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Lambic Digest #0295
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Wed Mar 9 14:48:00 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #295 (March 09, 1994)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 11:42:26 -0700
Lambic Digest #295 Wed 09 March 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Phil's how-to-bru, Belgian style (Conn Copas)
Lactic acid (amounts) (ROSS)
Wyeast Belgian and Artevelde (Jim Liddil)
Travel information for Belgium ("Phillip R. Seitz")
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Date: Tue, 8 Mar 94 11:48:27 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Phil's how-to-bru, Belgian style
Phil asked for discussion, so here it comes!
>
> A) Many white beers have an orangey flavor, but it's now apparent that
> this comes from fresh coriander seed rather than from orange
> peel. Boiling dried standard-type orange imparts a ham-like
> aroma that will lose you points and contribute little to the
> finished beer.
>
I have cold-infused fresh eating orange peel, and didn't get a ham aroma. OK,
it may not have had the authentic bitterness, but it certainly added interest
and was better than nothing. One thing we need to resolve: must the peel be
dry for flavour reasons, or is this simply for storage convenience?
>
> 2) Doubles. This is a tough beer to brew, as there still isn't a lot of
> conventional wisdom regarding how to do it.
>
I don't personally rate doubles as that great a challenge. The yeast is not as
idiosyncratic as with some other styles, and the flavour is robust enough that
it will mask minor mistakes. It seems to me a question of getting the right
combination of dark malts, dark sugar, and boil conditions. OK, so the wisdom
isn't in writing yet, but I'm sure us net brewers could converge on
something fairly rapidly.
>
> 3) Oud Bruin. If doubles are hard, these are excrutiatingly hard to brew so
> far, and I'm not convinced that anyone over here really knows how to
> do it. However, there are a few things to keep in mind:
>
> A) The flavor and aroma should be a mix of fruity esters and some
> acetic sourness. Some commercial examples (Oud Zottegem,
> Rodenbach) can be quite sour, while others (Liefmans, Vichtenaar,
> Felix) are much sweeter. However, these sweeter brews are quite
> sour in the fermenter, and are later filtered and sweetened. This
> is very hard for a homebrewer to do.
>
This is the first time that I have heard of acetic sourness in relation to
browns/reds. Rajotte told us a while back that he prefers to use a witbier
yeast. A number of people have commented how De Dolle's lactic sourness is
reminiscent of Rodenbach. On the other hand, some drinkers (myself definitely
excluded) regard Rodenbach as too extreme in comparison to, say, Liefmans. One
reason could obviously be that Liefmans is sweetened. Less obviously, is it
possible that we have a similar situation to that existing between Boon and
Cantillon, where the brew with the acetic acid is regarded as harder?
The quality which sets Rodenbach apart from Liefmans, IMHO, is its oxidation
products, which partly come about from 2 years' wood ageing. If anyone has a
fast-track alternative, I would love to hear about it! Once we go down that
route, blending starts becoming an issue, and this is somewhere where
information is definitely lacking. The straightforward notion of blending is
that two or more brews are combined so that features lacking in one are
provided by the other. But it could go deeper than that. I have been
wondering for some time about the biochemical effect of blending two brews at
different stages of maturity. For example, if one brew is heavily oxidised,
does the younger brew act to restore some sort of equilibrium?
Another thought: tasters typically speak about acidity and fruitiness as two
separate entities. I personally don't think the two can be distinguished that
cleanly, ie, acidity often leads to a perception of fruit as well. Old milk
usually tastes fruity as well as sour, and I don't think that's completely due
to esters.
>
> 4) Triples. These should be high in strength (1.090s, for instance) but have
> nice, light body. They should not have fruity esters, but can be a bit
> malty or spicy and even show some noble hop character.
> This may be the one area where Wyeast Belgian might be of use.
> Under the right conditions it can produce a lot of Chimay-type flavors.
> However, ferment very cool (60F) if you try this.
>
I'm slightly confused here. I have rarely encountered significant phenols in
a triple, yet a Chimay-like yeast is being recommended?
>
> There you go, folks--Phil's Belgian how-to book. I'm sure there are some
> mistakes and misconceptions here, so let's get at it. We're not going to brew
> better beer until we get them cleaned up and fill in the blanks!
>
Nice work Phil. Get your 'book' published and do the brewing world a favour :-)
PS: I take it that you didn't encounter any Saisons?
Conn V Copas C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:51 EST
From: ROSS at mscf.med.upenn.edu
Subject: Lactic acid (amounts)
Date sent: 8-MAR-1994 14:47:44
I recently read the Lambic FAQ and was interested in trying the
technique of added lactic acid to achieve sourness. Can anybody please
suggest some amounts/gallon that I should use. Would it be best to use
less in a batch containing raspberries which tend to have a lot of tartness/
sourness themselves. What about with other fruits or in a non-fruit lambic.
--- Andy Ross ---
University of Pennsylvania
Medical School Computer Facility
ross at mscf.med.upenn.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 15:15:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Wyeast Belgian and Artevelde
Phil wrote:
% 1) I think that anybody reading this who has a package of the original Wyeast
% Belgian should throw it out. Do this NOW, please! While I have had one
% or two beers made with this that have had authentic Belgian character,
% the VAST majority of beers I've tasted are full of banana and solvent
% notes that are totally inappropriate. There are now many other yeasts
% on the market that merit exploration, and I think this one has lived out
% its useful life.
I could not agree more. I had an ale at our last homebrwers meeting brewed
with this yeast and it tasted like a chemical soup. Not pleasant at all.
%
% 2) Do NOT ferment your beers over 70F. Pierre Rajotte mentions in his book
% BELGIAN ALE that some Belgian brewers ferment as high as 80F; while
% I'm sure it was not his intention, this one statement has led to the
% spoilage of more batches of beer (including many of mine) than I care to
% think about.
% Over the course of eight trips to Belgium including many brewery
% visits I have never seen a high-temperature fermentation, and most
% brewers there recoil at the very thought. Your beer will be MUCH
% better if you keep it cool while it ferments.
But don't some breweries condition at warm temps or is this just more Jackson
mythology?
Also can anyone provide me information on Artevelde belgian ale. The only
reference I found is in Rajotte's book.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Mar 94 20:44:39 -0400
From: "Phillip R. Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Travel information for Belgium
Somehow it seems that everybody but me is planning to visit Belgium in
the next month or two. In response to some inquiries by one of our
local BURPers I prepared the following. Since it's unlikely to go out
of date soon I'm posting it where there have been other, similar
inquiries recently. Presumably it can go into the archives for people
to dredge up later. My apologies for the length.
****************
Tips for traveling in Belgium, by Phillip Seitz
Over the course of eight trips to Belgium I've gleaned a few shreds of
knowledge that might make your trip a little more interesting or, at
least, a little more comfortable. These are in no special order, and
shouldn't be likely to change any time soon.
1) Money. American Cirrus ATM cards work in most of the ATM
machines in Belgium. Look for the Mr. CASH logo, which appears on
bank machines as well as point-of-sale vendors. This includes
BANCONTACT. This can be handy not only for cash but for gas
purchases; many gas stations are empty at night, but can be turned on
by the insertion of an ATM card in the appropriate slot. ATM
withdrawals give you the best possible exchange rate, with no
commission (other than what your bank may charge). Call 1-800-4-
CIRRUS for the latest listings of ATM machines you can use.
In basic terms, 100 francs is worth $3.00. 1,000 francs is $30.00.
Some supermarkets take ATM cards or VISA; Sarma takes VISA, I'm not
sure about the others. Mastercard is known as Eurocard over there.
Keep in mind that the prices for everything--store goods, meals,
etc.--include all applicable taxes and tips. The price you see is what
you pay; if only it were that easy here. If you're happy with your
restaurant service you can leave a few francs as a tip--typically people
will leave some of the change from the nearest-denomination bill.
2) Driving. The autoroute speed limit is 120 km/hr. On smaller roads
keep an eye out for triangular signs on the right that have a red
border and a black X in the center. This means that vehicles entering
from the next goat path on the right have priority over through traffic.
Invariably it's some slow-moving tractor. Filling your gas tank will cost
you about 1000 Belgian francs.
3) Water. Europeans think that drinking tap water is a weird idea, and
you can become terribly dehydrated if you depend on water fountains.
Particularly in Belgium some restaurants will refuse to bring you a
carafe of plain water, and will insist on selling you tiny, overpriced
bottles of mineral water.
Whenever you're going anywhere, pick up a 2-liter bottle of
mineral water for the trip; throw it in the back seat of the car, or
carry it on the train. Water is available in every store. In fact, you'll
usually have a choice of varieties, and this can be very useful for
brewers, as each of them has the mineral content on the label. You can
buy water that has almost nothing in it (Spa) up to water that tastes
just like Burton-on-Trent (usually from Vichy). Check the carbonate
content on the label. You'll definitely taste the carbonates by 300, and
some waters go way into the thousands. This brings us to:
4) Bathrooms. In many restaurants and public facilities you'll encounter
the Dame Pipi, usually a humorless woman who cleans the bathrooms and
charges you for their use. It's helpful to have change in your pockets-
-usually 7 to 10 francs. You'll have a very unpleasant experience if
you try to use the bathroom without paying. Think of it as a user fee.
5) Food. Be prepared; eating in Belgium is expensive. Even a simple
pizza for one person will cost 300 francs (or about $9.00). Show a little
restraint, but also accept that you're on vacation and that's just how it
is.
All months with the letter "R" (SeptembeR, MaRch, etc.) in them
are mussel season (moules in French, mossel in Flemish). Mussels are
one of the Belgian national foods, and usually are excellent. They come
with French fries, and the portions are usually quite large. You'll have
a choice of preparations, many of which I'm not familiar with. I usually
go for whatever's cheap, as these are less likely to be drenched in
cream and have lighter wine-based sauces.
"French" fries are another national dish. The ones in restaurants
are your average fries; what you want are the ones from the trailer
stands. Go for the ones that come in paper cones, and avoid the ones
that come in plastic trays. Usually even the small portions are huge,
and cost about 50 francs. You will be offered a large variety of sauces
for the fries, including mayonnaise. My friends over there frequently
take tartar sauce or sauce cocktail (French dressing with whiskey in it).
>From long experience I can tell you not to get exotic, or you'll be sorry.
I'll go for mayonnaise if it's home made, and otherwise just go naked.
If you order the mayo, be prepared for a heart-clogging glob that's
worth at least 1000 calories.
Finally, there's waffles. The kind we think of as Belgian waffles
are known as Brussels waffles over there. Skip these. What you want
are the Liege waffles (gaufres in French), which are available only from
street stands. These are compact, round waffles made from a batter
that contains chunks of sugar. When cooked some of the chunks near
the surface carmelize the exterior. You can usually smell these from
several blocks away. Hot, they're just wonderful, and cost about 20-30
francs.
Finally, there's chocolate. In the supermarkets buy Cote D'Or
fondant (dark), as well as Callebaut Zero bars, Cote D'Or chocotoffs, and
Galler bars. If kept from heat most of these will travel well. The filled
chocolate bonbons are known as "pralines" in Belgium, and the most
common vendors are Leonidas and Daskalides. In Brussels, more chichi
brands include Toison d'Or, Neuhaus, and Wittamer. Almost all of them
are fantastic when fresh, but they fade in flavor quickly and don't
travel very well. If you really want to bring some back, buy them the
day before you leave (or better yet, that morning) and keep them as
cool as possible. Eat them as quickly as possible, too (no this isn't a
joke--you'll quickly find that some of the flavors start to fade a bit if
you wait).
6) Beer. I won't go into detail here, except to say that if you ask for a
"Scotch" (pronounced the way we do) you'll get a Belgian-style Scotch
ale. There are a number of very good ones. When you're ready to
stock up for the trip back, many supermarkets have very extensive
beer selections, including the appropriate glassware. The larger
supermarkets--usually ones on the outskirts of town--will have almost
all of the regional and national brews, and sometimes some of the more
local varieties as well. A small fee will be added to your purchase for
the bottle deposit. You can collect this when you bring the bottles
back on your next trip. ;-)
7) Language. If you speak French, make an attempt while in Wallonie.
While in Flanders, speak English first--just ask people if they speak
English. Nobody's going to shoot you, but you'll get a better reception
in Flanders if you try in English; you'll find people who speak French
but prefer English even if they're not as fluent. Some want to practice,
and some have other political reasons. Again, nobody's going to go
after you, but my advice is to stay out of the linguistic disputes if you
don't want to uncover hidden layers of ugliness.
If you're interested in historical information, there's a very good (long!)
entry in the Encyclopedia Brittanica, including a snazzy map showing all
of the tortured linguistic/political boundries.
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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