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Lambic Digest #0397
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Fri Jul 15 03:28:48 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #397 (July 15, 1994)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 00:30:13 -0600
Lambic Digest #397 Fri 15 July 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
More Flanders (C.R. Saikley)
Flanders Yeast, Zenne Valley and Goudenband (Martin Wilde)
Belgian Beer in CA (Michael Sharp)
Brian Nummer returns (BAN5845)
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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 08:41:43 PDT
From: ptimmerm at mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV
Hello everybody, this is my first post to your group, but I
have been disecting your archives for some time.
Phil Seitz <p00644 at psilink.com> says about Oud Bruins:
>I think this is the challenge of the year, just as everybody was trying
>to brew white beers last year. Your guess is as good as mine (at least
>until we see how the BURP Guys' batches turn out).
Gary Rich <garyrich at qdeck.com> on Flanders Beers
>I'm on it! On the cutting edge with BURP Labs! I've got my third
>serious attempt in secondary now.
I agree completely with Garys recipe design philosophy I have had
good succes make worts for these beers that way. The brewer's
resource Flanders Yeast, on the other hand, has never given any
acceptable results. I doubt this yeast has ever been to Flanders.
I sure didn't run into any there even remotely similar.
Gary, the cherries used in Belgium are small, sour, and often dried.
I think you will find trader joes has just the thing!
WRT Brett, (not Wilson :-) < inside club joke ), I think Frank
Boon said there were 17 or 18 different types. But you guys probably
already know that.
Rick Kessler <RKESSLER at HR.HOUSE.GOV> writes
>I have noticed a lot of discussion lately of sour mashing with
>particular regard to Papazzian's method. ...
>So, my question now is this: If I want to do a sour mash,
>instead of using crystal malt to infect the wort, could I instead
i>nfect it with some of my p-lambic and perhaps some dregs?
That, or some unpasteurized sour kraut, pickles, or sourdough starter.
This in only half joking. At least they would tend to be clean
strains, not the compost heap / landfill aroma dominant in many
sour mashes.
"Moore, Brian" <Moorebw at hvsmtp1.mdc.com> writes...
I was looking thru a pre-earthquake catalog from Brewer's Resource in
California. One of their yeasts sounds like a good candidate. It is
listed as CL-32 'Belgian Ale #2'.
DON'T DO IT!!!!! (Jeff would kill me if he knew I said this!)
This yeast gave me the most dominant amyl acetate arama of any
beer I've ever encountered. I was also off scale for phenols.
If you want you beer to smell like bananas use it. But I dont
think Goudenbond yet comes in that flavor :-) Mabey in the
future if Lindeman's takes them over :-) :-)
Paul Timmerman
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 08:52:51 PDT
From: ptimmerm at mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV
Notes of My Tour of Frank Boon's Brewery
(Kind of long, I hope nobody gets pissed!)
On a recent trip to Belgium, I was lucky enough to spend
three wonderful hours with Frank Boon, of N.V. Brouwerij F. Boon.
Frank Boon owns and operates a brewery in the traditional brewing
town of Lembeek, south of Brussels. This historic town was onthe main
trading route for goods traveling between Paris and Brussels. This helped
spread "lambic" style beers far beyond the local region. Also important
was the ability of lambic beers to keep longer than other ales of the day
The location of the town of Lembeek in the Senne Valley is also important
today. Lambics are spontaneously fermented, thus the location of the
brewery, and it's local microflora are an important component in the beer
The site for the Boon Brewery was not originally a brewery, but was
converted from a factory about ten years ago. According to Frank,
there are different microflora near the river in Lembeek than would
be found up on the surrounding hills. This is due to fog and humidity.
Before setting up shop in his current location, he tested the local
microflora by setting out a tray of wort overnight, then fermenting it ina flask. Conventionalwisdom says that these beers can only be made in the
Senne valley. Frank said that spontaneous beers can be made almost anywhere. The important criteria is that the area have frost part of the year
The frost kills may bacteria that would take ruin the beer. When the
spores of the wild yeast can take hold in the wort within three days,
you can get a good lambic, not something more akin to vinegar.
Speaking of sourness, Frank is a proponent of beers with a modest
lactic sourness. His beers are much less sour than many of his
competitors. He considers the barrels of more sour beers to be of second
quality. Certainly his fine Gueuze is no more puckering than a firm dry
white wine from France. Traditionally, these sour barrels were sold off
young and turned into Faro at the local brasserie, which is a cafe that
blends beers bought by the barrel from brewers. Each day they
would take a barrel of young, sour, lambic, and add candy sugar. 90% of
a given brouwerij's product was distributed in this manner. Today the
traditional brasserie is almost extinct. Where It's available today, it
is mostly bottles of Gueuze. Today almost 100% of the lambic style beers
produced end up in bottles, as gueuze, lambic, kriek, or some recently
invented fruit flavored beer, such as a Lindeman's product. For the
blenders, many more second quality beers must be bottled. This according
to Frank is a historic reason why many of his competitors are bottling
very hard, sour gueuze. He seems to be able to produce consistent
products, which are much more approachable than some others, such as
Cantillion.
I like the idea of testing the local microflora. I'm afraid
I might have to wait quite a while for a frost here in LA. But I
would love to people across the country start sampling the local
conditions. The people at Davis have gone to great lengths to
identify different wine growing climates and micro-climates. I
think it's pLambics turn, (even if they don't). In fact I may just
contact my climatology friends across the street and request some
data. If anybody wants to help on such a project, please let me
know.
Paul Timmerman (Society for Protection of Aboriginal Micro-Flora)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 09:29:55 PDT
From: cr at uunet.uu.net (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: More Flanders
Greetings All,
I'm back from Ireland where the stout was tasty, but of course this
isn't the Stout Digest, so I won't go into too much detail. Suffice to
say that the Guinness in Ireland has a definite sour twang hidden amongst
the roasty toasties. Anyway, on to today's topics...
From: Gary Rich <garyrich at qdeck.com>
>Since I have a son named Alexander, I can't resist doing a cherry beer with 5
>gallons of this. Does anyone have any good idea about how long to wait
>before adding the cherries? The 1 year normal for lambics seems too long, but
>just adding them when I racked to secondary seemed too short a time. when do
>Liefmans/Rodenbach add them? FWIW, all I have access to are local (non-sour)
>bing cherries, but I think this beer will be sour enough to stand up to them.
I don't have my Liefmans data handy, but I Rodenbach's practices are
unforgetable, although you're not going to like the answer. Rodenbach
Alexander is made from a wort of 13 degrees which is aged for 18-24 months
in enourmous oak barrels (10,000 to 65,000 liters in each barrel). Alexander
is then dosed with cherry syrup, which adds sweetness. The sourness comes
from the Lactobacillus.
Cheers,
CR
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 12:29:45 PST
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: Flanders Yeast, Zenne Valley and Goudenband
Text item: Text_1
Brian Moore writes:
> I was looking thru a pre-earthquake catalog from Brewer's Resource in
> California. One of their yeasts sounds like a good candidate. It is
> listed as CL-32 'Belgian Ale #2'. They describe it as a 'Flanders
> style yeast. Makes a terrific strong brown and a good base brew for
> fruit flavored beers.' Has anyone ever used this yeast or know
> anything about it's characteristics?
I called Jeff and asked if he knew the origin of this yeast. Even
though he keeps the yeast origin a secret, this one he does not know.
Jeff did say that they have or will be receiving 3 additional Flanders
yeast strains. One of them is Oerbier which I obtained (from the
bottle) while in Belgium.
Algis R Korzonas writes:
> Dr. Mussche said that the orchards that used to fill the Zenne valley
> have all since been cut down. It was these orchards that provided the
> microbiota that drifted into the coolships in the attics of the lambik
> breweries. He said that most of the microbiota that now ferments the
> lambiks is from the casks.
There may be truth in this since Cantillion is in Anderlecht which is a
suburb of Brussels. I noticed alot of "urban renewal" going on in the
area (probably a source of different microbiota). Right next door to
Frank Boon's they are building a new train station (will make visiting
Mr. Boon easier...). The area around Lindemann's is mainly
wheat/corn/barley/homes now.
On the other hand, I asked Mr. Boon about where the microbiota presently
comes from and quoted Dr. Mussche's comments, Mr. Boon said the source
was "the air" in the Zenne Valley, with some of the microbiota obtained
from the casks.
On Goudenband:
I seem to recall reading that Madam Rose simmers the Goudenard wort all
night to obtain that dark red/brown color which will definitely affect
the flavor, while Rodenbach just uses CaraVienne malt.
martin
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 15:32:45 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Belgian Beer in CA
Hi,
On a somewhat commercial note (not that I make a cent), the shops
and restaurants below have placed orders for VBDW products. Most
of the first shippment to CA has been sold by the distributor
(though it might have just been allocated -- I don't know if its
actually hit the shops yet). Apparently the demand for these products
has outstripped his supply so the initial list is sort.
Green's Restaurant, SF
Cannery Wine Cellar, SF
Lets Brew, Morgan Hill
Sandy's Liquior, San Louis Abispo
The Pasta Shope & Winery, Mt Shasta
Toronado, SF
Liquor Warehouse, Benicia
Wine Exchange of Sonoma, Sonoma
Lucky 13, SF
(I'm not a native of CA so don't flame me for the spelling of the place names)
I won't be making more than one or two more postings like this.
I want word to get out to all you thirsty subscribers but I don't
want to turn this into an on-line advertisement. I also don't think
the folks in Norway, etc. are particlarly interested.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 21:36:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: BAN5845 at tntech.edu
Subject: Brian Nummer returns
I have returned! After a little more than a month in Germany and nearly
40 brewpubs I am exhausted so I'll offer only a brief report. I searched
Germany for Lambic breweries and didn't find any. SO I guess that's all
I can write here :-). It is the lambic digest, right? Actually I will
offer this tidbit:
After visiting nearly 40 brewpubs I have found that there exists so really
nice brewers and some really *\)$ at & brewers. At one brewpub in Dusseldorf
I stayed 6 hours as the brewer fed me beer and could not stop talking. At
another the brewer asked me "just who ARE you?". I say this for those of
you visiting breweries. Search out the brewer and don't be intimidated by
the snobby "Diplom Braumeister".
Well, more about the one nice brewer. It turns out he has worked at both
the Berliner Kindl and Schultheiss breweries. We talked at length about
Berliner weiss beers and the differences between the two beers. It seems
we struck up a friendship and I think I talked him into visiting the US
I almost forgot... Schultheiss uses a Berliner ale yeast and Lactobacillus
as expected, but they also use Brett brux.
Brian Nummer
BAN5845 at TnTech.edu
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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