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Lambic Digest #0348
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Thu May 19 03:16:06 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #348 (May 19, 1994)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 00:30:11 -0600
Lambic Digest #348 Thu 19 May 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Mysteries (Sarah White)
Re: oats and drawing off mash liquid (Nick Zentena)
Various comments ("Phillip Seitz")
Re: yeast (Jeff Frane)
Flemish Ale recipe ("Daniel F McConnell")
Flemish Ale recipe
oat preparation (Bob Devine)
The Turbid Mash (Martin Lodahl)
Mail Order Help (exe00833)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 May 94 09:44:57 -0400
From: swh at ll.mit.edu (Sarah White)
Subject: Mysteries
This book must be the same I have seen on display for sale
at Drie Fonteinen, Place Herman Teirlinck 3, 1650 Beersel.
Exit 14 (Beersel) off of the E19 (Ring 0 toward Charleroi
from Zaventem); it is the second Exit 14. Remember to pass
on your right the nuclear power plant before exiting.
Drie Fonteinen is closed on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
Armand DeBelder, the chef and blender (one of two remaining
blenders in the world) is a charming guy who speaks excellent
English. His Gueuze has just been given the appelation
controlee by the ECBU.
There are also some non-English beer books available at
Drinks Wets, Exit 15 past Beersel in Rode-St. Gensius.
Also, in Redu, one exit past Rochefort on the A4/E411 I saw
non-English books on beer and even a big book with recipes
for cooking with the many different Belgian beers.
Every other year, there is another Bier Jarboek by Peter
Crombecq, as well, in Flemish. It provides flavor profiles,
using their sour/sweet/bitter flavor cube, for all of the
beers made in Belgium.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 May 94 09:57:52 EDT
From: zen at hophead.north.net (Nick Zentena)
Subject: Re: oats and drawing off mash liquid
> From: thomasr at ezrz1.vmsmail.ethz.ch (ROB THOMAS)
> Subject: turbid mashing
> it suggests a similar (IMHO strange) process. The grains are step
> mashed, but the liquor is removed to a mash copper prior to adding
> more hot water. The mash copper is insulated.
How about a different idea. Don't most of the enzymes go into
solution rather quickly? Also can we assume that the malt used
in traditonal lambics may be low in enzymes [at least low for a
high adjunct mash]? If so drawing off the liquid portion is just
an attempt to protect them from a too hot water infusion. Make any
sense?
> From: Mark Stickler <mstickle at lvh.com>
> Subject: Oats & Recipe Request
>
> If I'm using raw oats as part of the grain bill should I be cooking them
> prior to putting them in the mash? If so, how? Boil the Oats separately
> prior to adding them to the mash? If so, for how long, what ratio of
> water to Oats, should they be drained, if they don't absorb all of the
> water, before adding to the mash? Any help will be appreciated!
What kind of oats? If using flakes then just add them to the
mash. Flakes IMHO are too easy to not use. If you are using
something else you likely have to do a cereal mash. Beyond me. I
use flakes-)
Nick
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I drink Beer I don't collect cute bottles!
zen at hophead.north.net
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 May 94 08:37:16 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Various comments
Ed Hitchcock asks about the Chouffe yeast:
>
>It would appear that the yeast I grabbed from the LaChouffe bottle is not
>viable after all. By its appearance I would have guessed it was alive, it
>had that stick-together look, rather than the fluffy-floaty look that
>pasturized bottles (eg Celis White) have. Oh well. I'll leave the culture
>for a few more days to make sure it just wasn't severely depleated. I have
>heard good things about the LaChouffe yeast, has anyone else had problems
>culturing it?
I haven't had any trouble culturing it from the bottle, but I haven't
done it often. This strain is available from both the Yeast Culture
Kit Co. and Advanced Brewers Scientific, and for the couple of bucks it
costs you can at least be sure of getting a clean and healthy yeast.
Nial McGaughey comments on the Wyeast Weistephan Wheat Yeast..
>Hi. I was wondering If anybody has used this yeast to make a passable beer
>type other than a hefeweizen. (the strain used is pure delbrukii)
I believe you're incorrect on this one--the strain turns out to be just
a particular variant of saccromyces cerevisiae (sp?).
>Does this yeast simply enhance/work well with wheat, or can it do well with
>just barley?
I don't see any reason NOT to use it on other beers, assuming you'd
like the clovey phenolic flavor (which I love). In fact, I was
thinking of doing the reverse and using the Chouffe yeast on a wheat
beer. Go for it.
Mark Stickler gets his oats:
>
>If I'm using raw oats as part of the grain bill should I be cooking them
>prior to putting them in the mash? If so, how? Boil the Oats separately
>prior to adding them to the mash? If so, for how long, what ratio of
>water to Oats, should they be drained, if they don't absorb all of the
>water, before adding to the mash? Any help will be appreciated!
Depends on what you're doing. If you're using rolled oats, they're
already gelatinized and don't need pre-boiling. If you're making a
white beer, use a very long protein rest (45 mins-1 hour) to eat up the
gummy stuff. If you're planning something else I'll defer to some
other brewer who has more experience.
>Also, without sounding too demanding, I still haven't heard any
>suggestions on Goudenband or Rodenbach recipes. While they're not Lambic's,
>I don't think there is any other place where I could hope to find
>such recipe's besides Rajotte. Any help, again, will be appreciated. TIA.
There's a good reason for this--nobody's really figured out yet how to
make a good one. However, there are plenty of people working on it, so
I suspect this nut will be cracked in the relatively near future. The
basics seem to include a pilsner malt base, a reasonable amount of
caramel malt (i.e. 1-1.5 lbs in a 5 gallon batch), and probably some
Munich or Vienna. The kicker is getting the right fermentation bugs;
at the moment it appears that what's needed is a combination of
standard yeast (relatively clean tasting) and a lacto-like culture. Be
aware that most of Liefman's beers are blended, filtered, and
sweetened, so don't be discouraged if your beer doesn't come out
exactly like theirs.
I know that a couple of us in BURP are planning a split batch in which
we'll be pitching different bugs, but what have the rest of you been up to?
Mike Sharp? Dan McConnell?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 08:42:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: yeast
Nial McGaughey wrote:
> Hi. I was wondering If anybody has used this yeast to make a passable beer
> type other than a hefeweizen. (the strain used is pure delbrukii)
> Does this yeast simply enhance/work well with wheat, or can it do well with
> just barley?
>
I had a big argument with Dave about the description of this strain --
he won, but then he owns the company. According to Eric Warner, the
description should *not* be delbruckii but rather a specific variant of
S cerevisae. I believe that most of the distinctive flavor of a
Bavarian weizen comes from the yeast, and that wheat provides different
contributions -- in other words, the phenolic character is independent
of the grist.
I'm also convinced there is a close relationship between Belgian wit
strains and Bavarian weizens. If so, then the 3068 would be a very
interesting yeast to use with high-gravity beers brewed to a Belgian
mode rather than a German -- i.e., with 30% sugar ?
Why not try it and let us know?
- --Jeff
------------------------------
Date: 18 May 1994 11:56:10 -0400
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Flemish Ale recipe
Subject: Flemish Ale recipe
>From Mike:
>Also, without sounding too demanding, I still haven't heard any
>suggestions on Goudenband or Rodenbach recipes. While they're not Lambic's,
>I don't think there is any other place where I could hope to find
>such recipe's besides Rajotte. Any help, again, will be appreciated. TIA.
While not Goudenband or Rhodenbach, I can post a recipe for a Flemish
Ale that turned out rather nicely. Perhaps doubling the addition of
Special B would put you more in the *Brown* ballpark. I am still
working on this style to the exclusion of many others. Be careful with
brown or roasted malts, they tend to give a bitterness that clashes
unpleasantly with the sourness. Special B might be the secret.
For 5 gal.
7 lb 2-row (Schrier) malt
1 lb Wheat malt
1 lb Vienna malt
1 lb Crystal malt
.25 lb Special B
Mash at 69C for 1 hour, mash out at 77C. 20 IBU of bittering hops in
a 60 min boil (I used Hallertau, I think, but it doesn't really matter
bacause the hop level is so very low). Fermented at ambient basement
temperature ( 66F ) with a mixed culture of Leifmanns, a Lactobacillus
and the dregs of an Oerbier. After primary it was racked to an old 5 gal
oak barrel for a 6 week secondary. It turned out very sour, so I added
1 lb honey, then kegged and force carbonated, keeping it cold to prevent
refermentation. Most of it was consumed one week later (in one
evening) by thirsty Chicago area beer judges, but a small amount still
remains. To date it has not yet overcarbonated. DO NOT bottle this
recipe.
I thought that it was rather one-dimensional, but others liked it alot.
I think that the lack of complexity is a criticism for most of the small
scale pLambiks as well. Probably more residence time in the barrel
would have helped.
DanMcC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 11:39:44 -0700
From: Bob Devine <devine at postgres.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: oat preparation
Mark Stickler <mstickle at lvh.com> asks:
> If I'm using raw oats as part of the grain bill should I be cooking them
> prior to putting them in the mash? If so, how? Boil the Oats separately
> prior to adding them to the mash? If so, for how long, what ratio of
> water to Oats, should they be drained, if they don't absorb all of the
> water, before adding to the mash? Any help will be appreciated!
If you are using raw oats (or steel cut oats), you should cook
the oats beforehand to break up the starch matrix. If you don't
you will not get much extract at the standard mashing temps.
To gelatanize the oat's starch, cook it up just like you would
for oatmeal cereal -- (1) add to lots of water since, as you note, it
will absorb it, (2) cook slowly to avoid scorching for about 20-30
minutes. When done, it will be that pasty concoction you remember
from your childhood (it'll stick to your ribs and just about
everything else it touches so soak the pots to save clean-up time).
Bob Devine
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 12:00:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl)
Subject: The Turbid Mash
In Lambic Digest #347, ROB THOMAS had some questions on turbid mashing:
> I just saw Mike's ASCII plan for the turbid mash. First a question,
> what does everyone understand by taking off the turbid mash? Is
> this like a decoction (ie remove the thickest part), or the opposite,
> (remove the thinnest part) or neither (ie stir first then remove some).
My understanding is that it's the thinnest part that's drained off.
> Now the comments. I'm working without the paper in front of me,
> but van Oevelen (sp?) gives a very short description of the mash
> process. Though it has even less details than Mike's ASCII drawing,
> it suggests a similar (IMHO strange) process. The grains are step
> mashed, but the liquor is removed to a mash copper prior to adding
> more hot water. The mash copper is insulated.
Yes, this is the basic idea. The steps are achieved here through
additions of very hot water, and the turbid abstractions make
room for that new water in the mashtun.
> The upshot of this? Selective removal of the amylase that breaks
> starch up smallest, as well as removing most of the enzymes from
> the grains, allows dissolution of the starches (which takes a
> while) but slows their breakdown (usually fast). Hence a
> wort high in starches and dextrins.
>
> Needless to say, this may be complete fantasy on my part, but it
> amuses me to think about it.
No, I think you've got it!
Dr. Mussche made a couple of things very clear:
1. These starches and dextrins are what the Brettanomyces
will be working on during its long fermentation, and
2. He (Mussche) might not be telling us the whole truth.
He grinned impishly when he said this, but it certainly squares with
my own experience of Belgian brewers, who generally seem too amiable
to refuse to answer a question, but will smilingly answer with
"disinformation" if they feel you're getting too close to their
secrets ...
- Martin
= Martin Lodahl Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning, Pacific*Bell =
= malodah at pacbell.com Sacramento, CA USA 916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me! (Unk.) =
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 22:43:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: exe00833 <exe00833 at char2.vnet.net>
Subject: Mail Order Help
Howdy....
I'm pretty new at trying my hand at pLambic brewing. 1 1/2 years
ago I used a weizen extract recipe with 10 pounds of Door Country
(Wisconsin) cherries to make a pKriek. I used the Wyeast American Ale
yeast and some vials of Brett and Pedio I picked up at the AHA convention
in 1992. Last May I thought I had 5 gallons of Cherry Flavored Malt
vinegar. Last night it tasted really good. Only problem was that it is
so turbid that light barely passes through, even though a year ago it was
crystal clear.
I want to brew again, but this time I want to use unmalted wheat
instead of the Briess Weizenmalt. Since I'm basicly lazy and don't want
to get involved in decoction mashing, can I use an infustion mash with
wheat flakes?
Also, does anyone know of a good, reliable source for Brett, Pedio,
and unmalted wheat flakes? I sure would appreciate some help because I
better get started brewing soon. My five gallons is unlikely to last
several more years.
Thanks,
Jeff Brown, exe00833 at char.vnet.net
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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