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Lambic Digest #0497
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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #497 (November 30, 1994)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 00:30:12 -0700
Lambic Digest #497 Wed 30 November 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Spellings (Marc de Jonge)
Various comments ("Phillip Seitz")
Seeking La Chouffe Source (Martin Wilde)
Re: Lambic Digest #496 (November 29, 1994) (ptimmerm)
Cantillion and plambic brewer numbers (Jim Liddil)
Re: Sources for candi (Spencer.W.Thomas)
RE:more yeasts (Jim Busch)
So. Cal. Lambic Sources ("Scheffer.Terry")
pediococcus and sourness (Henry Roehl)
Flavors+Aromas of Wild yeasts+Bacteria (BREWS)
Help with Orval clone (Allen Ford)
Fliegerbier; aged hops (Steve Lindley)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 10:01:59 --100
From: dejonge%hotspot at hotspot.geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: Re: Spellings
In Lambic Digest #496 Al Korzonas asks:
> Could someone explain to me the different spellings of "dubbel" and
> "tripel" that are used? I've seen everything from "dubble" to "double"
> and "triple" to "tripple" to "trippel." I use the spellings I got from
> the bottlecaps of Westmalle ("dubbel" and "tripel") and was wondering if
> the other spellings are French vs. Flemish vs. English, or what?
Dutch (=Flemish) | French(=Walloon) | English
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
enkel (pron. 'ankle') | <haven't seen this yet> | single
dubbel (pron. 'double') | double (pron. 'doobluh') | double
tripel (pron. 'treepel'*)| triple (pron. 'treepluh') | triple
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
(* some dialects pronounce 'trippel')
All other spellings are invented after imbibing too much of the
beer in question.
- -------------
Marc de Jonge (dejonge at geof.ruu.nl)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 08:20:59 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Various comments
Ronald M Phillips asks about using bulghar (sp?) in a white beer.
In fact, there's already a brewery doing this--the Brasserie de
Silenrieux, which Jim and I reported on eons ago in HBD and which
Pierre Rajotte mentioned at the brewery that needs to HEAT its
fermenters to 70F to get the yeast to work. They brew one beer with
buckwheat (of which bulghur (sp?) is made) and one with spelt.
Frankly the buckwheat beer didn't blow me away, though the spelt one
was very nice. If you're interested in a giving your beer a slight
twist, try using the spelt. It's a wheat relative, gives a nice
whitish color, and presumably can be mashed like raw wheat using a
45-minute protein rest.
Bruce E. Conner said:>
>I just got my hands on a couple of bottles of Cantillion Framboise.
>After tasting one of them, I have a couple of questions.
>This was VERY acetic.
Pardon me for differing, but I'd say it's mostly lactic. This took me
a while to learn, but the best way to tell the difference is to sip
some Cantillon, then take a sip of distilled vinegar. The tastes are a
bit different, though I'm sure there's some acetic acid in Cantillon, too.
The biggest eye opener was when we had some Oud Ichtegem at the
Brickskeller back in April. This is an oud bruin, but instead of
having the lactic character of, say, Rodenbach or Liefmans, it has a
powerful acetic flavor. This took a little getting used to, but since
it was matched by sweetness it actually turned out to be quite good.
After all, that's how you make sweet and sour sauce!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 08:07:03 PST
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: Seeking La Chouffe Source
Text item: Text_1
I have heard mention of people finding La Chouffe in the US. Does
anyone have leads as to where I can find some? I really enjoyed this
beer in Belgium (the brewer is a very nice person). My La Chouffe clone
did fairly well in SoB and I would like to be humbled and sample some
and perform a side by side comparison...
thanks
Martin Wilde
PS. If Paul Timmerman is out there, call me at 503-264-4328 our EMail
connections are not working...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 08:43:00 PST
From: ptimmerm at mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #496 (November 29, 1994)
One more time on the Wit beer yeast in tripples.
I WAS WRONG! Spencer said Yeastlab was using the
Blance De Brugge, not WYEAST. So much for long term
memory. Jim, thanks for stopping me before I went
off too far.
Bruce Conner asks if Cantillion Kriek and Framb are supposed
to have so little fruit flavor and so much acetic acid.
Well, if you like acetic beers, then it belongs their.
There is a large rift between those who do and don't.
My feeling is that it can be a defect. The lack of fruit
esters is due to the brett eating them all. A fresher
sample will have a little more. I did get some fruit when
drinking them at the Brewery, but not a huge amount.
Cantillion often leaves their beers on the fruit for very
long periods, (~year) where some makers fruit the beers, then
relatively quickly bottle them (6 weeks). If you can find a
Hansons, they have tons of fruit. Can anyone speculate on
how to achieve such a marvelous fruit effect?
Paul T-
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 10:32:39 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Cantillion and plambic brewer numbers
Somebody asked about the Cantillion Framboise (it's called Rose De Gambrinus
and is 75% raspberrry/25% cherry with vanilla according to jackson) and the
kriek. I have had a number of Cantillions and more in storage, but not as
many as Mike Sharp :-) Anyway I have found all the Cantiilion stuff to vary
from bottle to bottle. From tame to stuff you would use to clean beer stone
with. Most of these have 92 on the cork. JP Van Roy is a real trditionalist
and does not try to get a consistent product all the time in my estimation. He
is not going for mass market as others are. That may change since Cantillion
is apparently going into "wider" distribution here in the US. Look at each
bottle as an individual, unique product and enjoy that palate cleansing
acidity.
On a another topic, I am trying to get an idea of the number of people out who
have actually made a plambic at least once in their life. Please respond via
private e-mail and I will summerize the numbers. I am attempting something for
one of the beer mags.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 13:47:11 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Sources for candi
I don't know why everyone is so hepped up about getting "real" candi
sugar. Eric Toft (and other sources) tell us that candi sugar is just
sucrose. I.e., plain table sugar.
Dark candi is partially caramelized table sugar. Granted, if one is
doing it oneself, one does not know how dark to make it, so there's
some justification in searching to the ends of the earth to find "the
right stuff."
That said, F.H. Steinbart has also carried it in the past. Last I
heard, they, too, were out, but it's worth checking. (503) 232-8793
=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 16:02:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: RE:more yeasts
I wrote:
< Huh? Wyeast Wit, or Wyeast Belgian?
Paul wrote:
<Yes, Wit beer strain for a tripple strength beer. I double
<checked this with Eric, who said it did produce different
<effects at high gravity. Examples? Hoeg. Grand Cru, Hoeg.
<Julius, Hoeg. VV., Brugge Tripple, ...) Are there more?
OK, I knew about the Wit yeast being an excellent choice since
I had a killer strong beer made with it by Jeff Frane. I thought your
original post suggested using the Wyeast Belgian, which I thought
would be a poor choice. Yes, Wit yeast is great!
Jim Busch
------------------------------
Date: 29 Nov 1994 13:28:03 U
From: "Scheffer.Terry" <scheffer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: So. Cal. Lambic Sources
I have been looking for a source of lambic in southern Calif. Huntington Beach
area. I have had a couple of Belgian beers at the Huntington Beach Brewery on
Main street but they are pretty pricey at $7.00 for 750ML. They carry Lindemans
Kreik, Framboise, Peche and lambic and red, white and blue versions of an Abbey
brew that I forget the name of. They are palatable but I would think the price
would be more reasonable at a liquor or beer store. Any suggestions?
Terry
<Don't burn your bridges until you get to them>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 16:07 CDT
From: Henry Roehl <HROEHL at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: pediococcus and sourness
I am brewing my first lambic. I started ten
gallons off with a trappist ale yeast and then pitched
healthy cultures of Pediococcus and Brettanomyces.
The I racked after two weeks and the beer has a
healthy Brettanomyces odor but no sourness. There
is very little activity so I am worried that the
beer will lack any sourness. Is it likely that the
beer will sour with time? Should I add some lactose?
Lactose isn't fermented by yeast but will probably
work fine for the Pediococcus!(I'm guessing). Taming
of the brew. Anybody have any ideas????
Thanks
henry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 17:35:26 -0500 (EST)
From: BREWS at delphi.com
Subject: Flavors+Aromas of Wild yeasts+Bacteria
Bruce Connor wonders about the difference between acetobacter and
lactobacillus not even bringing up the wonderful pediococcus? I put words in
his mouth but I glean that question from his remarks on the Cantillon?
Ladies and gents where do we start except by experience.My own with the
Cantillon was definitely more lactic or so I thought? This Sunday I'll be
visiting a friend in Mass. with a bottle to taste and culture from ,so I'll
be able to report back next week on that issue?
What I thought was a sourmash flavor (lactobacillus ) in my Old Ale , stored
in a whisky barrel for the last 6 months in the cellar of this leaky 200
year old victorian here in Maine , isn't? According to some Belgian sickos
in my club at last nites meeting .....its pedio and its wonderful?
Now what do I do? I thought that the off flavor from my cellar this summer
was an acetobacter infection? Especially after the Octoberfest turned into
MALT vinegar?
Now I've blended some of my Nov.21st 94 new lambic with the sour Old Ale and
added Brett . What do I have in that cask?
Back to the point of my soliloquy ,i have 25 gallons of the "Oud Bruin" left
in that whiskey barrel and I thought that I should bottle some and send it
off for analysis.
Anyone interested in doing the chore? Some of you could let me know and I'll
send off two bottles to 5 people before XMAS.
Bruce Connor will of course get one so that he can get up to speed on the
flavor you experts pick out ? Send me your UPS addresses too.
The point here is to educate and have some fun and then of course win
ribbons at the Nationals with it? Sounds to me like everyone is having mixed
luck with the Flanders style and I may have lucked onto something here.
Kentucky bourbon casks may be good for something after all?
Let me know who wants the chore and we'll have an experiment to report back
on after the holidays?
Regards to all+happy Hannukah,
Brews Stevens - Have I got a cellar or what?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 17:10:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Allen Ford <allen at darwin.sfbr.org>
Subject: Help with Orval clone
I am seeking assistance from folks familiar with Orval. Here in San
Antonio, the Belgian beers we get are usually in bad shape due to our
normally warm to hot weather and a preponderence of ignorant distributors
and merchants. Relatively fragile beers like Orval suffer tremendously.
As a result, I am going to attempt to brew an Orval clone. I would
sincerely appreciate contact from those of you who have attempted such a
feat or who have an informed opinion. I have put together a tentative
recipe for an all-grain beer and would like to receive comments on
ingredients and procedure.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Allen
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Allen L. Ford <allen at darwin.sfbr.org> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=-=-= Southwest Foundation for Biomedical Research San Antonio, Texas =-=-=
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 17:59:16 -0800
From: slindley at biosphere.Stanford.EDU (Steve Lindley)
Subject: Fliegerbier; aged hops
The German in-laws were just here for a brief visits, and thoughtful folks
that they are, they brought me some beer. The Berliner Weisse was by
request, but they also brought something called "Fliegerbier"(Pilot's Beer)
from the Engel-Brauerei. It comes in a cute half-liter aluminum bottle with
a Grolsch-style cap and is 7%ABV. I was skeptical of course- they brought
it for the curiosity aspect I suppose. Anyway,I was thirsty this evening so
I popped it open. It is pretty strange stuff, cloudy, gold, and decidedly
lactic.
I would think it was a Belgian wit in a blind tasting, although it has a
little Berliner Weisse character too, maybe a malty aroma? Anyone ever hear
of this stuff?
Here is a theoretical question. If you are using pure cultures that have
been through the whole pick and streak ordeal, are aged hops really
necessary? If you do a primary with a Sac., the anoxic, acidic conditions
should limit the growth of the majority of household bugs. Anyone can
speculate, but does
anyone have any data?
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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