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Lambic Digest #0391
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Sat Jul 9 03:15:29 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #391 (July 09, 1994)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 00:30:10 -0600
Lambic Digest #391 Sat 09 July 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
slime vs. rope (Todd Gierman)
skunks/rope (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Sour Mash ("Randy M. Davis")
Oxygen? We Don't Need No Steenkin' .... (Martin Lodahl)
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Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 10:08:52 -0500
From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: slime vs. rope
A number of people have given anecdotal details of slime and ropiness. I
believe that although the outcome may be similar (increased viscosity) they
are not necessarily the same thing. Ropiness is generally considered a
symptom of contamination with 'capsule' producing bacteria, usually
acetobacter or some types of lactobacilli. Frequently these guys produce a
polysaccharide capsule, which results in an increased viscosity, as many
have indicated. When poured, the contaminated beer generally comes out
somewhat like jelly. Some strains of Pediococcus damnosus are considered
'slime' producers, some are not. Apparently the slime contains all sorts
of molecules including nucleic acids, proteins, and polysaccharides and is
probably seen as the white strings people frequently comment on in their
p-lambics. You don't need a slime producing pedio to get souring.
>Date: 5 Jul 1994 10:59:15 -0800
>From: "Larry Lynch-Freshner" <Larry_Lynch-Freshner at taligent.com>
>Todd G. writes of making a Framboise Noir from Blackberries. Sorry, what you
>need for 'Framboise Noir' is Black Raspberries ( :-) - which I just happen to
>have, just waiting for my first attept to get far enough along to add the
>berries. I would love to hear how the blackberries work though. I have had
>very dissapointing results from using blackberries in beer in general. Too
>little flavor. A friend did try blending blackberries and raspberries once,
>and that did work very well. (I hope that didn't come off as being mean...)
Well, Larry, I am no horticulturist, but Rubus is Rubus, and all three
(blackberries, raspberries and black caps) are Rubus. So, it's not too
much of a stretch to call it a Framboise Noir, but I also plan to add som
raspberries, in spite of what Jim Liddil says ;-)
I don't speak French, but I believe that blackberries and mulberries are
both referred to as "murier" (or something close to that). So maybe this
would be more correctly called a Murier - maybe not.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: 8 Jul 94 16:08:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: skunks/rope
Ed writes:
>dining room, and one fine morning I came down for breakfast to see
>sunlight reflected all over the dining room, reflecting off my carboy.
>Damn. Despite the fact that the hops were well aged, and boiled for over
>70 minutes, the thing still has a definite skunk. So, Given that this
I read somewhere that a week or so in the dark at 50F (10C) will make skunky
beer become un-skunked. I once tried this with a sixpack of badly skunked
Newcastle Brown Ale (clear glass, sitting inches from a fluorescent light
for a couple weeks) and... IT WORKED! Perhaps you don't want to put your
pLambiek in the fridge now but during aging in bottles perhaps you can.
*******
Brian writes:
>I built up the [pedio] starter over 6 months, and it had
>a nice sour twang to it. the day I brewed, which was a week before I
>pitched I (did the primary with regular whitbread ale), I added some
>more wort & shook it up. I guess the extra O2 reacts with the pedio
>or something it produces to make the slime,
Exactly my experience. I was disappointed that my pedio starter was not
developing the classic "rope" but was going to pitch it anyway. A week
before pitching, I fed the starter with some fresh wort (introducing
some O2) and two days later, there was a whitish mass in the top of
the starter that looked like a wet cotton ball. Brian brings up a very
good point about not introducing O2 during bottling. I hadn't thought
about that, but will be extra careful from now on. By the way, my
2.5-year-old pKriek, which is quite sour, does not have any ropyness
in the bottle. Could the smartcaps I used have helped? Has anyone
had a commercial lambiek go "gloop" on them? I haven't.
*******
BTW, tried Handsens (Hansens? -- can't tell -- no label -- that probably
means it's pre-1983) Kriek last night for the first time (thanks Roger!)
and from the little bit I had, I would venture a guess that it may be my
favorite commercial Kriek. Their Gueuze is probably my favorite gueuze.
Both are assertively sour, but not so much as to overpower the other
complex flavors. By comparison, the Cantillon Gueuze I had last night
was rather one-dimensional. Don't get me wrong, I loved both, but the
Handsens was quite a bit more interesting.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 94 11:07:59 MDT
From: "Randy M. Davis" <rmdavis at mocan.mobil.com>
Subject: Sour Mash
In his listing of style guidelines for Belgian beers, Phillip R. Seitz,
states that a common problem in pLambic brewing is;
Papazian sour-mash. Sometimes generates a rancid, rotten
flavor. You'll know it when you taste it. See TCJHB
for brewing details.
While I know that this approach has nothing to do with the production of
pLambic, I have seriously considered using a sour mash method to achieve the
lactic sourness in an Oud Bruin style beer. I came across an article in
Zymurgy outlining the procedure and thought it might be the ticket. I believe
the piece was written by Dr. George Fix. I have not read Charlie Papazian's
revised TCJHB since I bought the first edition a number of years ago.
Is this type of procedure to be taken seriously or is it really a recipe for
disaster? I know that this style will not be easy but what I hoped to
accomplish was a good tart, refreshing brown ale. I had not considered the use
of fruit but maybe sour cherries would help. Should I look to aquiring
a pure lactobacillus culture or the use of lactic acid or is a sour mash
an option?
If anyone has had even moderate success with this style I would be grateful
for suggestions.
Thanks.
- --
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Randy M. Davis: Mobil Oil Canada Calgary, Alberta Canada |
| rmdavis at mocan.mobil.com |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 13:45:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl)
Subject: Oxygen? We Don't Need No Steenkin' ....
In Lambic Digest #390, Scott Bickham mused:
> One aspect of the secondary lambic fermentation I've been thinking
> about is the availability of oxygen. It seems like the better commercial
> versions, and probably homebrewed as well, are aged in wooden casks, which
> let a small amount of oxygen to permeate. Jim Liddil didn't ferment in
> wood, but odds are that his plastic fermenter is also semipermeable to
> molecular oxygen. Just a thought.
And just another data point: the best faux-lambic I've tasted to date
was a Kriek fermented entirely in glass, single-stage. I'd been
thinking the same thing as Scott has, until I tasted that one.
Wood was involved, however, in the form of French oak shavings.
= Martin Lodahl Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning, Pacific*Bell =
= malodah at pacbell.com Sacramento, CA USA 916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me! (Unk.) =
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End of Lambic Digest
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