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Lambic Digest #0351
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Tue May 24 03:12:06 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #351 (May 24, 1994)
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 00:30:07 -0600
Lambic Digest #351 Tue 24 May 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Summary So Far. (ROB THOMAS)
more?! (ROB THOMAS)
Beercans and Belgian Beerlabels - soc.culture.belgium #624 (Michael Sharp)
New Belgian Beers in 1994 - Part I (was Re: Belgian beer) - soc.culture.belgium #655 (Michael Sharp)
Liefman's Brewery (Jay Hersh)
Imported Rodenbach (Sarah White)
In the bottle (Sarah White)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 09:23:23 +0200
From: thomasr at ezrz1.vmsmail.ethz.ch (ROB THOMAS)
Subject: Summary So Far.
Hello All,
here's a summary of my batch so far. As you can see, without
actually leaving it to lady luck, I managed to botch quite
a few bits of the process to add house character ;-).
Rob's pLambic
For 10 litres
3Kg lager malt
1.5Kg whole wheat
1oz old Kent Goldings
500g dextrin
APRIL 30.
Wheat was boiled for 1 h.
Infusion mashed 30 min at 45degC, 1.5 h at 68degC.
Sparged 18 litres and boiled down to 10 (round 2.5 h).
Dextrin and hops added at the start. Due to the attrocious
yield I got a pale nonbitter wort at 1050.
Pitched onto the dregs of a previous batch of beer
fermented with Chimay yeast. The fermentation took off, and
fermenation finished after 4 days. Lots of esters and some
yeast autolysis (due to the hot spell I guess). The yeast
autolysis isn't worrying me (in fact I'm quite glad) since
it appears to me that the Ped are stimulated by dying
yeast. Research by Verachtert's group indicates that it
is dying yeast rather than yeast extract or dead yeast that is
the stimulating factor. Also, I may be mistaken but there isn't
any racking to secondaries in Lambic breweries is there?
MAY 3 - 6
Started pitching the dregs from gueuze bottles at the rate
of one a night (from Mort Subite and Lindemann). Well, I
was impatient and had nothing else around at the time.
MAY 5
Pitched the very obviously live culture from a Mort Subite
that I'd begun growing.
MAY 6
Having received Ped and Brett (thanks Dan) on the Friday, pitched
half the vial of Ped and cultured the rest. Started the Brett.
Having thoroughly mixed up the batch by swirling, tranfered
to a 10 litre European oak barrel (very cute) and two gallon
bottles. All had bubblers attached. Since then the barrel has
been behaving very strangely. Every night (but only at night)
it foams into the bubbler. Smells estery and dead-yeasty (though
the yeastyness is decreasing), and slightly Brett like (I know,
I know it's supposed to be smelling of Ped). The bottles are very
dark, so they aren't much more help for visual inspection. They
do smell about the same as the barrel though.
MAY 15
Pitched the second half of Ped into the barrel, since there was
a thick layer of slime at the bottlom of the starter bottle.
Immediately cursed and swore because I hadn't plated it out for
my collection.
MAY 16
Cleaned the barrel bubbler again (yup, it's still frothing out
every night) and replaced by a huge bubbler (about the size of
a mug) that I'd picked up at a flea market. Had another taste:
no estery (Chimay) taste, autolysis flavours are decreasing,
definately not being masked. Lactic acidity is mild, but there.
MAY 21
Pitched an active (2 week old) Brett starter, and blended the
two bottles and barrel together (trying not to aerate). Definate
lactic acidity present, very mild smell, slight wet blanket
taste (presumably from the bottle dregs I added early on).
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 09:30:58 +0200
From: thomasr at ezrz1.vmsmail.ethz.ch (ROB THOMAS)
Subject: more?!
Hello again,
sorry about the long post. I hope it's interesting.
I'd also like to throw an idea out there.
I believe Brett should be pitched either before or with
the Ped. Why? well, we know that Ped will kill itself
on the lactic acid eventually. therefore we need to do
something about it (since ped is in there well into
the bottle conditioning). In comes Brett. Brett has a
powerful collection of esterases, which convert the
lactic acid into various lactate esters. These contribute
considerably to the lambic flavour BUT ALSO they remove
some of the lactic acid. This symbiosis thus protects
the Ped and increases the flavour of the lambic.
If this analysis strikes you as too crazy, I can develop
the argument a little better, and add some data points
from Verachtert and van Oevelen.
happy infestations!
Rob thomas.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 09:47:02 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Beercans and Belgian Beerlabels - soc.culture.belgium #624
Hijacked from the new newsgroup soc.culture.belgium:
In article <2rki3s$r3q at rc1.vub.ac.be>, jqdoumen at vub.ac.be (DeJean) writes:
|> Another series of scanned beercans and Belgian beerlabels is being dropped
|> on alt.binaries.pictures.misc from today on.
|> I'm prepared to scan in requested labels, if they are in my collection.
|>
|>
|> --
|> DeJean
|>
|> jqdoumen at vub.ac.be
|> Belgium
- --
- -----------------
Michael D. Sharp Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations...
Synopsys, Inc.
Mountain View, CA The world is full of experts -- its a shame most aren't.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 09:48:09 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: New Belgian Beers in 1994 - Part I (was Re: Belgian beer) - soc.culture.belgium #655
and another hijacked posting...
In article <2rn53q$7jd at rc1.vub.ac.be>, jqdoumen at vub.ac.be (DeJean) writes:
|> Erik Van Thienen wrote:
|> : DeJean (jqdoumen at vub.ac.be) wrote:
|>
|> : : I'm
|> : : subscribed to De Objectieve Bierproevers, and maybe I can post the lists of
|> : : the new beers every two months, which already contains about 30 to 50 new
|> : : beers.
|>
|> : Doen! Go ahead!
|>
|> Here we go:
|> -----------------------------------Part I for 1994
|> *Bois Bouquet (Trappiste du) Abbaye des Rocs (Brasserie de l')
|> Domaine du bois d'Anchin Abbaye des Rocs (Brasserie de l')
|> Cuv(e')e des ti(e`)tes de pipes Binchoise (La)
|> Pendus (Bi(e`)re des) 75 cl Bocq (Brasserie du)
|> Kelderke ('t) Brunehaut (Brasserie de)
|> *Mont Saint-Aubert Brunehaut (Brasserie de)
|> Geif coroge Cantillon
|> P(e^)cheurs (Bi(e`)re des) De Koo
|> Affligem blond De Smedt
|> Affligem dobbel De Smedt
|> Aulne super no(e")l (Abbaye d') De Smedt
|> Bourg De Smedt
|> Boxer christmas De Smedt
|> *Celis pale bock De Smedt
|> Delhaize wit bier De Smedt
|> Jazzie beer De Smedt
|> St. Feuillien cuv(e')e de no(e")l De Smedt
|> *Teuten bock De Teut (Bierbrouwerij)
|> *Chapeau fraises lambic De Troch
|> Fraise de Li(e`)ge (La) De Troch
|> *Quintine de no(e")l Ellezellaise (Brie)
|> *Bellegemse witte Facon
|> *Plope ambr(e')e (Bi(e`)re de) Fant(o^)me
|> *Plope blonde (Bi(e`)re de) Fant(o^)me
|> *Plope brune (Bi(e`)re de) Fant(o^)me
|> Casanova (a`) Spa Lef(e`)bvre
|> Cuv(e')e Melletoise Lef(e`)bvre
|> Soleilmont triple Lef(e`)bvre
|> Vi king Lef(e`)bvre
|> Baron's beer Martens
|> Fresi Martens
|> Graaf van Nassau Martens
|> *Master pilsener Martens
|> Melchers gold Martens
|> *Guldenberg Nino Bacelle
|> Bousval blonde Unknown brewer
|> Bousval brune Unknown brewer
|> Peten Unknown brewer
|> Deins paasbier Riva
|> Brussels gold St. Jozef
|> Boxer Pils Van Roy
|> Ballotil (La) Vapeur (Brasserie (a`))
|> CochoN'(a`)tach'ah cuv(e')
|> sp(e')ciale vapeur Vapeur (Brasserie (a`))
|> *Incartade (L') Vapeur (Brasserie (a`))
|> Vive vie (La) Vapeur (Brasserie (a`))
|> Mac kot - bi(e')re de Blaton Villers
|> --------------------------------------------------------------------
|>
|> * = original beers, the others are so called 'label-beers'.
|>
|> From : Den Bierproever, nr 35, may 1994, p 2
|>
|>
|> At the end of the magazine is written:
|> Copyright: Alles uit deze uitgave mag worden verveelvoudigd en/of openbaar
|> gemaakt door middel van druk, fotocopie, microfilm of op welke andere wijze
|> dan ook, zonder voorafgaande schriftelijke toestemming van de eindredactie
|> van de V.Z.W. 'De Objectieve Bierproevers' mits bronvermelding.
|>
|> So I'm not violating any copyright laws. If there is interest, and if
|> someone has disk-space to keep it, I can maybe scan in the magazine. It
|> only contains about 30 pages and is only published 4 times a year.
|> On the other hand, it would be much nicer if you subscribe to it yourself,
|> hereby supporting a noble organization. It only costs 500 BF (600 BF for
|> people abroad, to be payed cash or with eurocheck). For Belgian citizens:
|> 220-0433369-09 with the mentioning of 'lidgeld', or for the Dutch: 33 NLG
|> on 3443545 giro-account.
|> Contact adress:
|> De Objectieve Bierproevers
|> Postbus 32
|> 2600 Berchem 5
|> Belgium
|> Tel. (03) 232 45 38 (vice-chairman Dirk Van Dyck)
|> Fax. (03) 457 32 79
|>
|> --
|> DeJean
|>
|> jqdoumen at vub.ac.be
|> Belgium
- --
- -----------------
Michael D. Sharp Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations...
Synopsys, Inc.
Mountain View, CA The world is full of experts -- its a shame most aren't.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 13:51:50 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at x.org>
Subject: Liefman's Brewery
>Unfortunately, I've yet to visit the brewery, or Belgium for that
>matter, but from the reading, and drinking, I've done I think you
>should have said Rodenbach here. According to Jackson (I'm working
>from memory here) Goudenband is Liefman's well aged beer bottled
>straight, bottle conditioned, and then (for the U.S. market at
>least) pasteurized (anyone know if it is alive in Belgium?).
according to Michael Jackson's beer companion which lists both the Liefman's
and the Rodenbach as examples of classic styles blending occurs for products
in both lines. For the Rodenbach Grand Cru the beer is made exclusively from
the higher gravity brew which is aged 18 to 24 months. The Alexander is made
by adding a cherry syrup to the Grand Cru, and the regular Rodenbach is a
blend of the low gravity brew which is not aged with the high gravity brew
that is aged.
For Liefman's a slightly different situation occurs. The Goudenband, Kriek and
Frambozen are all made with the same beer. This is a blend of a lower gravity
brew which is aged, with a slightly higher gravity brew which is not aged.
Liefman's Also produces a product sold only in Belgium under the name Oud Bruin
which is made exclusively from the aged lower gravity brew. I have had this
side by side with the Goudenband at the brewery (it is only available in
bottles while all the others are available on tap at the brewery and sometimes
other places, although bottles are still predominant) and it is much more sour
than the Goudenband. It is the beer called Oud Bruin which is the one made
exclusively from the aged brew. It is very tasty.
> Has anyone out there had a chance to compare the import
>Rodenbach Grand Cru side-by-side with the Belgian version?
Yes I have. They are not the same. I also called Vanberg & Dewolf and spoke
with Don Feinberg and confirmed this. He indicated that at some point in the
future the bottles bearing the Rodenbach Grand Cru label in America would in
fact contain this beer (he said they would begin having foil over the crowns
when this happens) but that presently the regular Rodenbach is being sold under
the Grand Cru label at the request of the brewery since they had a large
quantity of labels on hand from a previous attempt at exporting to America.
It sounded fishy to me, but that is what he said.
Hope this clears up some of the confusion.
JaH
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 14:45:45 -0400
From: swh at ll.mit.edu (Sarah White)
Subject: Imported Rodenbach
I visited the brewery in April, and since other Worts had asked about
this, I asked. It turns out that the product that was imported here is
the classic Rodenbach, made with 20% aged beer, and 80% young beer, in
the traditional Porter method. The beer for export was labelled Grand
Cru. This decision was made by the marketting people, and the brewing
people were ripping mad when they found out. The marketting people
thought that they would scare away new customers if they sent the real
thing, because of the strong flavor. Real Grand Cru, when it comes in
the future, may in fact scare away the new customers, who now expect
classic Rodenbach. Clearly, sending the classic Rodenbach under a
Grand Cru label has upset some beerhunting customers.
Good news is that the real stuff is coming some time in the future.
(My personal opinion is that we are lucky to get either one, without
having to carry it home from Belgium.)
None of the Rodenbach beers is bottle-conditioned because the pH is way
too low for continued yeast fermentation. The beers are not pasteurized.
If you want Rodenbach yeast, then culture what you find in OerBier. But
remember what you are getting. If you have ever aged OerBier for a few
years, you will find the flavor develops very close to Rodenbach. Not
surprisingly, when aged, all of the DDB beers will go sour and get much
more interesting.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 15:03:22 -0400
From: swh at ll.mit.edu (Sarah White)
Subject: In the bottle
It is best to drink the Kriek at Drei Fonteinen from the bottle and
avoid the stuff on tap. There is, of course, no Gueuze on tap.
The sugar they serve is best ignored. Adding it to the beer will
not make the beer less sour. Gueuze and Kriek are supposed to be
dry. It is the marketting people at the industrial breweries who
would like us to think otherwise.
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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