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Lambic Digest #0384
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Sat Jul 2 03:19:11 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #384 (July 02, 1994)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 00:30:09 -0600
Lambic Digest #384 Sat 02 July 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Jim's Wicked Lambic? (RG)
Carbonation/What's crucial? (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
carbonation (Aaron Birenboim)
Phil's Judging Guide (Jim Liddil)
Also Sprach Zarathustra (Jim Liddil)
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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 09:11:49 -0500 (EDT)
From: rgmail at ekman.unh.edu (RG)
Subject: Jim's Wicked Lambic?
Pete's (of Pete's Wicked Ale/Lager) had last years AHA BOS brewer brew a
specialty batch (a great raspberry ale), with the idea that they would do
that every year. So, Jim, have they contacted you about brewing a version
of your prize-winner? Jim's Wicked Lambic, what a concept...
Russ Gelinas
EOS/UNH
gelinas at ekman.unh.edu
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 94 16:44:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Carbonation/What's crucial?
I did not have any problems with carbonation of my pKriek (the one that
has made it to the 2nd round two times now, only to be squashed by
superior beers like Jim's -- actually, the judges said it needed more
Brett nose -- I agree). Here's what my schedule looked like:
4/1/92 pitched starters from 1) SNPA, 2) B. Lambicus, and 3) P. Cerevisiae
~9/1/92 racked 3.5 gallons onto 13# of Washington Black Cherries
1/26/93 bottled, priming with 3/4 cup corn sugar
I don't believe that I opened a bottle till about March or April, but it
was acceptably carbonated.
*************
What's crucial to making pLambics close to the real thing?
Well, I still don't think we still know what's crucial, but I think we
can now take a guess at what's not crucial:
1. turbid mash (Jim's pLambic was made with extract), and
2. wood (Jim's pLambic was made in plastic).
Notice that I said "crucial" and not "helpful." So that's not to say that
the beers may have come out even better with an all-grain, turbid mash, etc.
Also, this may be a reinforcement of the theory that perhaps the true
importance of the wood to a pure-culture Lambic is it's oxygen permiability
(which Jim's plastic fermenters also have). Perhaps, Jim's beer would have
been even better aged in oak -- more so for the oaky flavor than for the
environment for the microbiota. This would imply that possibly oak chips
added to a ferment in a plastic fermenter might be almost as good as
actually fermenting in an oak cask.
My point is that, I think that with all the talk about turbid mashs and
casks lately, perhaps we should be careful to not place too much hope in
a three-culture, all-grain, turbid mash batch aged in oak. Rather, I
personally feel that Jim's success may indicate that finding the *right*
cultures may be considerably more important than the turbid mash or oak
aging. Don't forget also, that some extracts are very high in dextrins
(like Laaglander dry) which could be used by the microbiota for long-term
sustenance in place of the starch in the turbid mash.
I hope I don't sound too cynical (I don't mean to) nor do I want to discount
all the interesting experimentation that many of us have been doing with
turbid mashes and oak casks. Oak chips in plastic fermenters may sound like
blasphemy, but think about it: what most separates true lambic brewers from
the Real Ale, Pils and other "conventional" brewers is the spontaneous
fermentation, no? And we, pLambic homebrewers, have already replaced this
with pure cultures. In my opinion, since we have little hope of producing
anything close to Cantillon or Hansens or Boon via spontaneous fermentation
in Anytown, USA, why would oak chips in plastic fermenters be any more
blasphemous?
Comments?
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 12:07:43 -0700
From: mole at netcom.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: carbonation
my lambic is also under-carbonated. i had a dirty, midex boon culture
in it, and had a lot of funky bacteria (or something) perk up in hte
bottle after adding corn sugar. I firmly believe that some of my beasties
ate sugar without producing much CO2. my $.02.
aaron
h
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 15:56:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Phil's Judging Guide
Phil writes regarding lambic brewing at home:
%
% Brewing method
%
% Traditional lambics are made with malted barley and 30-40%
% unmalted raw wheat in a very dilute mash (4 qts/pound)
% combining infusions and decoctions in a temp. schedule that
% leaves lots of undigested starches, proteins and dextrins.
% These residuals are slowly and completely dismembered by the
% brewing bacteria of the course of a 2-year ferment. Large
This should indicate that the yeasts also participate in the dismembering of
the starches etc.
% According to Mike Sharp the choice of yeast is relatively
% unimportant, as most yeast flavors will be overwhelmed by
% the pedio and brett.
Word this passage to indicate that the choice of PRIMARY fermenting yeast is
unimportant, just for clarity. Remember brett is a yeast :-)
Lactic acid bacteria (usually
% Pediococcus damnosus) provides sourness, but work very
% slowly and favor a warm (75F) environment.
The brett and other yeasts also are prodigious acid producers
Continued cellar
% temperature fermentation may therefore be a liability;
% seasonal variation from cold to slightly warm will promote
% pedio activity. Some acetic bacteria are usually present
% also, at least in authentic lambics. Brettanomyces strains
% (B. lambicus and B. bruxellensis) are also slow workers, but
% provide the essential horsey, sweat, straw, etc. flavors.
% Kloeckera apiculata is sometime used, but chiefly works to
% break down proteins and contributes little to the final
% flavor profile.
Kloeckera does nto as I recall act to break down proteins. It is mainly an
aerobic yeast that thrives on glucose.
%
%
% Common problems
%
% 1) Papazian sour-mash. Sometimes generates a rancid, rotten
% flavor. You'll know it when you taste it. See TCJHB
% for brewing details.
%
% 2) Too young. Flavors there, but not sufficiently
% developed. Residual sweetness.
What is to young :-)
I bet you wondered if any one is really reading this thing :-)
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 16:14:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Also Sprach Zarathustra
Mike writes with no sarcasm whatsoever
% Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 09:15:57 PDT
% From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
% Subject: In response to his lordship 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
And I hope you bow when you say that :-) :-o
% Now on to real issues...
%
% > Mike and I agree to disagree on some things but I feel that part of my success
% > as far as getting a big brett character and acidity is the use of multiple
% > organisms since this is what is found in real lambic.
% To clarify a bit, I'm not as convinced as Jim is about the importance of
% the enterics. I am very willing to be convinced otherwise and I
% reserve the right to change my mind again when I reread the thesis on
% enterics in lambic. 8-)
My belief is that the enterics and kloeckera both produce acid and use up the
simple sugars and thus prevent the saccharomyces from getting out of hand as
far as growth rate. And thus the bacteria and other yeasts have a gradual
chance to adpat to the changing environment of increased alcohol and pH. Then
they can grow better. That is my hypothesis based on the data.
% I do pitch numerous organisms (maybe a dozen
% where in my last batch) at low concentrations. I don't think we disagree
% on the importance of the mixed fermentation in general, just on the
% importance of individual organisms and their interactions.
Well when someone produces a plambic that is close to the real thing using just
yeast and pedio and lactos I will be convinced. Any one who has samples they
would like me to try can send me private e-mail for the address to send them to
:-)
%
% For the moment I'm still playing with the turbid mash. I just received
% my P-2 gel from Bio-Rad a few days ago. I'm now about to start analyzing
% wort from different mash techniques. (after I finish some much needed
% _major_ body surgery on my car)
%
Publish in brewing techniques.
% I have had a problem with carbonation, but I haven't determined if its
% due to a lack of sugars (will Brett/Pedio gobble them up faster than
% the Sacch. _and_ not generate CO2? or perhaps not enough priming sugar
% was added -- I'll have to check the notes) or the cells dying off.
%
% Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU> then writes:
% > First as to my comment about Mike's use of ale yeast. Well I failed to
% > remember that Boon uses 96% old lambic and 4% 2-3 week old lambic in his
% > gueuze. And many of us seem to be able to culture only non-cylcoheximide
% > resitant yeasts from the bottles these days. So at least belgian saccharomyces
% > can work in that acid level. Or so it seems since there is also a fair amount
% > of bacteria present also.
%
% Hence the great mystery as to why my batch didn't really cabonate.
Some experiments to try.
Submerge a bottle in water and see if the bottles leak gas since you used
corks.
Try to culture bugs out of the bottles. "Their dead Jim"
%
Brett generates lots of gas at least on YM slants. I did not add anything to my
pgueuze prior to adding corn sugar.
Perform some sort of sacrafice :-)
Jim from on High
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End of Lambic Digest
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