of the number of people out who
% have actually made a plambic at least once in their life. Please respond via
% private e-mail and I will summerize the numbers. I am attempting something for
% one of the beer mags.
%
% Jim
Keep the repsonse coming. I am intrigued by all the names coming out of
lurking. I am assuming MIke Sahrp has made a plambic once in his life :-)
Henry wrote:
%
% I am brewing my first lambic. I started ten
% gallons off with a trappist ale yeast and then pitched
% healthy cultures of Pediococcus and Brettanomyces.
% The I racked after two weeks and the beer has a
% healthy Brettanomyces odor but no sourness.
IMNHO it should be in the FAQ. Don't rack the beer! You remove all the dead
yeast and precipitated proteins that provide food for the growth of the brett
and pedio months later. Two weeks is far, far to short a time to even think
about the beer developing any real character. Wait 1 year. Develop the
patience of a Zen Master.
There
% is very little activity so I am worried that the
% beer will lack any sourness. Is it likely that the
% beer will sour with time? Should I add some lactose?
% Lactose isn't fermented by yeast but will probably
% work fine for the Pediococcus!(I'm guessing). Taming
% of the brew. Anybody have any ideas????
Again wait 1 year then if it is still "lame" you can start over :-) But
seriously check it in 3 months, if it is still lacking then add some fresh
cultures and some maltodextrin powder and yeast extract, that should help.
%
% Here is a theoretical question. If you are using pure cultures that have
% been through the whole pick and streak ordeal, are aged hops really
% necessary? If you do a primary with a Sac., the anoxic, acidic conditions
% should limit the growth of the majority of household bugs. Anyone can
% speculate, but does
% anyone have any data?
%
Well if you do like I do and let the stuff cool overnight with the lid on loose
then hops can play a role in keeping the real weird stuff in check. I also
rack with unsanitized tubing and take sample every week or two. Also the hops
in the boil help coagulate proteins and provide some tannins that act as
nutrients later in the ferment. But go ahead and do the experiment and report
back :-)
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 08:31:42 PST
From: ptimmerm at mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #497 (November 30, 1994)
Terry Scheffer asks about sources for lambic in So. Cal.
Gary Rich was nice enough to help the buyer at a local
store fill out there order from Vanberg and Dewulf. They
should now have cases of Boon available. I think it was
at beverage warehouse. Maybe Gary will jump in and
give us directions to this important site. :-) Except I
know he is in DC today and going to the Brickskeller tonight.
Terry, if you are looking for a club check out the maltose
falcons home page at http://mashtun.jpl.nasa.gov/yeast.html.
Or email me directly.
Brews stevens if offering Old Bruin for analysis. Well I have
a fridge full of rodenbach and liefman's to compare it to as well
as the 2nd place SOB entry to compare it too, so count me in!
Paul Timmerman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 09:35:18 -0800
From: Michael Sharp <msharp at Synopsys.COM>
Subject: Sensory evaluation of lambics - Mike rants
Henry Roehl <HROEHL at macc.wisc.edu> writes:
> Subject: pediococcus and sourness
>
> I am brewing my first lambic. I started ten
> gallons off with a trappist ale yeast and then pitched
> healthy cultures of Pediococcus and Brettanomyces.
> The I racked after two weeks and the beer has a
> healthy Brettanomyces odor but no sourness.
[Henry: no, you aren't the target of my rant. you just brought up a subject
I've been wanting to address for a while. --MDS]
I've suspected for quite some time that very few people reading this
digest are correctly identifying 'brettanomyces character'. To this
end Sheri (girlfriend,brewer,national judge,natural products chemist) is
contemplating how to put together a Belgian lambic version of the standard
Dr. Beer seminar kit. Until such a time as this is available I'd refer
everyone back to Guinard, p.27 where Horse blanket, Barn, & Sweat
(as in mare sweat) are all listed as aromas associated with the term
Brettanomyces character. Those of you on farms should have no problem
identifying these smells. They are not subtle. If you have to work hard
to find these smells then they probably aren't in the beer your tasting.
When you've experienced it you don't forget it. These aromas are not
generally found in the softer lambics such as Lindemans & Timmermans.
I've noted the presence of this character in Boon's gueuze and '86 MP
framboise. I'm sure there are other beers with it, but I'd have to think
about it to give you accurate examples.
This point of misunderstand became clear to me as a result of the SoB
competition. The comments I received said my beer had very good
brettanomyces character. Unfortunately, one of the largest flaws of this
beer is its utter lack of any character from Brettanomyces. It has a very
complex, estery nose which is completely appropriate for the style,
but this is not due to the action of the brettanomyces.
I also feel that there is at least some level of misunderstanding with
respect to the characteristics imparted by lactic and acetic acid
(not to mention all the others). To this end, witness the recent debate on
Cantillon being acetic/lactic/whatever. [my vote is acetic. lactic tends
to be very palate drying to me]
I would like to open up the general topic of how to prepare a Dr. Beer like
kit for the sensory training of judges. I know that I myself have problems
identifying the source of some of the funky flavors and especially aromas.
I'm fairly certain that I am not alone in this category. Sheri & I are
planning to start with the various organic acids and to look at the
references in Guinard for the isolation of the tetrahydropyridines that are
likely responsible for the horsey character (p.40). Where to go from there I
haven't a clue. Comments?
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 09:57:30 -0800
From: Michael Sharp <msharp at Synopsys.COM>
Subject: Rodenbach Magnums, '86 Marriage Parfait Framboise
Hi,
I just checked on a few things.
1. The Rodenbach Magnums are the 'classic'. This isn't the Gran Cru.
Apparently this was out of the hands of VB&DW as that is what the
folks at the brewery decided to do. I picked up 3 (a case)
'cause even the classic is still good beer & the bottles will be
really nice for my next batch of f.brown or lambic.
2. Contrary to the rumor mill, VB&DW was able to bring in more of the
Boon '86 Marriage Parfait Framboise. If you're not getting it in
your area then its a regional or store screwup.
Briefly, the special christmas line includes:
750ml Boon Framboise '86 Marriage Parfait
750ml Boon Gueuze '93 Marriage Parfait
750ml Boon Kriek '89 Marriage Parfait
4x330? 4 Kwak with a glass and stand
1.5L Rodenbach Classic Magnum
4x250 4 Scaldis(bush) with stenciled glass
I'd really like to see other information on whats available for Christmas
specialty beers. Is All Saint's Brands doing anything? How about
Pheonix? Anyone seen the Chimay Gran Reserve Magnums yet?
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 13:07:08 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bruce E. Conner" <BConner at max.tiac.net>
Subject: Acetic vs Lactic
Thanks for all the replies to my comments about the Cantillion. The
range of opinions seems to vary as much as the contents of the bottles! <g>
Seriously though, I'd like to add a few comments to my original statements.
Point one, the bottles were stored upright at the store. Not sure if
this makes much difference with a crimp cap over the cork.
Point 2, The flavor of the Cantillion was nothing like the clean lactic
bite of a Schultheiss Berliner Weiss. It was very much like photographic
stop bath, which is made with (guess what?) acetic acid. I've smelled
this stuff for many years, so I'm pretty familiar with it. I also
actually enjoy the taste of vinegar straight and the Cantillion was a LOT
more acid than any vinegar I have ever tasted. I'm sure some of the
sourness was lactic, but a great deal of it was acetic acid, I'm sure.
Point 3, I have tried Timmerman's, Lindeman's, Liefman's, and Boon
products. The only one I really think much of is the Liefman's. It
could use a little less sweetness even so. The others are pleasant
enough, but just a bit on the syrupy side.
All this notwithstanding, this may just be a case of personal
preference. So be it. I don't feel the need to enjoy ALL the beers of
the world. Then again, the stuff I tasted does not resemble the
description in the Guinard Lambic book. Who knows?
Hope this doesn't start a firestorm...
Bruce Conner
BConner at max.tiac.net
------------------------------
Date: 30 Nov 1994 20:08:41 -0500
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: wit yeasts
Subject: wit yeasts
Jim writes:
>OK, I knew about the Wit yeast being an excellent choice since
>I had a killer strong beer made with it by Jeff Frane. I thought your
>original post suggested using the Wyeast Belgian, which I thought
>would be a poor choice. Yes, Wit yeast is great!
Eric Toft, Pierre Celis and Pierre Rajotte all insist that Belgian
beers should be fermented very warm (>20-23C). Pierre R. took a
lot of heat for this when his book came out, mostly because the
available yeast strains did some really nasty things when fermented
warm. I still have some of those experiments in my cellar if someone
wants to come over and have same banana-brain-damage-beer.
Consequently, the collective wisdom suggested that they should be
fermented cool.
Now we have available a number of strains that ferment poorly when
cool. Hoegaarden certainly, Brugge and others to a lesser extent. Is it
possible that these yeasts were MENT to be fermented warm and as such
are typical of the strains that both Eric and the Pierres have been
referring to all along?
DanMcC
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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