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Lambic Digest #0294
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Wed Mar 9 14:50:55 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #294 (March 08, 1994)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 11:42:19 -0700
Lambic Digest #294 Tue 08 March 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Do not send to reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu!!!
Syrup question (VOLKER)
HWBTA results (Rick Garvin)
WYEAST Belgian ale (Aaron Birenboim)
WYEAST Belgian ale
Wits and flour? (Spencer.W.Thomas)
Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994) (Michael Sharp)
White Beers and Orange Peel (Teddy Winstead)
Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994) (Philip Cutone)
Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994) ("Jack D. Hill")
timing of beasts??? (RON)
Apologies ("Jack D. Hill")
Sequin Moreau in Napa has French Oak casks (Martin Wilde)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed Mar 9 11:34:05 MST 1994
From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Subject: Do not send to reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu!!!
As most readers know by now, bad things happen when someone
sends to <reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu>, the distribution
address, instead of the digestifier address. I think I've gotten
this fixed now. This issue and the next didn't make it out on
schedule and are being sent manually. Hopefully the next one will
automatically be distributed to everyone instead of just to me.
-Steve
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Date: Mon, 07 Mar 1994 09:01:58 EDT
From: VOLKER <radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu>
Subject: Syrup question
Hi folks
A friend who has made several fine batches of pLambic but who has
no net access asked me to gather some net.wisdom for him.
He is looking for a source for raspberry syrup - he has had great success
with krieks, but wants to move into framboises. Every place he has checked
here in Baltimore has stuff that is fortified with apple juice only.
Any ideas or addresses out there?
All is appreciated
Volker
radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:00:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Garvin <rgarvin at access.digex.net>
Subject: HWBTA results
The HWBTA National went this past weakend as Phil noted. Phil Seitz,
Scott Bickham, David Ruggerio and Debra Nathanson were the judges. I was
VERY pleased with the quality of judging that went on. I took to heart
the comments that folks made about the quality of the AHA judging and I
believe that the judging was on a higher plane.
I would like to echo Phil's comments. The Lambic was an outstanding
effort. It had more acetic than lactic character and was
underattenuated. Another addition of sachromyces and some lactobacillus
would make this a BOS beer. Unfortunately, this beer did not get a
ribbon.
The third place Wit by Scott Bickham had a bit of the ham hock note.
This was a wonderful beer.
The second place Wit by Mark Groshek had too much coriander. Again, a
woinderful beer.
The first place Dubbel by Andy Anderson tasted just like a beer made
with La Chouffe yeast always does. Tasty, but too much fusel. At BOS the
fusel was the downfall of this beer.
Excellent effort.
The official results:
2. Belgian Style
1) #148 Andy Anderson, Alexandria VA, Dubbel
2) #323 Mark Groshek, Denver CO, Wit
3) #59 Scott Bickham, Ithaca NY, Wit
Cheers, Rick
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 09:30:32 MST
From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: WYEAST Belgian ale
To: lambic
Subject: WYEAST Belgian ale
on Mon, Mar 7 digest, Phillip R. Seitz menwioned many over-banana,
solventy beers from WYEAST belgian ale. I have heard similar stories
in the past.... hence the Abbey I bottled this weekend was from
chimay cultures. (Its pretty good... but quite "rummy" from 2#
sugar... but I kind of like it.) However, last month
at our homebrew cluib meeting I had a rather excellent doubble-like
beer from WYEAST Belgian. Banana... perhaps some, but mostly it was
"tuti-fruity"... a characteristic often described as bubble-gum.
It was also high in clove-phenolics, which I also like. I was
tasing it blind, and at first I wasa thinking dunkel-weizen
(due to the clove), but with the excessive fruitiness it seemed
off style.... but when suggested that I treated it as a double...
i gave it excellent marks. Chuck Keiper (formerly of GABF fame...
but thats another story) agreed with me that it was the best beer of
the night.
Are there STILL problems with this yeast.... or was it just that
WYEAST had to make a few mistakes before getting the handling
of this yeast right?
Is it the yeast the same as ever... and just hard to control?
What might the brewer of the beer I had have done right, that others
have done wrong? Temp??? perhaps. I think this guy, brewing in
Colorado winter, was fenmenting somwhere in the 60's.
Suggestion... I have heard that lower temps REDUCE phenols
(like clove) and most likely higher alchahols (solvent). Feel
free to disagree, I'm no expert. Low wort aeration increases
esters. So... If you like esters (fruit, bubble-gum, banana),
pitch a good volume, but under-aerate your wort. Perhaps one should
ferment this yeast in the low 60's to control solvent.
Anyone out here have experience with this yeast?
Phillip also suggested that trippels be low on fruity esters.
I do not know what the style guidelines say, but my taste does not agree
here. The commercial tripples I liked best did show fruitiness.
I do agree on strong ales. (I am familiar with scaldis, deuvel,
and some abbeys&trappists) These tend to have such high amounts
of yeast-derived character due to high gravityu,
that it might be well advised to do everything you can to reduce
yeast products. (lo temp, high aeration) But SOME belgian
spicyness is nice... I'm not sure what yeast to go with.
The bottling yeast form Deuvel is really quite nice IMOHO, even
if it will not produce a deuvel clone by itself.
aaron
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 11:37:12 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Wits and flour?
Does anyone have an opinion on using flour (whole-wheat, of course) in
Wit beer? To me, the advantages are:
+ Can get soft, medium, or hard wheat easily.
+ Don't have to mill it.
+ Extraction rate should be high
Potential disadvantages include:
- More chance of stuck sparge?
- Further removed from "the real thing" :=)
I can get fresh, organic, locally ground flour at my food coop, in
"pastry" (soft wheat), "all-purpose" (blend of soft & hard??), and
"bread" (hard wheat) varieties. I can also get wheat berries in
"soft" and "hard", bulgur from an unknown variety (pre-crushed and
gelatinized (?)), and semolina couscous (very high protein, also
pre-cooked).
=S
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 08:50:44 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994)
Phil writes:
> Finally, I might as well spill the beans. My brew club, BURP, is seriously
> considering holding an AHA-sponsored Belgian-styles-only contest in November.
> Since it was my idea I'll probably be running it. In any case, details will be
> forthcoming, but in the meantime you may want to do some planning and
> brewing--ESPECIALLY you lambic-tarians. Assuming we go forward with this I
> will make every effort to see that our judges are up to snuff and know their
> Belgian beers. With luck this will stimulate many of you to new levels of
> experimentation and to the discovery of new methods for the fabrication of
> quality Belgian-style beer.
Just a thought. Seriously consider relaxing the 12oz brown bottle requirement.
The addition of a green/brown punted split with a cork would really help
some of us (ok, maybe I'm the only purist?).
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:41:02 -0600 (CST)
From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead)
Subject: White Beers and Orange Peel
> A) Many white beers have an orangey flavor, but it's now apparent that
> this comes from fresh coriander seed rather than from orange
> peel. Boiling dried standard-type orange imparts a ham-like
> aroma that will lose you points and contribute little to the
> finished beer. Better to find some fresh coriander for your brew,
> and to use bitter orange peels, which contribute an herbal
> bitterness. These are now available from a number of homebrew
> dealers.
I'm not out to start a flamewar here, god knows that's the last thing that
we need, but I must take issue with this statement. I've used "standard-type
orange" peels in two batches of white beer with tremendous success. Their
contribution to a brew is not identical to Curacao orange peels used by
many commercial brewers of Whites, but it is certainly similar, and
appropriate to the style (IMHO).
I have to agree with the statement that boiling the peels produces a weird
flavor that is well-described as "ham-like", but what I do is steep the
peels during the last ten to fifteen minutes under low heat at the finish
of the boil. This seems to do the job just fine.
By the way, could anyone give me a phone # for someplace the stocks dried,
bitter orange peels? My local store can't get them...
- --
Teddy Winstead
winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu
winstead at cs.tulane.edu
Computer Science Undergraduate
Fanatical Homebrewer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 15:19:17 -0500
From: pec at tmc.astm.cmri.cmu.edu (Philip Cutone)
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994)
Since there has been talk of chimey, i thought i'd ask.
Chimey adds a bit of yeast to the bottle before final bottling. they
say so on the bottle. Am i to assume that there is a good chance of
there being active cultures in the bottle. i thought most drinks need
to be free from little beasties before allowable import. Does FDA
consider yeast an allowable food product?
Anyone know the charactoristics of the yeast? Top/bottom (presume
bottom) and if its good for anything other than beer. i'd like to
make some mead/kvass/wine but have not the means of getting to a
homebrew supply store.. I guess i could mail order... but i think
chimey tastes better than plane yeast/agar cultures... :)
So anyone have any 800 numbers to call?
i guess i could always try the write the brewers and ask for yeast,
then scrape it off the letter they send to say that its a trade
secret and they wont give me any....
:)
finally, where is the FAQ ftpable so i don't have to bother everyone
with already covered material...
philip
bibunt centum bibunt mille!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 14:09:02 EST
From: "Jack D. Hill" <jdhill at BBN.COM>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994)
I think people should take Phil's radical advice concerning Wyeast
Belgian with a grain of salt. I brewed two back to back batches of Belgian ales
that both had the strong banana esters Phil complained about. The first was
fermented with a Chimay culture and the second with Belgian Wyeast. I suggest
that the reason Phil found the samples he tasted were so bad was that they were
young. After waiting one year, my beers lost all of the nasty esters and left a
complex, spicy character that is typical of Belgian ales.
Which brings me to another point... I had assumed that the date printed
on the cork of Chimay bottles is the date of bottling. Does anyone have any
information on how long the beer is allowed to ferment before bottling? I've
had bottles of Chimay that were dated as being as young as 2 months. In fact, I
was advised that these young bottles are the ones to try to get cultures from.
I'm experimenting and working on the theory that most Belgian ales are
fermented with more than one yeast. My last batch was a fairly successful pale
ale that started with the Kent Belgian yeast in the primary and a dry
fermenting yeast in the secondary. Before I transferred from the primary the
yeast seemed finished and showed no activity. The secondary yeast went nuts and
beer was coming out of the airlock. The beer still had the banana esters but it
matured much more quickly than the batches made with only Belgian yeast.
In my next batch, I plan to reverse the order of fermenting yeast.
Perhaps a Bavarian Wheat in the primary followed by the Belgian. I'll keep you
posted.
Jack Hill
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 1994 15:25 EST
From: RON.admin at admin.creol.ucf.edu (RON)
Subject: timing of beasts???
Couple of questions to the net from a first time p-Lambic brewer....
- Guinard suggests pitching P. Cerevisiae at one time and the Brett. afterwards.
In the Lambic FAQ Al suggests doing a natural pitching all at one time.
Whats up with that????
- Simulating casking with some oak chips - how much and how to prepare????
- Having trouble finding somewhere in the southeast (US) that has or can
special order the P. Cerevisiae culture from GWKent. Nobody stocks it regularly.
I would like to pitch in the near future and was wondering about sending
them through the mail (heat). Its already in the mid 80's in the afternoon
here in Central Florida - coldest winter in a long time.
Thanks to all
- --------------------
Ron Raike - Facilities / Computers / Networks
CREOL - Center for Research and Education in Optics \ | /
and Lasers at the University of Central Florida \\|//
- -------------------------------------------------------------*-------
email ron at laser.creol.ucf.edu //|\\
phone 407.658.6803 / | \
fax 407.658.6880
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 18:06:15 EST
From: "Jack D. Hill" <jdhill at BBN.COM>
Subject: Apologies
...to everyone for my ineptitude. My mail handler for some reason cc'd
everyone in the message header and my message accidentaly got sent to
reallambic as well as lambic. Thank you so much for your kind understanding.
Jack
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 16:41:16 PST
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Sequin Moreau in Napa has French Oak casks
Text item: Text_1
In Lambic Digest 284, Dave Resch posts:
> Mike,
>
> I have purchased two casks from a French company in Napa. I have
bought
> -their
> 50 litre French Oak casks, but I just recieved information that they
are now
> importing American Oak into France and are making American Oak casks
also.
>
> The French Oak casks are 1030 French Francs. With the current
exchange rate,
> that is about $175.00. The cask I just bought cost 185.60 delivered
to
> Colorado.
>
> Here's the info:
>
> Name: Seguin Moreau
> Address: 2180 Jefferson Street
> Napa, CA 94559
> Phone: (707) 252-3408
I just called the folks and they also have 27L liter ~7 3/4 gallon
French Oak casks for about $145 (based on current exchange rate). It
sounds like the bigger the cheaper.
By the way Dave, what did you have to do to prepare the casks for usage?
With the French Oak, did you notice any oakiness?
Is there a difference in Slovanian and French Oak? Steinbarts
here in Portland (503-232-8793) has 50L Slovanian Oak casks for $185.
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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