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Lambic Digest #0355
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Sat May 28 03:30:01 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #355 (May 28, 1994)
Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 00:30:13 -0600
Lambic Digest #355 Sat 28 May 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
References (ROB THOMAS)
Looking for a scope (brewing chemist Mitch)
Turbid mash question. ("DEV::FVH")
My first pLambic is going... (Martin Wilde)
Plain old Rodenbach (Donovan Bodishbaugh)
Re: Rodenbach revisited (Jay Hersh)
My 'Belgian'/ Delbrukii data point ("McGaughey, Nial")
pRodenbach -Rodenbach Grand Cru (Brian P Lewis)
SIGNOFF LAMBIC (KJFISCHER)
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Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 10:57:38 +0200
From: thomasr at ezrz1.vmsmail.ethz.ch (ROB THOMAS)
Subject: References
hello all,
Here's a post for the researchers among us. It's a list of
"generally available" (to me anyway ) papers by verachtert
and coworkers on aspects of lambic fermentation, and written
in English:
microbiology and biochemistry of the natural wort fermentation
in the production of lambic and gueuze.
D. van Oevelen, Agricultura (Heverlee) 26(4) 353-505 (date?)
Yeasts in mixed culture with emphasis on lambic beer brewing.
H. Verachtert, Shanta Kumara, E. Dawoud, In Yeast: biotechnology,
and Bioengineering, eds Verachtert and De Mot, pp 429-473
Interactions between Enterobacteriaceae and S. cervisiae.
H. Verachtert, E. Dawoud, Shanta Kumara, YEAST 5 Spec. Issue 67-72
Identification of lambic superattenuating micro-organisms by the
use of selective antibiotics. Shanta Kumara, H. Verachtert,
J. Inst. Brew. 97, 181-185
Wort enterobacteria and other microbial populations involved
during the first stage of lambic fermentation, H. Martens,
E. Dwoud, H. Verachtert J. Inst. Brew. 97, 435-439
Synthesis of aroma compounds by wort enterobacteria during the first
stage of lambic fermentation. E. Dwoud, H. Verachtert J. Inst. Brew.
98, 421-425
Another reference kindly sent to me by Verachtert, but which I haven't
had a chance to get is:
Lambic and gueuze brewing: mixed cultures in action
H. Verachtert, Foundation Biotechnical and Industrial Fermentation
research, Vol. 7 Finland 243-263.
I'm almost certain I've got another couple of papers somewhere, but
I can't find them currently.
Rob.
p.s. how about collecting references like these for the faq, Mike?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 12:36:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: gellym at aviion.persoft.com (brewing chemist Mitch)
Subject: Looking for a scope
Greetings from a looooong-time lurker.
I believe I am comfortable enough to venture down the twisted path of the
plambic brewer ;-> , but I am looking to hedge my bets even more. Even before
discussions of reliable Brett sources, etc., I've been getting more interested
in yeast culturing. This is a direct result of 'regular' brewing, but with the
time involved in plambics, it becomes even more important to ensure that what
you are pitching is the actual thing.
So a (relatively) simple question. I am looking for a good microscope, but am
not sure which kind to get. Is a stereoscope required, or overkill?. They
are harder to find than the regular monocular scopes, so if I really do not
need stereo, I will not get it. Also, around which power range is necessary?
I am pulling this number out of the dark recesses of my brain, but I seem to
recall 400x as being a good number.
Personal email is fine for a response. I know most of you guys are scoping,
so what works for you ?
Cheers,
Mitch
btw, I am glad it was pointed out that the current Rodenbach is lousy. I
thought I was losing it, buying bottles and saying to myself, 'I know it
used to taste a HELL of a lot better than this !!'
- --
| - Mitch Gelly - | Zack Norman |
| software QA specialist, systems administrator, zymurgist, | is |
| AHA/HWBTA beer judge, & president of the Madison Homebrewers | Sammy in |
| - gellym at aviion.persoft.com - gelly at persoft.com - | Chief Zabu |
------------------------------
Date: 27 May 94 12:34:00 CST
From: "DEV::FVH" <FVH%DEV.decnet at mdcgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Turbid mash question.
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 08:10:29 PST
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: My first pLambic is going...
Well this weekend I finally did it... Started my pLambic.
I followed the "turbid" mash schedule layed out by Dr. Robert Mussche's
presentation at Homebrew U III. This is the same schedule Lindemanns
uses. The mash schedule favors starch. Dr. Mussche mentioned that the
pedio and brett need the extra starch/dextrins to sustain their long
fermentation.
Here's my ingredients and mash schedule:
8 gallon batch
10 lbs Belgian Pilsner Malt
5 lbs Soft Winter Wheat
2 oz 2yr old Northern Brewer leaf hops (aged 15 minutes at 300F)
2 oz 2yr old Mt. Hood leaf hops (aged 15 minutes at 300F)
Wyeast 1056 chico
- 10 minute rest at 118 degrees (should of been 113 - but within range).
Used 1 qt/lb of H20
- Infused with 194F water to 125F for 15 minute rest
- Pulled 1/3 of the liquid (yes liquid...) and raised to 185F. Returned
to mash to raise to 135F. Added 6 qts 194F H20 to 140F. Added heat
to 149F. 15 minute rest.
- Pulled 1/3 of the liquid and raised to 185F. Returned to mash to
raise to 154F. Added 6 qts 194F H20 to 158F. Added heat to 162F. 20
minute rest.
- Pulled 1/3 of the liquid and raised to 185F. Returned to mash to
raise to 166F. Added heat to 170F for mashout of 20 minutes.
- Sparged with 185F (should of been 203F) H20 to collect extract for
boiling.
As you can see I had problems with raising the temperature between the
steps. I ended up with about 6 gallons of water in my mash tun (Mussche
says the final water to grist ratio can be as high as 8 to 1). So next
time I may for go adding the water and just heat up the mash tun between
steps to save time.
The mash was a milky color until the 20 minute rest at 162F. I had no
problems sparging since I just took my time and sparged nice and slowly.
It took about 45 minutes to sparge and collect 10 gallons. My mash tun
had alot of greyish glop in at - must be from the wheat. The runoff was
just a bit hazy.
I boiled for 3.5 (Mussche says 5-6) hours with the hops added at the
beginning of the boil. Normally with that much hops, my garage would be
filled with the aroma of hops, but this time just a slight aroma...
After the boil was over, I tasted the cooled wort and it was very sweet
with just a tad of hop bitterness - but no flavor. My final gravity was
1050. The bottom of the boiler was filled with protein glob.
I will ferment with Wyeast 1056 (chico) in stainless until the gravity
drops to about 1025. I will then rack into a French Oak cask and add
the pedio, brett lambicus, brett brux, and the dregs from a Cantillion
Framboise bottle. I did not want all that cold break in the cask, thus
the initial ferment in a cornelius keg. Sometime later this year I will
add the raspberries and some vanilla extract for a unique touch.
I will keep you posted as I go!!!
martin
_________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 16 May 94 15:39:53 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Hi,
A few months ago at "Homebrew U" in Seattle there was a presentation made
by Dr. Roger Mussche. Since I wasn't in attendance I can't tell you
much about Dr. Mussche, but I was sent some notes taken during his talk.
In these notes the following "turbid mash" technique is presented:
(sorry about the ASCII graphics...)
Malt Wheat Water
==== ===== =====
Milling Milling 500L
100kg | 55C
| | |
+-----------------> Mash at 45C <--------------+
|
| <---- addition H20 at 90C
|
Mash at 52C
|
Taking of <----------------+ <---- addition h20 at 90C
turbid mash |
| Mash at 65C
| |
Taking of <----------------+ <---- addition H20 at 90C
turbid mash |
| Mash at 72C
| |
Taking of <----------------+
turbid mash |
| |
Heating to 85C ----------->|
|
Filtration at 78C
|
| <---- washing with H20 of
| 95C (in lauter tun)
|
(5-6h) boiling - annuated hops
| 3kg/500L
|
Hop - sieve - filter in coolship
Cooling and air-inocculation
|
|
Fermentation in wooden barrels or
wood-coated tanks
========
my comments:
Yeah, I know this isn't really very clear in some spots (how much wheat
is being used, how much H20 is added at the different steps, etc) but
thats what is on the sheet. We can only guess from here.
Why would anyone want to do such a thing? The objective is to obtain
wort which contains a lot of complex dextrins. These are used by the
Brettanomyces (and possibly other critters) in the later stages of the
fermentation. The use of these dextrins is studied in
Microbiology and Biochemistry of Lambic Beer Overattenuation
by H.M. Chandana Shantha Kumara
PhD thesis, November 1990, Katholieke Universiteit te Leuven
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 13:12:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donovan Bodishbaugh <dfb at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Plain old Rodenbach
I've followed the dishwater Rodenbach and faux Grand Cru thread
with dismay. Regardless of what you call it, Rodenbach has always been
one of my very favorite beers, although I cannot get it locally, and
haven't had one in several months. I have only sampled what is available
commercially in this country. We have a Friday afternoon beer cooperative
at the marine lab where I work, and whenever one of us travels to the big
city (you know, more than 10,000) we try to pick something up. Other
people leave with $60 and come back with four cases, I come back with
maybe one, maybe less. This past weekend I picked up some Rodenbach,
among other things, and I just noticed something amazing about the
labelling. Nowhere on the bottle are the words Grand Cru to be found. It
is labelled Belgian Red Ale only. The label looks otherwise unremarkable
and familiar though, no foil, same old neck label. Wasn't Grand Cru on
there somewhere before? The paperboard 4 pack holder is even more
amazing. The gothic Grand Cru logo has been covered up by cleverly
designed red and white striped stickers that blend with the front panel
design. The side panels are similarly covered by brown stickers. Perhaps
the worm has turned on this matter. Today being Friday, I will be sipping
one of these beers within a few hours. Hopefully it will not be
dishwater. I'll let you know.
BTW, I usually do my beer shopping in the same town, probably at
the same store as one of the dishwater posters (Todd). Either there has
been a bad batch in the past few months as Phil reported, or I have
absolutely no taste. You'll have to judge for yourself, since I'm not
really able to rule objectively on the latter. I've got my fingers
crossed for today though.
Rick Bodishbaugh
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 15:07:54 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at x.org>
Subject: Re: Rodenbach revisited
>I have no real feelings one way or the other on this one, except it is a
>bit unfortuneate that the beer is mislabeled. But Jay, just what do you
>expect the importer and brewery to say?? Yeah, we dumped the stuff and
>we dont care?? I mean we are dealing with a very vested interest here. If
>several knowledgable beer lovers have had rotten Rodenbach here, you
>gotta wonder what gives.
Jim, if the importer was going to lie then why wouldn't he just have said
that the stuff really was the Grand Cru?
changing the subject slightly. Joyce and I recently found that certain beers
we tried in Belgium were far less tasty there then here. One that specifically
came to mind was the Gouden Carolus which had almost no sour character in the
bottle we tried there, but the one we tried here had a nice sourness to balance
the sweetness.
Anyone else experienced similar phenomenon, i.e. an older exported Belgian
tasting better here than in Belgium?
JaH
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 May 94 13:44:00 PDT
From: "McGaughey, Nial" <nmcgaugh at hq.walldata.com>
Subject: My 'Belgian'/ Delbrukii data point
Hi all, I remember a comment regarding my post about the Wyeast Delbrukii
strain ( its suitability for making a 'Belgian' white beer... ) telling me
to try it out and see what happens. well...
6 lbs belgian pale malt
1 lb crystal 80l
.5 lb vienna
.5 lb munich
4 lbs belgian wheat malt
1 oz cascade 6.5 AAU 60 mins
1 oz cascade 6.5 AAU 5 mins
2 oz crushed coriander added at end of boil
.75 oz dried orange peel added at end of boil
Wyeast Weiheistephan Yeast (delbrukii)
1 tbspoon gypsum
1 tbspoon irish moss added 15 mins before end of boil (gads!!)
1 teaspoon yeast nutrient
step mash
wort recirculate for 1/2 hour in picnic mash cooler/manifold
60 minute boil, immersion chill
O.G. 1.060 fermenting at 66 deg
Comments: wort is kind of gray greenish at pitching time and has a strong
coriander smell (I wonder why:) with orange and then a bit of hops under it.
After a week in the primary the wort has a good layer of gunk on top of it
(brownish, _very_ gummy, almost like swiss cheese) and has a spicy banana
smell to it and is darkish brown..
More info as the saga continues....
Ob Delbrukii note: the yeast was from a slurry of a previous batch and there
was hardly any on the bottom of the fermenter, most of it had been scooped
out from the primary's krausen..
Nial McGaughey
Wall Data Product Development
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 May 94 16:19:10 MDT
From: Brian P Lewis <bplewis at mocan.mobil.com>
Subject: pRodenbach -Rodenbach Grand Cru
I've been following the discussions on the pseudo Grand Cru from Rodenbach with
some interest. Rather than focusing debate on how the poor quality of that
batch may have come about, is anyone interested in commenting on the fact that
the company apparently set out to deliberately mislead it's north american
customers? In fact they probably got away with it in terms of duping the
majority of their clientele. Thanks to your educated palates and questions to
the company and shipper, the truth is out; or is it? How many people outside
this forum know that the staff from both Rodenbach and the U.S. importer freely
admitted that they shipped a different product, ie, Rodenbach Classic, in Grand
Cru bottles. Perhaps this is a scandal waiting to be broken. It could rival
the Austrian anti-freeze scandal in terms of its impact on the Belgian brewing
industry. On second thought, mis-labelling beer is not really on a par with
putting glycol in wine, is it!
Anyway I would like to throw out a few questions to the forum attendees. Is
there a price differential between Classic and Grand Cru at the retail level? If
so, was this beer sold at Classic vs. Grand Cru prices to give the consumer some
subtle clue that he was being hoodwinked? Is this practice legal in the United
States? Is it legal in Belgium? Given the Belgian brewing industry's interest
in promoting and protecting the integrity of their products is there an agency
in Belgium that should be informed of this attempted sleight of hand? How about
the Belgian government: would they have a department that would like to hear
this story? Is it possible that Rodenbach, having been caught in one lie,
committed another by claiming that the beer was merely Classic instead of Grand
Cru, when they really may have knowingly shipped a bad batch? Finally, given
that the company admits to false advertising regarding their flagship product,
why would you ever buy their products again, at least in north america?
I look forward to your public comments on any or all of thes questions.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 17:54:22 -0600 (CST)
From: KJFISCHER at stthomas.edu
Subject: SIGNOFF LAMBIC
Please sign me off of the Lambic service.
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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