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Lambic Digest #0426
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Subject: Lambic Digest #426 (August 23, 1994)
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 11:27:37 -0600
Lambic Digest #426 Tue 23 August 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
dried sour cherries ("Daniel F McConnell")
dried sour cherries
re: Foraging (Todd Enders - WD0BCI)
Spirit of Belgium contest and conference ("Phillip Seitz")
Sour cherries ~# (Delano Dugarm EDITS 36478)
Sour Cherries (Spencer.W.Thomas)
Spirit of Belgium Conference footnote! ("Phillip Seitz")
Wind malt (ptimmerm)
Re: Lambic Digest #425 (August 21, 1994) (Michael Sharp)
Re: Lambic Digest #425 (August 21, 1994)
Weiss/Cherries (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
chokecherries (Eric James Urquhart)
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Date: 21 Aug 1994 09:01:10 -0400
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: dried sour cherries
Subject: dried sour cherries
I have just returned (yesterday) from the Traverse City area of Michigan.
*The Cherry Zone* There are indeed a good quantity of dried cherrries
available but at outrageous prices unless you are willing to step up from
the 1 pound tourist size to the 50 and 100 pound gonzo size. I don't know
if these were sours or sweets. I looked (briefly), was not tempted, but
this is in part due to my philosophy which requires that one be able to
make a decent gueuse before a decent kriek. Sort of like making a white
sauce.
With a little more research it would be fairly easy to locate a fruit coop
that will sell and ship in bulk. The Leelanau Fruit Co. might be a good
starting point (the area code is 616).
DanMcC
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 1994 11:08:14 -0500
From: Todd Enders - WD0BCI <enders at plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: re: Foraging
Todd Gierman writes:
>So, consulting that great forager among foragers, Euell Gibbons (Euell
>should be considered a foraging gourmet, rather than a health-food nut -
>the fact that he frequently advocates using bacon fat in his recipes makes
>his death by heart-attack seem all the less ironic), one finds reference to
>a number of domestic cherries gone wild.
>
It's true enough that there are escaped domesticated cherries, but
several of the species you list below are *native* to North America.
>American Cherry [Bird or Pin Cherry] (Prunus pennsylvanica) is an early,
>light red cherry and is quite sour, usually has a thin pulp and a large
>stone. Euell says that most people consider this kind quite worthless, but
>notes that occasionally a good tree can be found.
>
Worthless? I'm not sure everyone would agree with that statement.
Consider the following from _Handbook of North Dakota Plants_, by O. A.
Stevens:
"Flowers mid-May; fruit ripe July. This is a very characteristic small
tree of eastern and northern America. The acid fruit is prized for jelly
making."
So, as something edible straight from the tree, it might not be that hot,
but I doubt that it could be described as "considered worthless by most" if
it's "prized for jelly making". :-)
>Euell is not kind to the Choke Cherry - so I guess these are out.
>
I would have to disagree *strongly* with Euell on the Choke Cherry. The
Plains Indians prized them highly for pemmican, a mixture of dried choke
cherries and dried meat, pounded up and mixed with tallow. They also make
the most exquisite jelly and syrup. They are even good straight off the
tree, but are somewhat tannic, which gets you in the throat after you eat
enough of them, hence the name. We eat them by the handful around here. :-)
When *fully* ripe, they are nicely sweet, and not as tannic as when first ripe.
I've always thought they'd make a good fruit beer at the very least, and the
pits have a wonderful almond character that would work nicely in a p-lambic.
Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to experiment along these lines yet.
There are also two varieties of Sand Cherry, Prunus pumula and Prunus
besseyi that might be worth considering as well.
>So, maybe next spring while cruising country roads it would be quite
>cost-effective to keep an eye open for an errant cherry tree. Besides,
>your p-lambic won't be ready to accept cherries until then, so you might as
>well see if you can score some free cherries in the meantime. Adding
>foraged fruit to p-lambics isn't just romantic, it's putting just that much
>more of YOU into the final product :-)
>
Indeed. There are many wild fruits that have potential for flavouring
a p-lambic. One is limited only by their imagination. While we *are*
looking at a very traditional style, we surely don't *have* to be bound by
that tradition.
Todd enders at plains.nodak.edu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 09:30:01 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Spirit of Belgium contest and conference
Brewers United for Real Potables (BURP) is pleased to announce the
Spirit of Belgium conference and homebrew contest, the first US event
ever to focus on Belgian beer and brewing. The conference will be held
on November 11 and 12, 1994, with the contest on November 12. Contest
entries for the AHA sanctioned competition will be accepted in the
following categories:
Belgian ale
Belgian strong ale
White beer
Double
Triple
Oud bruin (Flanders brown)
Oud bruin with fruit
pLambic and Gueuze
pLambic and Gueuze with fruit
We are making every effort to assure that your valuable Belgian-style
beers will get the best judging and feedback possible. We've already
held a month-long advanced training course for SOB judges, and will be
calling on several of our distinguished conference speakers and
visitors to judge Best of Show. Ribbons will be awarded to all winners.
The deadline for contest entries is October 31, so there's still time
to brew something special for the contest.
If you'd like a packet containing contest entry materials and
conference registration forms, send me your address via e-mail. We
expect to do our first mailing within a week.
For those who might be able to join us in the Washington, D.C. area for
the conference, here's some additional information:
Spirit of Belgium Conference and Homebrew Competition
Falls Church, Virginia
11-12 November 1994
This is the first ever two-day US event focused entirely on Belgian beer and
brewing. The Spirit of Belgium is designed to provide technical coverage of
Belgian beer styles and how to brew them, as well as an opportunity for
participants to experience the rich cultural history associated with Belgian
beer and brewing.
AGENDA:
Friday, 11 Nov 94
11:00am-1:00pm Check-in and Registration
1:00pm-5:00pm Technical Sessions
Pierre Rajotte, author and brewing consultant, will discuss practical tips
and techniques for yeast handling, high gravity brewing, and refermentation
in the bottle.
Daniel McConnell, PhD, microbiologist and owner of the Yeast Culture Kit
Company, will lecture on yeast metabolism and the contribution of metabolic
byproducts to beer flavor.
Phillippe Perpete, Brewing scientist, Universite Catholique de Louvain
Laboratory of Brewing Science, will provide a review of research on
refermentation in bottles and kegs.
Speaker X will review Belgian beer styles and discuss recipe formulation.
7:00pm-10:00pm Reception featuring beers of Belgium. Light hors d+oerves
will be served to complement the accompanying beers. Various importers
will be represented.
Saturday, 12 Nov 94
8:00am-2:00pm Spirit of Belgium Homebrew Competition Judging (Judges and
Stewards only, please. Others may use this time to visit area
Microbreweries (Dominion and Potomac River) and Brewpubs (Cap City, Bardo,
and a number of new places slated to open soon). The contest is open for
all AHA Belgian Beer styles. Entry deadline is Oct 31, 1994. Anyone
interested in entering or judging may contact Phil Seitz at
p00644 at psilink.com for entry forms and information. Preference for judging
slots will be given to experienced judges attending the conference.
2:30pm-3:30pm Celis Tasting. A tasting of products from the Celis Brewery
in Austin, TX hosted by brewery representatives. The brewery plans to have
a product brewed with *raspberries* included in the tasting.
4:00pm-5:00pm Illustrated lecture on the history of beer and brewing in
Belgium.
6:00pm-7:30pm Spirit of Belgium Banquet. A five course, authentic Belgian
banquet accompanied by six beers presented by importer Vanberg and DeWulf.
Here is the tentative lineup:
Mesclun served in Dill Crouton with Raspberry Viniagrette -- Geueze
Boon
Cream of Leek Soup -- Affligem Tripel
Steamed Mussels with Garlic and Chives -- Saison Dupont
Carbonnade Flammande with baby vegetables -- Rodenbach Grand Cru
Chocolate Mousse -- Vintage Framboise Boon
After Dinner -- Scaldis
7:30pm-8:00pm Spirit of Belgium Homebrew Competition Awards Ceremony.
8:00pm-? Hospitality and Beer Sampling
Cost is $125 per person for the entire event, $50 for the banquet only.
The venue for the event is the Ramada Inn in Tyson's Corner. The hotel
will provide rooms at a special conference rate of $65 (single or
double) for Friday and Saturday nights.
Many other surprises are in the works. We will be mailing out
registration packs in the next week or so. Anyone who wants to request
one should contact Tim Artz, Charlie Gow or me with a mailing address.
Attendance will be limited to about 200 due to site and meal logistics,
so get your requests for info in soon.
Contact:
Charlie Gow: Phone (703)319-9142, e-mail cgow at mailstorm.dot.gov
Tim Artz: Phone (703)339-8028, Fax (703)339-8028, e-mail tartz at btg.btg.com
Phil Seitz: e-mail p00644 at psilink.com
[Note to homebrew club members; you are welcome to reproduce this
information in your club newsletters if you think it would be of
interest to your members]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 13:18:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Delano Dugarm EDITS 36478 <ADUGARM at worldbank.org>
Subject: Sour cherries ~#
Todd Gierman brought up a sore point in today's post about foraging for
cherries. Many Northern Virginian homebrewers are still bitter that they cut
all those blackberry bushes on one of the on-ramps to I-66. Some stupid excuse
like we were risking our lives picking during rush hour...
In general I think that berries and cherries make better pie than beer,
but can offer some advice. In Northern Virginia, where Phil Seitz and I live,
sour cherry season is June. Farmers' markets are a good place to look, and if
you have freezer space, buy in bulk, since you're not going to see them very
long. Unfortunately the season is very short, and I don't think that these
travel well: I've never seen proper sour pie cherries for sale in a supermarket
or anywhere out of season. Further north I'd imagine that the season might be a
bit later.
Contrary to Euell Gibbon's opinion, I think chokecherries might be an
interesting option for a p-lambic. It's been years since I ate one, but I
remember intense sourness and very high tannin levels (the choke part).
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 10:36:16 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Sour Cherries
Montmorency cherries are "pie cherries", so that's not the solution
Phil is looking for.
=S
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 11:40:33 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Spirit of Belgium Conference footnote!
A number of people have commented on the Conference starting on a
Friday. Not to worry! November 11 is the Friday of Veteran's Day
weekend, a three day weekend with Friday off. Interested participants
could travel on Thursday evening or Friday morning, and return on
Sunday.
Now on with the show!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 08:23:28 PDT
From: ptimmerm at mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV
Subject: Wind malt
First I would like to say sorry my incoherent post on sour cherries.
Second I would like to branch this thread in "cheap beer" and value added.
Todd stated:
>I think that a p-lambic should be one of the least expensive beers to brew.
I like that philosophy. Taking it further, has there been a thread on wind
malting here on the LD? If so i will go "thread" it. If not, I would love
to hear about any experience doing so.
Brian Nummer on S. diastaticus states:
>I have cultured S. diastaticus from several different lambics as well
>as from two trappist/abbeys. What's the word about S. diastaticus in
>these beers?
>....
> What about Saccharomyces bailii (sp?). I know this culture produces
> banana esters among other things.
This sounds exactly like the character I got out of a yeast that was
sold as a " BR Flanders" yeast. I has taken almost a yeasr to get the
banana and cloves to start to come into line. That would be a good place
to start looking for a culture.
Paul T ( Hopefully more coherent )
Todd stated:
I think that a p-lambic should be one of the
least expensive beers to brew.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 09:12:01 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #425 (August 21, 1994)
Hi,
This was sent to the wrong address (about 200 times -- really).
I'm reposting it here since I think this is where it should have
been in the first place.
--Mike
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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 1994 16:40:38 -0400 (EDT)
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Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #425 (August 21, 1994)
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> So, consulting that great forager among foragers, Euell Gibbons (Euell
> should be considered a foraging gourmet, rather than a health-food nut -
> the fact that he frequently advocates using bacon fat in his recipes makes
> his death by heart-attack seem all the less ironic), one finds reference to
> a number of domestic cherries gone wild.
I thought the old pine tree eater died of a perforated ulcer, which is
even more ironic. A friend of mine in CA gets those czech cherries in
cans, with pits, for about $1/lb. I think it is even the aforementioned
Trader Joes where he shops. What's your idea on quantity of fruit/gal.
in kreik?
Rick
- ----- End Included Message -----
------------------------------
Date: 22 Aug 94 16:56:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Weiss/Cherries
Oops, I think I posted this to the wrong forum -- I believe this is the
right forum. Sorry if you see it twice...
Chuck writes:
> I don't know much about lambics and they seem particularly difficult to
>find here in San Antonio. But we do have Weiss beers. It is always stated
>that Lactobacillus delbrueckii is used in the fermentation for the production
>of acid.
This is true for BERLINER Weissbiers, not Bavarian Weissbiers. I believe
that all the beers you mentioned are Bavarian Weissbiers (Weizens). Bavarian
Weissbiers' sourness is probably only from the high carbonation they usually
have or because you plunked a lemon slice into the glass. I don't know if
there are any Berliner Weissbiers that have live cultures in them, but if you
can find Kindl Weiss or Schultheiss Weiss, you might try to isolate lactos
from these.
************
Phil writes:
>tasted like, well, pie, not beer. Now people are asking me what kind
>of cherries to use.
>
>What's the experience been out there? I'd say look for the sourest
>cherries available, but I'm not sure what those would be. I've been
>told by reliable sources that Schaarbeck cherries are just about inedible.
They might be very sour, but I don't think that sourness is a necessarily
a prerequisite for a pKriek cherry. Remember that no matter how sweet the
cherry is, all that sugar is going to be fermented away. Sure, the resulting
brew will not be as sour if you use Washington Black Cherries in stead of
Belgian Schaarbeek (sp?) Cherries, but couldn't the balance of the acidity
be made up by Pedios and Lactos?
As a data point, I used 13 lbs of Washington State Black Cherries (from
Dominick's food store), pits and all, frozen, blanched and then stuffed
into the carboy with a sanitized potato masher and a length of sanitized
polyethylene hose. On top of this, I siphoned 3.5 gallons of 4-month-old
pLambic. After five more months, I bottled. After six months and again
after 1.5 years in the bottle, I entered it in the Nationals. Both times
the beer made it to the second round and both times it was a shortage of
Brett nose that was its downfall. There was no problem with the cherry
flavor nor the sourness level (pretty intense) among the judges.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 14:27:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eric James Urquhart <eurquhar at sfu.ca>
Subject: chokecherries
While Eull may be less than kind to chokecherries they do make a
mighty fine jam. They are sour and can be bitter but are loaded with
flavour. I have received chokecherry jam from relatives living in
the Canadian prairies which was very tasty. The range of quality
that Todd quoted from Euell Gibbon's is very true for wild fruits as
they are seed propagated trees or bushes which naturally vary in
fruit quality.
Eric Urquhart, Centre for Pest Management, Dept. of Biological
Sciences, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby B.C. CANADA
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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