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Lambic Digest #0382
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Thu Jun 30 03:11:46 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #382 (June 30, 1994)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 00:30:08 -0600
Lambic Digest #382 Thu 30 June 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
The Holy Grail and the Secret of My Success (Jim Liddil)
Source for French oak chips ?? (brewing chemist Mitch)
Corrections, Contradictions, Clarifications (Jim Liddil)
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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 12:35:03 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: The Holy Grail and the Secret of My Success
Well now that I have your attention, I want to publically thank Mike Sharp for
providing a forum for us to discuss making lambic-style ales. I might never
have gotten started if not for this forum. And I encourage all of you who read
the digest but haven't made an attempt to try. Also maybe now lambic beers
will begin to get some respect rather than being called those infected beers.
_______
Aaron wrote:
I thought it was a LOT like DeNeuve (sp?)... including a tannicquality. Would
you agree Jim? You said that the tannin character wasa fermentation product.
Would you be willing to elaborate... anytheory on what creature prodeuced
this???
________
Try control H if you lack a backspace key :-)
The 1st round judges pondered wether or not it had been aged in wood. Well I
only brew in plastic. This beer was fermented for a month in a 7 gallon HDPE
fermenter then the whole mess was trnasfered to a PC carboy for the remaining
time. That tannic quality was much more pronounced when I first bottled it.
Now after about 6 months the balcne is better. Since I don't use wood yet then
one of the organisms in my ferment must have contributed it. My bet is it is
from one of the brett strains I used. But I am not motivated enough to do the
numerous ferments necessary to figure out which one.
Another thing is it is always warm here even in winter. I had a full inch or
more of yeast floating on top of my beer by 6 months. I guess you only need one
Arizona summer to achieve good growth. But hey it's a dry heat. My current
batch has a thick crust after 5 months though it was pitched with very low
levels of yeast. Also this beer was made with wheat extract and it continues
to get better, not that a raw wheat beer would not have been better.
Mike and I agree to disagree on some things but I feel that part of my success
as far as getting a big brett character and acidity is the use of multiple
organisms since this is what is found in real lambic.
Scott writes:
%
% A few questions:
%
% I have a pKriek to which cherries were added after 3 months in the
% carboy. The wort for this batch was pitched on the sediment of a
% previous batch to which Brett. Lambicus. Ped. Damnosus, Lactobacillus
% and a couple of ale yeasts contributed to the fermentation. I've
% ordered a mixed culture of pediococcus/brettanomyces to repitch into
% the carboy, and since I plan to do the same when bottling, I'm hoping
% to save a culture. I also have the Wyeast Brett. Bruxellensis which
% I'll add at a later date. My questions are:
IMHO you have made the mistake we all can make. You added the cherries far to
early. We all need to learn patience. Wait at least a year before doing the
fruit thing next time. Pitching onto dregs again IMHO could be problematic.
The microflora surviving may be very limit depending on how well they grew in
the first batch. Also add the cultures now so they can adapt. If you
waituntil the acid level gets to high they may no grow. Remember these are
very fastidious organisms. And if your lambic is made right you should still
have some live stuff when you bottle so there is no reason to repitch.
This reminds me of something Mike posted a while ago. He said he bottled his
framboise and added an ale yeast. Well MIke do you think the ale yeast could
survive in this kind of environment. In the dissertations the data show that
the sacchromyces is killed byt the environment I seem to recall. But you will
correct me if I am full of it.
%
% 1. What sort of medium should I use? Guinnard recommend a normal 2%
% agar with Calcium Chloride for the Brett., and the addition of
% apple juice or tomato juice for the Pediococcus. Our water should
% have enough carbonate, so if I make slants with dry malt extract,
% water, apple juice and agar, should that keep both cultures viable?
Not Calcium chloride but calcium carbonate. Make the agar with the carbonate
and allow it to cool to 45 C before pouring plates or slants. Then the calcium
carbonate will stay in suspension. This is very important as the brett and
epdio tend to commit sucide from the acid production. Also pedio is better
kept in MRS liquid culture. If you use the wort-juice combo add 0.1% agar to
help maintain a slightly anaerobic environment. Also pass the cultures every
couple of weeks.
%
% 3. A guy in our club who works in a winery thinks that having wood is
% important in having a a strong residual Brett. character. I've read
% here and in the Lambic book about adding oak chips, however I assume
% that the American oak chips sold by most homebrew stores are not a
I thought that french oak chisp would work OK. The prosity might provide a
microenvironment for the yeasts. I think St Pats has them but I am not sure.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 16:31:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: gellym at aviion.persoft.com (brewing chemist Mitch)
Subject: Source for French oak chips ??
Can anyone point me towards a source of French oak chips ? My local HB/wine
shop has oak chips, but they do not list the origin. I know a few of you guys
have your own HB businesses, send me some email so I can throw some of my
cash at you ;->
I would *really* like a nice 15 gallon french oak cask, but that's a little
outside my price range at this time.
Cheers,
Mitch
- --
| - Mitch Gelly - | Zack Norman |
| software QA specialist, systems administrator, zymurgist, | is |
| AHA/HWBTA beer judge, & president of the Madison Homebrewers | Sammy in |
| - gellym at aviion.persoft.com - gelly at persoft.com - | Chief Zabu |
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 15:51:42 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Corrections, Contradictions, Clarifications
As the club MASH t-shirt says "Never Trust a Skinny Brewer"
First as to my comment about Mike's use of ale yeast. Well I failed to
remember that Boon uses 96% old lambic and 4% 2-3 week old lambic in his
gueuze. And many of us seem to be able to culture only non-cylcoheximide
resitant yeasts from the bottles these days. So at least belgian saccharomyces
can work in that acid level. Or so it seems since there is also a fair amount
of bacteria present also.
My reason for saying that the dregs may be a mixed bag is due to the fact that
I have had alot of trouble culturing pedio from any of the lambics I have
gotten lately. On the other hand I recently got my hands on the dregs from an
'83 bottle of Hannsens Kriek and it is full of stuff that is growing. So go
figure. It still seems I see mainly cycloheximide resistant yeasts and lactos
only in bottles.
Jim
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End of Lambic Digest
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