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Lambic Digest #0353
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Subject: Lambic Digest #353 (May 26, 1994)
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 00:30:08 -0600
Lambic Digest #353 Thu 26 May 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
de Bierbommel (Stephen George)
Re: What's in Rodenbach bottles (Dave Resch)
Rodenbach/comments on Brett sources (Todd Gierman)
What's in your Rodenbach (Jay Hersh)
Wooden barrels
RIMS/Rodenbach/Aeonbrau (Michael Sharp)
Factoids (Michael Sharp)
Rodenbach Woes (C.R. Saikley)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 25 May 94 07:11:04 EDT
From: Stephen George <74363.26 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: de Bierbommel
Greetings all,
I am a Digest lurker about to come into light...I've been living and working
in Antwerp
for the last month, and thought I'd relate the occurances of last weekend.
This past Sunday marked National Beer Day, and with it the first-ever
Bierbommel - a
chartered train devoted exclusively to the celebration (and consumption) of
Belgian
beer! The 500 meter, 1200 passenger train criss- crossed Flanders from 9 AM to
11
PM, affording all the chance to sample the wares of 17 brewers (24 different
beers in
all), while safely riding through the pleasant countryside.
The train was organized by the Objectieve Bierproevers, a national beer
consumer's
group (I've seen them mentioned here before). This year marks the group's
10th
Anniversary, and to celebrate, they brought us the Bierbommel.
The brewers were organized in two mail cars; with another 8 passenger cars for
the
participants. The whistle-stops across Flanders provided convenient
restocking
points for the more popular products. A non-smoking car would have been a
plus...Restrooms were, surprisingly, not a problem!
Enthusiastic passengers must have camped out in some instances. The train was
nearly full by the time we boarded in Antwerp at 10:30 AM. Many seemed to have
travelled together with their entire local 'proever groups. There were also a
few
renegade hawkers and wayward gaijin aboard.
Among the fare on offer were familiar products from some of the larger
breweries,
some lesser-known smaller brands and a few reportedly experimental or
soon-to-be-unveiled products. Some of the high/low lights (all beers were
draft from
(metal) kegs, 40 BeF for 25 cl):
The two 'lambic' products: De Troch Faro and Timmermans Blanche-Wit (Lambic);
the Faro, 2.5 vol% and not very beer-y; certainly didn't seem lambic. The
Blanche-Wit. Definitely tasted witty; 3.5 vol%. Seems they've given the wit
treatment
to a lambic product. Liked the product as a wit, but it didn't scream
'LAMBIC' either.
Du bocq La Gauloise Blonde - an excellent flavor. I couldn't put my finger on
it
exactly; sort of herbal/woody.
Villers Fumee d'Anvers - this was apparently a test venue for this smoke beer.
Call it
what you will, I didn't think it had much taste at all. I guess one wouldn't
complain
about 'Liquid Smoke'.
Van Eecke Hommelbier - 'hop beer'. It was definitely hoppy; I like a well
hopped
beer; the aftertaste on this one seemed a little overkill.
(Aside, perhaps one of the Flemish-speakers might comment on the origin of
'bommel'. I looked in a Flemish dictionary; it showed bommel as relating to
hommel
and also to trains, but the etymology was a little beyond me).
De Koninck Cuvee. This was a special product they started offering last year
to tie in
with 'Antwerp-Cultural Capital of Europe '. It's stronger than its more
famous
namesake; the alcohol overwhelmed the De Koninck-ness; to me, there's a spicy
flavor in DK that you don't find in every glass; the alcohol just buried that.
Perhaps I should stop there lest I seem to have tried them all ;-) Other
brewers
featured were: St. Jozef, Lefebvre, Van den Bossche, St. Guibert, De Kluis
(only the
wit), Moortgat, Bios, Liefmans (kriek, not Goudenband), John Martin, Straffe
Hendrik
and Palm.
The first stop in Brugge also featured a brewery tour. We opted out as we'd
just boarded. I lack for being able to post which one; may have been the
Straffe
Hendrik. I missed some of the particulars as my Flemish isn't, well, just
isn't.
I spoke with some of the event organizers. Unfortunately, the 'bommel may not
be
repeated in the near future. It was apparently quite expensive to stage. The
OBP
kept the price of admission low; 200 BeF or about $6. They expected great
publicity,
and they received it. I expect their ranks increased smartly over the weekend
(I
signed up).
I received my starting info from OBP. There was a posting about joining in
LD# 351.
The magazine (Flemish) is worth it; lots of stuff that doesn't lack for being
in Flemish
(like the new beers, a comparison of lambic beers by bacteria count, etc).
You get 4
issues with the 600 BeF fee, plus, if you happen to visit Belgium, there are
lots of
events. The VP mentioned is also the proprietor of Antwerp's best beer cafe,
the
Kulminator; info available in Jackson.
Mea culpas if this offends the gentle reader's reader. My CI$ navigator takes
liberties with the formatting.
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 08:33:47 MDT
From: resch at craycos.com (Dave Resch)
Subject: Re: What's in Rodenbach bottles
>Jay Hersh commented on the Rodenbach we've been receiving and Vanberg &
>DeWolf's response that we're getting regular Rodenbach in Grand Cru
>bottles. I must say that I find this extremely difficult to believe,
>and that's putting it as a gentleman. The Rodenbach I've had so far in
>this country has been amongst the worst commercial beer I've ever
>experienced--watery, dishtowel flavors, etc. Regular Rodenbach is not
>as robust as the Grand Cru, but it tastes nothing like this.
I agree completely with Phil Seitz on this one. I loved the regular
Rodenbach that I tasted in Belgium a few years ago. The stuff we are
getting here is definitely not the same. The first time I tasted the
Rodenback here, I thought I must have gotten a single bad bottle. I
tried several more bottles bought at different sources and they were all
same. I'll wait for the "good stuff", thank you!
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 10:09:14 -0500
From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: Rodenbach/comments on Brett sources
A number of recent posts have commented on the quality of exported
Rodenbach. Indeed, Phil Seitz recently stated:
>I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I really think we've had some bad
>beer dumped on us. One (perhaps) piece of supporting evidence is the
>rumor that Rodenbach was having some serious fermentation problems a
>short time back. I gather things have been cleared up, but I suspect I
>know where the bad beer went to.
I am happy that somebody who is in a position to know has come forward to
say that, in fact, the emperor is not wearing any clothing. I have had a
hard time, until now, reconciling my own impressions of exported Rodenbach
with all of the rave reviews that one finds.
I purchased a bottle of Rodenbach from a local merhcant back in January.
Admittedly, expectations were high. Unfortunately this stuff didn't
deliver - not even close. Appearance was reddish brown, absolutely no head
with low carbonation, which was fine with me. However, it was absolutely
lacking in the anticipated flavor. It was only mildly acidic and
incredibly insipid. Its complexity consisted of a sensation that one often
percieves when visiting a pier or harbor: oily brine with that ever present
odor of decaying crustaceons. I had no idea this stuff was brewed with
bilge water! I half expected to find barnacles in the empty bottle. Of
course, I fought off the urge to dump it and drank the entire bottle, just
in case it is an acquired taste. However, at $3.99 a bottle I was a bit
chagrined. They are really shooting themselves in the foot with this
stuff; I am truly gun-shy when it comes to purchasing their product (as
export). I think that it is up to the importer to demand a better quality
product.
- --------------------------------
About 7 months back there was a big flap over the quality of Brett cultures
being offered by vendors. The gist of the whole thing was that a couple of
vendors were selling cultures that were almost certainly not Brett
cultures, as determined by metabolic assays, microscopic inspection, and
sensory analysis. One vendor, upon realizing the problem, put forth a
recall. No vendors were named, but it is assumed that the information was
spread word of mouth. So in the interest of setting the record straight I
would like to post some updated information: Brewers Resource is now
selling a Brett culture that can be called authentic. Some previous
cultures appear to have been problematic. The last culture that I looked
at was dated 10-93, but was purchased and sent to me in December. My guess
is that it is Saccharomyces that either contaminated the Brett stock or was
inadvertantly streaked and sold as Brett. These cultures were sold as agar
slants. The new cultures (the authentic ones) are sold as liquid cultures
with bits of agar in suspension.
What it comes down to is this: you will never know whether it was any
specific culture that failed to provide you with Brett character. Even
legitimate cultures may not provide the desired effect. Consider the
diversity of brewing strains of S. cerevisiae. A similar diversity no
doubt exists for Brettanomyces. One approach is to throw in every strain
that you can get your hands on. Often people will attempt to use bottle
cultures, hoping that what they just drank provided some clue as to what
the dregs might do for their p-lambic - a reasonable approach, IMHO.
Cantillon and Boon bottle cultures produce some fairly striking
characteristics (I should mention once again that more recent bottles of
Boon Gueuze do not appear to contain a substantial Brett population on
account of a new method of blending - so I am told - I have found good
levels of Brett in the Faro, though). The beauty of the fermentation of
p-lambics is that you can, more or less, add as you go. So, you can add
the Brett cultures as you acquire them, even if it is several months
following the primary fermentation.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 11:36:10 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at x.org>
Subject: What's in your Rodenbach
regarding Phillip Seitz comments on my posting
>Jay Hersh commented on the Rodenbach we've been receiving and Vanberg &
>DeWolf's response that we're getting regular Rodenbach in Grand Cru
>bottles. I must say that I find this extremely difficult to believe,
>and that's putting it as a gentleman. The Rodenbach I've had so far in
>this country has been amongst the worst commercial beer I've ever
>experienced--watery, dishtowel flavors, etc. Regular Rodenbach is not
>as robust as the Grand Cru, but it tastes nothing like this.
Phil, while the Rodenbach you may have had might have been spoiled, there
is clearly no doubt that what I posted is correct. Having confirmed it
directly with the importer. Sarah White also confirmed this directly during
her recent (early April) visit to the brewery. Perhaps you would be more
satisfied to call Vanberg & DeWolf yourself. They are located in Cooperstown,
NY, which is in the same area code as Binghamton. Sorry I don't have the
number handy, perhaps someone else does. Or possibly you would prefer to call
the brewery. I forget the country code for Belgium, but the brewery number is
051/22.34.00, or maybe you should just go there and bring some bottles back
yourself as both I and Sarah have done.
I am more than a little annoyed, that you cite some vague rumor of the brewery
having fermentation problems over direct reports from both the importer and the
brewery itself, both of which are very recent. So I guess unless we ship you
there yourself we're not to be believed.
JaH
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 09:35:48 -0700
From: "Richard B. Webb" <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>
Subject: Wooden barrels
While looking through an old copy of The Herb Companion (June/July 1991),
I noticed an article about making herbal vinegar that had info on
a company that makes wooden barrels. I have sent them a slug-mail
request (hey, what do you do, are you still in buisiness, how much, etc),
and I can forward any information that they send me to this forum.
Or you can ask them themselves. Here's the address:
Barrel Builders
P.O. box 268
St. Helena, CA 94574
Standard disclaimers, blah, blah, blah.
Happy hunting!
Rich Webb
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:44:19 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: RIMS/Rodenbach/Aeonbrau
winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead) writes:
> Subject: Some comments/questions
>
> I'm currently in the process of building a brewing system. I anyone using
> a RIMS system to make lambics?
Yes.
> My guess is that all that raw wheat would lead to some kind of problem.
not yet.
The only time I've had a problem is when my false bottom colapsed and grain
filled my pump head. (a real bummer since I was about 3/4 of the way through
mashing ~50lbs of grain)
> I ordered a book entitled "Lambic, Faro, et Gueze" from this outfit in New
> York called "Librairie Francaise". It's written by Raymond Buren (I think),
> and it's in French. If you'd like details on getting a copy, email me.
Why don't you just post the details?
We're all expecting a book review too...
> I'm going to try to translate the "Lambic, Faro, et Gueze"
> book as an excercise if it's not too long (mostly because my French stinks
> anymore), and I'm wondering if people mind if I post chunks of it that I
> find interesting.
Is anyone here _not_ interested??
> More seriously --
>
> My two-month old pLambic is still cloudy, and smells disgusting. I'm
> wondering whether or not the Brett took hold. I was planning on doing
> a SG reading, and if it comes out above 1.020 perhaps adding another Brett
> culture on two. Thoughts? Comments?
The extra brett. couldn't hurt. I'd venture a guess that all you really
need is some (a lot of?) time.
"Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com> writes:
> Subject: What's in Rodenbach bottles
>
> Jay Hersh commented on the Rodenbach we've been receiving and Vanberg &
> DeWolf's response that we're getting regular Rodenbach in Grand Cru
> bottles. I must say that I find this extremely difficult to believe,
> and that's putting it as a gentleman.
I've also heard what Jay did & I heard it first hand too.
> The Rodenbach I've had so far in this country has been amongst the worst
> commercial beer I've ever experienced--watery, dishtowel flavors, etc.
Worst or really just a bad version of Rodenbach. I agree that it isn't
what I'd like but is it reall the worst beer you've ever experienced?
> I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I really think we've had some bad
> beer dumped on us.
More likely what we have the marketing folks intended to give us.
(note: I don't mean Don. I've had numerous talks with him & find it
hard to believe he would do this.)
> One (perhaps) piece of supporting evidence is the
> rumor that Rodenbach was having some serious fermentation problems a
> short time back. I gather things have been cleared up, but I suspect I
> know where the bad beer went to.
Can someone suggest as to where this rumor started? Its the first I've
ever heard of it. Either my 'contacts' aren't keeping me up on things
or this really is a rumor.
"Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com> writes:
> Subject: New Yeast Vendor
>
> Lambic Digesters may be interested in a new yeast vendor, the Aeonbrau
> Co., run by Brian Nummer
I think Brian is on-line here (ban5845 at tntech.edu). If he really still is,
I hope he can post a little bit on the origins of his strains.
(lets just not have an infinite EasyLambic thread ala Jack S. -- though
Brian has been very quiet in the past so its probably not necessary)
I'd also be interested in discussing how he keeps and verifies the stability
of his mixed cultures. QC is a real bitch with these things.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:54:48 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Factoids
Hi,
I was just doing a little work on my archives and I thought I'd share some
statistics:
The archives (both from the mailing list days & the digest) total 65,177 lines
or 2,550,010 characters. This is about 1200 pages. (I wonder how much of
that is really useful?)
There are currently 362 subscribers.
Yeah, I know this is a drop in the bucket comapred to HBD, but I still
find it amusing.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:48:20 PDT
From: zeiss!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Rodenbach Woes
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
>Jay Hersh commented on the Rodenbach we've been receiving and Vanberg &
>DeWolf's response that we're getting regular Rodenbach in Grand Cru
>bottles. I must say that I find this extremely difficult to believe,
>and that's putting it as a gentleman. The Rodenbach I've had so far in
>this country has been amongst the worst commercial beer I've ever
>experienced--watery, dishtowel flavors, etc. Regular Rodenbach is not
>as robust as the Grand Cru, but it tastes nothing like this.
Sorry Phil, but I believe Jay is right. Jay's comments are completely
consistent with the picture that was painted for me when I visited
Rodenbach last November. My info came from Eric Deseure, who is
Rodenbach's main marketing guy, and also ran their MIS system(!)
Eric's reasoning was that you had to have spiffy labels to sell beer
in the US, and the Grand Cru labels far outshined the brown glass
colored labels on Rodenbach Classic. Furthermore, the oak barrels
depicted on the Grand Cru labels were part of Rodenbach's claim to
fame, and they wished to leverage that as much as possible. So they
began shipping Rodenbach Classic under the Grand Cru label.
Last January or so, some of us got together (Mike Sharp, Pete Schlossberg,
Tom Dalldorf), and tasted imported "Grand Cru" (read Classic), along
side of hand carried Grand Cru. They were indeed different beers, but
no dishtowels.
I'm curious about this rumor of fermentation woes at Rodenbach. Where
did this originate? I find it hard to believe that they would go to
all the trouble of re-introducing their beers to the US market, putting
warnings about drunk pregnant women on the label, shipping overseas, etc.,
only to blow it by dumping a bad batch and turning everyone off. New
product introductions entail delicate situations, and Eric appreciates
this.
CR
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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