Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Lambic Digest #0366
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Thu Jun 9 03:14:45 1994
Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA22361
(5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Thu, 9 Jun 94 03:14:41 -0400
Received: from localhost (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5a (LANCE 1.01)) id AAA26351 for reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu; Thu, 9 Jun 1994 00:30:10 -0600
Message-Id: <199406090630.AAA26351 at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Reply-To: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (postings only - do not send subscription requests here)
Errors-To: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
From: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #366 (June 09, 1994)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 00:30:10 -0600
Lambic Digest #366 Thu 09 June 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Cantillion and Vigneronne (Jay Hersh)
re;turbid mashing and traditions (Jim Liddil)
My turbid mash. ("DEV::FVH")
re: lambic digest #365 (Michael Sharp)
Hopduvel Pub Lambic listing -Part I (Michael Sharp)
amusing story and ?s ("DEV::FVH")
Re: turbid mashing -- an observation/question (Michael Sharp)
Mashola Procedure questions.. ("McGaughey, Nial")
Lab Pro in Sunnyvale, CA (Michael Sharp)
Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to:
lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to:
netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu
A FAQ is also available by netlib; say 'send faq from lambic' as the
subject or body of your message (to netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 1994 11:16:01 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at x.org>
Subject: Cantillion and Vigneronne
>Do they still make Vigneronne (also a grape based
>lambic)?
they do still seem to be making this however when I was at the brewery this
spring they didn't have it for sale. However sufficient graft as I mentioned
earlier got JP's son Jean to give us a bottle to bring home. :-)
JaH
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 8:17:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: re;turbid mashing and traditions
% ----------------------------------------------------------------------
%
% Date: 07 Jun 94 06:43:15 EDT
% From: Stephen George <74363.26 at CompuServe.COM>
% Subject: Kulminator pub lambic selections - 2
%
% Here's part two of the Kulminator pub's Lambic selections. As I live in
% Antwerp, I tend
% to patronize this place more than any other. I will make a later posting with
% some
% observations about other 'hot spots' on the Flanders circuit.
Will you please stop it! I am not in Belgium and you are driving me NUTS!
Send Beer. :-)
Mike writes in his ultimate wisdom:
(stuff deleted)
% Question: Shouldn't the flow of this portion of the chart really be:
%
% Taking of <----------------
% turbid mash
% |
% heating to 85C
% |
% Taking of <----------------
% turbid mash
% |
% heating to 85C
% |
% Taking of <----------------
% turbid mash
% |
% heating to 85C ----------->
Probably correct. I would not expect any person working for Lindemanns to give
out all the details. Of course they do produce such a fine product, NOT!
%
% Why do I ask this? Well, if all you do is pull off the liquid and hold it
% while continuing the main mash aren't you allowing the enzymes in the liquid
% to continue converting the sugars/starches that have been extracted?? Isn't
% this counter to the reason for doing a turbid mash in the first place??
While all this discussion has gone on has anyone pickup their Guinard and read
the procedure he outlines in detail? I think most of your questions will be
answered. The turbid mash is boiled, I asked JX about it. He also said a
number of brewers do things differently using step mashes. I asked Don
Feinberg to ask Boon what he does.
Of course to me this seems rather silly. The turbid mash method evolved from a
time when direct heating of mash tuns wasn't done. The extraction and
conversion rates were poor. Here we are in america making lambic in a far from
traditonal manner ( using pure cultures, fermenting in plastic, fermenting for
less than 2 years, lions and tiger and bear Oh My!). So what is the big deal
about doing a turbid mash. Sound like a waste of time and effort to get poor
extraaction. Even guinard says that after all the mash is ready to be run off
it is recirculated until it is clear. So I feel that using a step mash with
40% raw wheat should a good level of unfermentables provided you sparge with
boiling water. I beleive that even using such a mash scheddule that one can
convert all the starch in raw wheat. Wit brewers seem to get alot of
unfermentables in the wort with regular techniques (i.e Celis) And to further
throw tradition to the wind I agreee with Todd that if it worries you then
throw in apound of maltodextrin. Guinard thinks this would be a good way to
ensure the right amount of food. Also at 4 months my wort still turns iodine
purple and red.
Regardless of the food if the bugs don't grow then you still don't end up with
the right flavor. This happens in real lambic breweries. I also helps to have
alot of the right bugs. :-) Call me a heretic. I will now put on my kevlar
suit.
%
% Comments??? Am I a genious or an idiot? (or is this obvious and I'm
% just slow?)
I plead the 5th. :-)
Jim
------------------------------
Date: 8 Jun 94 11:27:00 CST
From: "DEV::FVH" <FVH%DEV.decnet at mdcgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: My turbid mash.
This was my attempt at a turbid mash profile. Modified from Sharp, Wilde
and Guinard. This should add to the confusion. No data points to go with this
so take it for what it's worth....
(ASCII graphics...)
6 gal recipe
Malt (2-row) Raw Wheat Water
==== ===== =====
8lbs 4.2 lbs 12qts (qt/lb)
Milled with GM Milled with GM 131F
| | |
| | |
+-----------------> Mash at 113F <-------------+
|
| <---- addition boiling H20
| (I skipped this part because I)
| (missed the 113 temp)
Mash at 126F
20 min
Taking of <----------------+
turbid mash | <---- addition boiling H20
heat to soft boil |
| Mash at 149F
| 15 min
Taking of <----------------+
turbid mash | <---- addition boiling H20
reheat to soft boil |
| Mash at 162F
| 15 min
Taking of <----------------+
turbid mash |
| |
reheated to soft boil ---->|
(about 9 qts) |
(3+3+3) Rest at 172F
20 min
|
|-----> sparge off 2 gal
|
|<---- added 6 gal boiling H20
| (in lauter tun, I like batch sparging)
Rest at 203F
5 min
|-----> sparge off 7 gal
|
(9 gl) boiling - annuated hops
| 3oz
|
cool with emmersion chiller
sieve/filter into 6.5 gal glass carboy
pitch American Ale yeast
|
|
Added french oak chips and Ped. after 1 week.
|
Add Brett. 2 weeks after Ped.
========
my comments:
I missed the first rest. My dough-in water was hotter than 131F. Oops!
The takings were mostly liquid with some grain(not much). About 3 qts out,
about 3 qts in at each stage. For 149F, I had to do a decoction of 5 qts. My
final water to grain ratio was less than 4 to 1. Could have used more
boiling water to raise the temp. Attenuated hops were 2 packages of hop tea
baked at 300F for 15 min. Nice and toasty. Should have sparged with more
H2O. Had to top off the carboy. After 3+ hours of boil, more than 3 gal of
liquid had evaporated. Iodine test before boil was blue. Wort turned
out to be darker than I had expected. Maybe to much carmelization?
OG was about 1.042 but at a higher than 60F temp. Need to recalibrate
that darned thermometer. More sparging would have also helped the OG.
This went pretty well. I did this all in my Coleman 40 qt chest cooler. Nice
size. No warpage after the 203 rest. Hmmm. No notes on how the Plambic is
progressing because it is still early. I have yet to add the Brett. It
will go in before the hot summer months.
If someone else decides to use this, please let me know how the corrections
worked and how much more water had to be added at each step when using the
113F rest.
Flame retardant suit on,
Dirk
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 10:05:27 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: re: lambic digest #365
[this isn't really from me, its from Stephen George 74363.26 at compuserve.com]
[his connection to the net insists on formating his text in strange ways]
Jim Busch replied to my previous posting:
> > Der Zeven Naties (Cantillon Druivenbier) 370 BeF
>
> Any info on what this one is? More grape "juice" experiments by
> Cantillion? Do they still make Vigneronne (also a grape based lambic)?
I think you're spot on. I was told that it's a muscat and lambic beer. My
visit to the Hopduvel would seem to confirm that as well. The reason I had
the price for this one is that I tried it. Seemed like a diluted Cantillon,
which it is. I wouldn't repeat the order, especially for $11.
Don't know about the Vigneronne. Anyone?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 10:06:27 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Hopduvel Pub Lambic listing -Part I
[again, this is a message from Stephen George 74363.26 at compuserve.com]
The 'popular' pub from Ghent is actually a ways off the beaten path. Once
locating it, I found they had a good selection of lambics and special
vintage beers.
BOON
Gueuze 37 cl 110 BeF
Kriek 37 cl 150 BeF
BRABUX (tot einde voorraed)
Caves Breughel Kriek 37 cl 150 BeF
CANTILLON
Gueuze 37 cl 150 BeF
Kriek 37 cl 195 BeF
Druivenbier (85 Lambic, 87 Muscat) 750 ml 300 BeF
Rose de Gambrinus (84 Lambic, 86 Framboise) 750 ml 400 BeF
Gueuze Grand Cru 83 750 ml 350 BeF
DE NEVE
Gueuze 37 cl 110 BeF
Kriek 37 cl 150 BeF
EYLENBOSCH
Gueuze 37 cl 120 BeF
Kriek 37 cl 160 BeF
HOPDUVEL (Cantillon?)
Gueuze 37 cl 120 BeF
Kriek 37 cl 150 BeF
Framboise 37 cl 100 BeF
TIMMERMANS
Faro 25 cl 70 BeF
Gueuze 37 cl 120 BeF
Kriek (van 't vat) 25 cl 85 BeF
Cassis 25 cl 95 BeF
Perzik 25 cl 95 BeF
Frambozen 25 cl 95 BeF
------------------------------
Date: 8 Jun 94 12:14:00 CST
From: "DEV::FVH" <FVH%DEV.decnet at mdcgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: amusing story and ?s
Last weekend, I made an attempt to brew Aaron's Abbey Ale. This is a
recipe posted by Andy Anderson in digest #297. I didn't have access to
all of the ingredients that Andy used so I improvised. For candi sugar,
I used 3/4 lb rock candy and 1/4 lb Brockmals barvarian malt candies.
Also, I opted for a different yeast than La Chouffe(couldn't find this).
I bought a bottle of Chimay abbey ale. I pitched the remaining 1/2 inch
of Chimay containing the yeast into the carboy and moved it into the
back extra bedroom(across the hall from the master bedroom).
The next day, I had active fermentation but the airlock was only slightly
up. A fair amount of krausen had formed. I had to go to a softball game
that night and left before my girlfriend got home. When I got home later
that evening, she told me of a reeking smell coming from our bedroom.
She said it smelled like someone stepped in something. We checked all
of our shoes and sniffed around the room but nothing. She asked if it
could be coming from the next door neighbors backyard. I said it was
extremely possible. The mother left for Denmark for 3 weeks and the
son decided to leave the droppings from 3 Rottweilers and 1 poodle in
the backyard until the day before she got home. Whey!!
We're down wind most of the time.
I checked the extra bedroom and the smell was there, also. Closer to
where my Plambic and Abbey ale are and it was more noticable. I smelled
the Plambic but nothing. I smelled the abbey ale and whoa! That was it.
Anybody else experience this with Chimay? Also, is there a chance I
am fermenting with bottling yeast? Hopefully, this will finish soon. I
may be looking for another place to ferment my beer.
Replies would be helpful.
Dirk
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 10:39:56 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Re: turbid mashing -- an observation/question
Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu asks (in private e-mail):
> The point about heating to 85C immediately makes sense.
>
> But don't you want to add the 85C liquid back to the mash to raise the
> mash temperature for "mash-out"?
Here are a few _guesses_. I'll happily collect votes on which one
you feel is correct.
You want to extract complex sugars and starches. After heating to 85C
you have deactivated the various enzymes that would break down the sugars.
Adding this liquid back to the main mash would then expose it to active
enzymes. You haven't made it impossble for the enzymes to do their work,
just more difficult.
And another guess:
You don't add it back for 'mash-out' because it would only require more
sparging of the grain to recover the wort you had. (the wort you
add back is going to have to filter through the bed and you're going to
have to wash it out of the grain _again_. this could only increase
your final volume)
Again, all thoughts and comments are welcome. I'm just hypothesizing here.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 06:42:00 PDT
From: "McGaughey, Nial" <nmcgaugh at hq.walldata.com>
Subject: Mashola Procedure questions..
>From: Mark Stickler <mstickle at lvh.com>
>Subject: Flanders Brown & L. delbruckii
>I made an attempt at Flanders/Brown last week using the following>
>grain bill (loosely based on Rajotte's Oud Bruin recipe)
>This was for 5 gallons. Per Rajotte I boiled/simmered for almost 4 hours
>and sure enough the stuff came out about as Red as Rodenbach!
Ok, so was the 4 hour boil part of the post mash boiling procedure, or was
it pre- mash for the adjuncts?
Ob Delbrukii: My 'Wit' that is based soley on Delbrukii cultures is coming
along nicely, but the previous batch (a milktoast weizen) has _diacetyl_ for
days, still! (been in keg, refrigerated for 3+ weeks)
So. What would anyone suggest for diacetyl reduction? modified temperature
rest? Get some toast and pour the beer on, with a spot of jam? (butter
butter butter)
Smelling butter for the rest of my life, I remain-
Nial McGaughey
Wall Data Product Development
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 17:00:38 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Lab Pro in Sunnyvale, CA
Hi,
A while ago Larry Lynch-Freshner posted the name and number of a retail
laboratory supply place in Sunnyvale. It turns out the info he posted
is wrong. For the record (standard disclaimer applies):
Lab Pro Inc.
1290 Anvilwood Court
Sunnyvale, CA 94089
(408)745-0222
FAX: (408)745-7462
They're very near the intersection of 237 and the Lawrence Expressway.
I stopped there and found that they deal mainly with
chemists. They do have some useful glassware, but don't expect exotic
microbiological stuff to be on hand. They did have a wide selection of
microscopes for those who may be interested but don't know enough about
what they want.
[for all of you who aren't in the Bay area -- or the U.S. for that matter --
please forgive me for posting such local info.]
--Mike
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
-------
