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Lambic Digest #0389
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Thu Jul 7 03:28:56 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #389 (July 07, 1994)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 00:30:08 -0600
Lambic Digest #389 Thu 07 July 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
ropiness (Jeff Frane)
CA distributor (!) (Michael Sharp)
more on VBDW CA distributor (Michael Sharp)
Comments (Jim Liddil)
Turbid Mashing (Jim Liddil)
rope, etc (ROB THOMAS)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 07:47:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: ropiness
The discussion of ropiness makes me wonder about the beer I was
approached with once at the Oregon State Fair. Someone at another table
had opened it and brought it over, in the vain hope that I would taste
it. It sort of *shlooped* out of the bottle and plopped into the glass.
Reeked of diacetyl, just reeked. There was no way I was putting that in
*my* mouth; I didn't even want it on my table. Not sure how the brewer
got that particular infection, but it sounds as though Oregon might be a
good source for pedio -- maybe he's a lambic brewer now, by default.
- --Jeff
------------------------------
Date: 6 Jul 94 16:12:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Martin writes:
>While I was in Belgium, one of the brewers told me his mash schedule.
>He use Belgium Pils malt and had the followin mash schedule:
>
> Mash in 135F - 20 minutes (protein rest)
> Step to 145F - 15 minutes
> Step to 151F - Till conversion
> Step to 160F - 15 minutes
>
>Why would someone need to perform the 145, 151, and 160F steps? Why not
>just a simple 161F step from the 135F?
There are many enzymes at work and each has it's own ideal temperature
range. All of them work faster at higher temps, but they are all quite
thermophylic (too high a temp will denature them), each at it's own
temp. For example, alpha and beta amylase will both work at 148F and at
158F, but beta amylase is more thermophylic than alpha and gets denatured
in only a few minutes at 158F, thereby producing a more dextrinous wort
(only alpha at work for most of the mash). 135F is, as you say, in the
protein range, favoring the less thermophylic of the two main proteolytic
enzymes, thus making a wort with less FAN and more small (head retaining
and body-inducing) proteins. I'm not sure about 145F, perhaps some
glucanase rest or something? If you went from 135F straight to 161F, you
would get a much more dextrinous wort (skipping the beta-amylase rest at
151F) and perhaps a gummier wort (just guessing about that 145F rest --
don't have my books here).
By the way, that should be BelgiAN Pils (America -> American, Germany ->
German, Poland -> Polish, Belgium -> Belgian). Sorry... pet peave.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 94 09:14:50 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: CA distributor (!)
Larry Lynch-Freshner" <Larry_Lynch-Freshner at taligent.com> laments:
> Well, Boon, Cantillon, and other good Belgian products are still hard to find
> here in CA...
This doesn't solve the problem with Cantillon, but...
I just received a mailing from Don Feinberg of Vanberg & De Wulf. He now has
a distributor in this state.
Paul Joseph
California Vineyard
San Carlos, CA
415-595-1768 (<- keep reading before you dial!)
The letter I received (and I assume a number of you also received it too) asks for
help setting up retail sales. Should you wish to help by recommending a local shop,
bar, restaurant, etc. Don would appreciate a call at (800)656-1212. I don't know if
we should flood Paul Joseph or not.
For those out of touch, new, etc. here is what will be available:
Affligem Abbey (dobbel & tripel)
Witkap-Pater Singel
Castelain, Jade, & St. Amand (Biere de Garde from Brasserie Castelain)
Scaldis & possibly Scaldis Noel
Kwak
Saison Dupont, Foret, Moinette (all Saisons from Brasserie Dupont)
F.Boon's Faro, framboise, kriek, & gueuze
Rodenbach "Classic" & Gran Cru
No, I don't get any kickbacks, I'm not involved with VBDW, nor do I even get
free beer out of the deal. I just drink the beer.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 94 15:30:48 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: more on VBDW CA distributor
Hi!,
A few more bits of info and then I'll get off this subject...
I talked to the distributor I mentioned previously (Paul Joseph,
CA Vineyard) and he says he should have stock in his hands in 10 days.
He will supply me with a list of retailers when he has the beer in
his hands. I'll post as compressed a form as possible here.
Paul would like to hear from people about potential retail outlets.
He can be reached at 800-595-1768 in CA _ONLY_. You can tell him I
sent you.
He has already taken an order from The Toronado in SF. He mentioned
a few other obvious names but didn't say if they'd ordered yet or
if they where still negotiating.
Finally, he isn't getting any Saisons, the Witkap-pater, nor the Kwak
in his first shippment (I believe, but you can ask him youself). If
I heard him correctly he will have the remainder of the line.
Now, how do we get a World Wide Imports (Cantillon) distributor around
here? Better yet, how do we get someone to import Hansens (-ons?) into
California?
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 15:42:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Comments
Rbo worte:
% 2)
% There is alot of discussion about what is necessary for a good
% lambic, and what is superfluous, particularly now that there
% is a show-stopping example out there (congrats. Jim). My comment
% is that however good Jim's homebrew was, we should not start trying
% to emulate the techniques used to make it. Even more importantly,
% we should take all suggestions and many research results with a
% hefty pinch of salt, since the whole process of lambic brewing is
% so poorly understood. What seems important now may be taken as
% irrelevant later, and vice versa. Hence, the more people doing
% different things the better, since this all adds vital data points.
I agree and disagree. The research out of Leuven seems to indicate in a
consistent manner what organisms are needed and what the pattern of growht.
One laos needs to look at the academic research with regard to how these
various yeasts and bacteria grow and what their optimal growth conditons are.
Depending on your view the "research" we brewers are doing can be considered
marginal at best due to the lack of control experiments. Also the time frame
is another factor making data aquisistion difficult. I personally feel that
using the data from Leuven is the best place to start. Thus one should use a
dextrinous wort, various cultures, wood casks and lots of time. Can someone
out their tell me if they have tasted a plambic made with one pedio and one
brett strain that really was close to Boon or Cantillon?
% 3)
% The fruit thing. Jackson has said that cherries are added as early
% as 3 months by some brewers, though more usually after at least a summer.
I argue that if it does not taste good enough alone as a pgueuze, why waste
money on fruit?
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 15:47:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Turbid Mashing
Martin wrote:
% 1) How do you do a turbid mash: Frank Boon replied that you take
% roughly 30% of the liquid at mash in and bring that to a boil for 5
% minutes. During the time the liquid is coming to a boil, you perform
% step mashes on the main mash. The boiled liquid is re-combined with the
% main mash at sparge time.
So you asked Frank what he does or did you say how would I (Martin) do a turbid
mash. Is this actually what Frank does or is it what he suggested you to do?
%
% 2) Temperature range for producing lambics: Frank Boon replied that you
% should never get above 19C (66F). I noticed that some felt brett did
% good at 75F. Mr. Boon replied that this is too warm...
Probably never gets above 19 C in Belgium anyway :-)
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:14:56 +0200
From: thomasr at ezrz1.vmsmail.ethz.ch (ROB THOMAS)
Subject: rope, etc
Hello all,
at least I finally got to post! I was beginning to lose all hope!
Jeremy (jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu) compared his rope
to high molecular weight DNA solutions. I imagine that's what I'd
describe it as if I'd ever seen DNA solutions. That rope
is composed of carbohydrates nucleic acids and proteins (basically
the whole lot and the kitchen sink). I don't know about the structure.
Martin's (Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com) post about the Boon method
of mashing fits with my preconcieved ideas (always a comforting thing).
I still (and with no further evidence to date) think the first
thin decoct removes most of the beta amylase, and the rest of the
mash is a standard temp controlled mash.
Finally, thanks Marc (dejonge at geof.ruu.nl) for the info on the
new gueuze releases. I don't think I'll buy a crate, but if I
see the odd orphan about I'll give it a go.
Happy infestations!
Rob.
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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