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Lambic Digest #0284
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Subject: Lambic Digest #284 (February 24, 1994)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 00:30:06 -0700
Lambic Digest #284 Thu 24 February 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Looking for a cask... (bickham)
candi and wyeast belgian ale (HEAD IDJIT)
Re: Looking for a cask (Dave Resch)
Brewing update (David Douglass)
Re: Oak Casks (Donovan Bodishbaugh)
Re: Casks etc
(Nick Zentena)
Lambic the Technoweenie Way (Jim Liddil)
What I did for President's Day (Michael Sharp)
My first p-Lambic (Ed Hitchcock)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:48:25 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for a cask...
In Lambic Digest #283, Mike asks
>
> Also, anyone have a line on 15 gallon casks? I'd like to buy 2-3 more.
> New American Oak is ok if there isn't any other choice. I've been
> quoted $160ish/each which seems _much_ too high.
A new member of our brewclub who also happens to be a microbiologist,
knows of a source for ash casks in 5, 10 or 15 gallons sizes. Does
anyone know if these would be suitable for lambics? This guy gave me
the impression that ash was pretty innocuous as far as adding flavors
the the beer, but as long as it is friendly to all of the yeasts and
bacteria we want to live inside, it should be fine.
He recently started working at one of the vet school labs at Cornell,
and once he is more etsablished there, he can probably obtain any and all
of the cultures found in a natural lambic.
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 07:24:11 -0700
From: berg%eccx.dnet at esu36.ateng.az.Honeywell.COM (HEAD IDJIT)
Subject: candi and wyeast belgian ale
Hey all-
First question: Does anyone know where you can get candi? If not, what's
a reasonable replacement?
Second question: Has Wyeast discontinued their belgian ale yeast? I noticed
it is no longer listed on the package (also missing is california ale yeast).
db
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 94 08:02:15 MST
From: resch at craycos.com (Dave Resch)
Subject: Re: Looking for a cask
Mike,
I have purchased two casks from a French company in Napa. I have bought their
50 litre French Oak casks, but I just recieved information that they are now
importing American Oak into France and are making American Oak casks also.
The French Oak casks are 1030 French Francs. With the current exchange rate,
that is about $175.00. The cask I just bought cost 185.60 delivered to
Colorado.
Here's the info:
Name: Seguin Moreau
Address: 2180 Jefferson Street
Napa, CA 94559
Phone: (707) 252-3408
One data point...
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 94 10:12:14 EST
From: douglass at physics.att.com (David Douglass)
Subject: Brewing update
Since there seems to be a consensus that more brewing talk is
necessary, I'll bring you up to date on my first (and only)
endeavor. Way back when in digest #53, I wrote
|date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 09:02:35 EST
|From: douglass at physics.att.com
|Subject: What have I gotten myself into?
|Greetings,
|After a recent trip to Belgium, I find myself in desperate need of
|lambic ale. At the homebrew store, I asked about the requisite
|bacteria, expecting them to have to order them for me, giving me
|time to decide what I needed/wanted for this potion. Much to my
|surprise, the two cultures were in stock. Naturally, I bought them
|and proceeded to make an ersatz lambic in short order. The recipe
|sort of came from a book on the shelf at the store (which I did not
|buy), and I would now appreciate some advice from someone (anyone!)
|with a little experience in this area. The recipe follows:
|6.6 lb Northwestern wheat/barley malt extract (50/50)
|0.5oz Cascade
|0.5oz Hallertauer
|1 package dried yeast
|2 bacteria cultures (names escape me at the moment)
|I started the bacteria in ~8oz wort 5 days before brewing. The
|hops were supposed to be 3 years! old, so I broke the pellets up
|and set them out for 5 days to oxidize, probably accomplishing
|little, as they still smelled wonderful when I brewed. Boiled
|~45min (extract + hops), cooled, pitched, etc. It has been
|fermenting for about 2 weeks now, and I racked to secondary last
|night after bottling my imitation Trappist (I had a good time in
|Belgium). Several questions have come up by this point.
Martin and Mike both answered all of my questions at the time, I'll
just give you the update now.
I moved across town in November, so my carboy had a nice trip in
the car. A week later a racked to tertiary for the heck of it. No
pellicle or brainy mass ever developed. I finally got bored
waiting and needed the carboy space, so I bottled in late December,
with no additional yeast.
At bottling time, this stuff was crystal clear and smelled worse
than a week old hippopotamus corpse. Feeling adventuresome, I
actually drank one after about two weeks in the bottle. It was
slightly carbonated, so that should be no problem in a month or
so. There was no offensive odor, either. As for the taste, well...
It didn't have any. A very mild, light beer with just a hint of
clovey taste. Not exactly what my memory tells me I drank in
Belgium. The only available lambic at the local store was a Kreik,
so I haven't been able to compare yet to an official example.
I have a feeling the Brett. and Pedio. cultures never got going,
for some reason. The recent discussion about the difficulty of
keeping them viable in homebrew stores makes me a little suspicious
that that may have been the problem. They did seem okay in the
starter, though.
Suggestions for next time are of course welcome. Also, if any of
the more learned among us is willing, I'd like to send a bottle to
a competent judge for tasting. A discussion of it's flaws might be
useful to a lot of us who are new to this style. Personally, I
have absolutely no idea what 'horsey' is supposed to mean, for
example. The stuff I drank in Belgium did not exactly remind me of
a barnyard.
So long from sunny NJ (13th snow/ice storm in progress as I write this)
David Douglass
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:45:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Donovan Bodishbaugh <dfb at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Re: Oak Casks
Some questions about Digest #283 postings:
> I would _STRONGLY_ recommend you spend some time calling various
> wineries and cooperages to find a used casks. If you have to start from
> new you'll need to run at least four or five batches of lambic through it
> before you get something that isn't liquid wood.
Why would anyone do this? Surely repeated boiling water or
acidified water treatments would extract the oak tannins as well as wort.
I don't think I could bring myself to grind the wheat and malt, go through
an elaborate decoction mash, and then wait for months, just to say "Yep,
tastes like liquid wood allright", and dump it. Not even for one batch,
let alone 4 or 5. I cannot believe this is the only way.
> Also, anyone have a line on 15 gallon casks? I'd like to buy 2-3 more.
> New American Oak is ok if there isn't any other choice. I've been
> quoted $160ish/each which seems _much_ too high.
Are there less expensive sources for these things? The cheapest
price I've seen bandied about is $135, and that was for a 10 gal. cask.
Could people post their experiences? Feel free to e-mail me directly if
you know a good source, but are reluctant to advertise it. I find it
amusing that in the HBD, people complain bitterly about glass carboy
prices of $15 to $20, while we casually talk of acquiring several $100
worth of fermentation vessels. I guess some homebrewers complain about
paying $1 for a good commercial beer too (sigh).
Thanks,
Rick Bodishbaugh
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 94 15:22:20 EST
From: zen at hophead.north.net (Nick Zentena)
Subject: Re: Casks etc
First a question. The batch I started last year has a pH about
the same has last year [both in the 3.5 range] but this years
tastes much more acidic. Does that make any sense?
On casks I think you can get new 15gallon casks in season
[Sept-Nov?] for something like $80cdn. But you can get 40imp
gallon distillers casks for <$40cdn. The places around here
don't do mailorder but that should give you an idea.
Nick
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I drink Beer I don't collect cute bottles!
zen at hophead.north.net
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 16:00:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Lambic the Technoweenie Way
Mike Sharp wrote:
% > I
% > recently finished the _Lambic_ book by Guinard, and wanted to see some
% > more people's results as far as fermentation, etc. goes. The archives
% > have alot of notes on fermentation, how do those beers taste now? (Or
% > is there any left? ;-) ).
% umm. the first batch I did in new oak tasted like liquid oak-tree.
% The extract batch I split into a framboise and gueuze for the AHA
% Milwaukee conference was *WONDERFUL* in the bottle but *SUCKED* in
% the kegs. The batch just racked is promissing, but I won't know about
% it for at least another 3-4 months. Jim Liddil bottled an excelent
% p-lambic recently that was very similar to St. Louis gueuze.
Flattery will get you everywhere :-) Rose de Gambrinus it ain't :-(
% > If he is, where'd he get the cask?
F.H. Steinbart has the best prices I have found on oak casks but shipping is
another matter.
********
In my previous post I forgot to mention the I used 6 ounces of whole hops from
the local natural foods market. The hops are in a small drawer and all the
lupulin glands have fallen to the bottom. I scoop them up and then get the
hops. There is alot of really orange powder that smells like krafts mac and
cheese. The hop flowers are also nice and yellow brown.
For yeast I used some Liefman's skimmed of a previous batch. This yeast seems
to be a true top fermenter with more staying power than the wyeast german ale
strain.
Now as far a pure culture lambic (PCL) making I have a few theories much of
which is only supported by literature and not by my own practical experience.
Being a scientist I see PCL as a microbiology experiment rather than brewing in
a more normal sense. For references I would refer you to Guinards book 'lambic'
and the dissertations from Leuven dealing with Lambic yeast and bacteria. You
can get these through interlibrary loan after I am done with them :-).
Lambics take 1-2 years to ferment in belgium with 2 years being the more
traditional time period. If one looks at the data none of the organisms in the
cask ever reach high levels (>10e5/ml) except the enteric bacteria in the first
weeks. I feel this is an important point from the standpoint of maintaining
growth of all the organism throughout the fermentation cycle.
The first organism to grow are eneteric bacteria (e. coli, hafnia etc) these
organisms grow best using glucose of which there is an abundance. The grow
quickly and produce acetic acid and other waste products. As these bacteria
have reached their peak the yeast of the strain Kloeckera begin to grow more
rapidly. These yeast grow almost exclusively on glucose also. Their growth
along with the bacteria causes an almost complete depeltion of glucose from the
beer. At the same time they help lower the pH and increase the alcohol content
of the beer, killing off the bacteria. The lysed bacteria release their
contents into the beer providing food for growth of other organisms late in the
fermentation cycle.
Another important bacteria growing in the first weeks is Klebsiella aerogenes.
This bacteria produces fair amounts of acid and also seems to produce a factor
or cause a change in the media which actually inhibits the growth of yeasts. I
do not know if the cause of this has yet been identified. Also the various
bacteria and kloeckera utilize a large amount of the amino acids present in the
wort prbably further inhibitng the growth of later organisms. These bacteria
provide a fodd depot for the later organisms growth as they undergo lysis.
The kloeckera do not grow for long (a few weeks) before species of
saccharomyces begin to proliferate. But because all the glucose has been
depleted the yeasts grow rather slowly and it takes 3-4 months for them to
attenuate the beer to "normal" levels. Besides glucose and amino acid
depletion there is also an unknown factor from the bacteria furhter inhibitng
yeast growth.
According to the research from Leuven pediococcus and lactobacillus bacteria
begin to grow more as the saccharomyces finish their fermentation activity.
These bacteria prouce lactic and some acetic acid but never reach very high
concentrations.
Next species of brettanomyces and oxidative yeasts such as candida and pichia
begin to grow to larger concentrations. They also produce fair amonuts of
lactic acid. The oxidative yeasts help form a "crust" on the top of the wort
protecting it from oxidation and contamination from acetobacter and other
oxidative bacteria.
I have talked to JX Guinard anumber of times and he said that when he was
brewing lambic he would follow the growth of the various organisms and
sometimes one of them would simply die off. Thus the lambic may end up being
"soft" and this goes along with lambic brewers experince where some caks are
very "hard" and some not though they all were filled at the same time. So even
if one puts all the 86 critters Boon has found in his lambic thye probably
don't all survive to an extent that has an impact on the actual flavor. The
same goes for wine must. At anyone time one may find every organism known to
man but they don't grow much and effect the flavor. The take home message is
that if you have the capability sample you fermenter every so often and see if
the critters you wnat to survive are surviving. Every organisms wants to take
over and is doing it's best to kill off the other ones. Survival of the
fittest :-)
I have a theory about p-lambic brewing. First after brewing one should allow
the wort to cool overnight in a pot uncovered and then the next day put it into
a fermenter of choice. This promotes infection with various oxygen dependent
enterobacteria. This organism produce lactic and acetic acid which will
contribute to the overall flavor later on. In the next day or 2 one should
then add Kloeckera yeasts at a low innoculum of ~100 cells/ml and then wait 1-2
weeks for them to use up most of the glucose along with the bacteria. This
also allows time for the bacteria to continue growth as the oxygen is used
slowly and the pH drops slowly.
At thsi point monitor the ferment for bugs and yeasdt growth and pitch ~100
cells/ml of any old saccharomyces and let it go for 1 month and the pitch with
pediococcus, lactobaciilus, brett, candida etc. Allow this to go for 1.5 years
monitoring the growth of the organisms if one dies prematurely re add.
At the later stages avoid any transfers or other activity which may allow
acetobacter to grow and over acidify the wort. Again this only a theory and I
welcome any comments form those of you out there. This is the plan of attack I
will use for my next batch. Granted it would be nice to have 5-6 50 gallons
caks to start all at once and use to blend but I think the neighbors might
begin to wonder :-)
Jim Liddil
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 94 16:11:29 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: What I did for President's Day
So what did I do? I brewed of course.
Flanders Brown Clone (Attempt) -----------
~8 gal deionized water (doesn't everyone have a DI system at home? 8-) )
6.6lbs light malt extract syrup (M+F)
6.5lbs light dried malt
3 lbs crystal malt
6grams gypsum (CaSO4) -> 37ppm total
6grams epson (MgSO4) -> 15ppm total
2/19---
3:50pm Bring to boil; remove crystal malt at 170F
boil for 30 min
4:20pm Add 4oz of BC kent pellets (~4% alpha)
boil for 45 min
5:05pm Add 1/2 tsp. Irish moss
boil for 15 min
5:20pm Remove from boil
Added ~3gal boiling water
Cooled overnight (I have no clue what happened to my chiller)
2/20---
6:00pm Racked to 3 containers ~3gal each
s.g. 14 degrees brix
9:20pm Pitched with 3 different mixed cultures
1) Liefmans culture (single strain) straight from the brewery
2) Rodenbach mixed culture from the brewery
3) Felix Oud Bruin from bottle culture
2/21---
Liefmans is really wierd looking in the primary. Picture a foam
volcano. This later corrected itself and spread across the
entire surface. This isn't anything even close to a compact
'head'. Make sure you have lots of head space in your fermeneter.
Rodenbach looks 'normal' - nothing wierd to my eye.
Felix forms a very thin, dense head ~1/2" thick and brownish instead
of the usual white->cream color.
Well, we'll see what happens.
Yet Another P-Lambic ----------------
lots-o deionized water
32lbs pale malt (domestic stuff, nothing fancy)
21lbs red wheat flakes
9grams gypsum (CaSO4)
9grams epsom (MgSO4)
1.25lbs old hops (various varieties)
2-21 -------
9:30-11:15 equipment setup, heating strike water, etc.
11:15AM mashed in at 130F (160F strike water)
12:00-12:40 Raised temp to 158F
2:00 Started sparging with 180F water
Collected ~35 gallons total in two containers
2:25 Started heating; added 2 cans M&F wheat to up gravity a bit
4:20 Started boil (yeah, takes a long time to heat this much!)
4:25 Added hops
5:25 Put on cover, removed from heat, cooled overnight in garage
2-22 -------
6:00PM 12.7 degrees brix
siphoned to 10 & 15 gallon casks and a 3 gallon carboy
Pitched with (hold onto your hats):
Kloeckera apiculata
Cantillon Pediococcus isolate
Cantillon Brettanomyces isolate
Pediococcus cerevisiae (ATCC 25248)
Brettanomyces sp. (NRRL Y-1411)
Brettanomyces sp. (NRRL Y-1412)
Brettanomyces sp. (NRRL Y-1441)
lactic acid generating bacilli #1 (untyped)
lactic acid generating bacilli #2 (untyped)
Saccharomyces globosus
Pilsner Urquel 'D'
Larkin (top fermenting ale yeast)
Pasteur Champagne
Lambic Girardin ala kilo (from keg of 6week old lambic)
Why? I went through a few thesis, came up with an idea of
what is in a lambic during the first few days & did my
best to approximate it. Sorry, I wasn't anal enough to
figure out cells/ml final concentration.
Oh, prior to doing this I transfered my previous p-lambic (almost 1 year old)
from casks into two (legally obtained thank-you-very-much) Sankey kegs
(~12 gallons each) with 25lbs of frozen raspberries split between them.
I didn't do anything but wash the sludge out of the casks before putting in
the next batch. I figure whats in the wood is what I want in my beer.
Warning: 25lbs of raspberries aren't cheap! ouch!
While racking onto the raspberries I made up 12 ~16oz bottles w/o fruit
to save for a non-fruit p-lambic. ...something like a gueuze but I don't
have anything old to mix with it.
see. some of us are still making this stuff. (or trying anyway)
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 21:50:05 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: My first p-Lambic
I know people want to hear results, but with Lambics it takes time... I
started my first p-Lambic this weekend. 3Kg Canadian 2-row, 1.5 Kg soft
white wheat. I boiled the wheat and 10% of the malt as Guinard suggested
(with a rest at 155F), then added it to the rest of the malt which was
mashed in at 122F. A rest at the low end and high end of the conversion
temps and mashout at 180F, and sparged with 200F water. The temperature n
the grainbed stayed at around 170-175 for the whole sparge. I boiled it
two hours with 2 ounces stale hallertauer hops (I had one of those
paper-wrapped bricks, crumpled it into a paper bag, and stored it on top of
a radiator pipe for a while...), whirlpooled and chilled. It was a
beautiful pale straw/gold colour. Fermenting away with chico yeast it has
the whitest head I have ever seen on any of my beers (including a wit...).
I will transfer to a 5 gallon carboy (I usually ferment five gallons in a
6.5 gallon carboy so I don't have to worry about blowoff) when the chico
dies down and pitch the Brett (lambicus) and Pedio, along with boiled
pieces of birch and maple for the Brett to set up house in.
If all goes well I'll be adding the raspberries in July :-)
____________
Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. |
Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________|
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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