Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Lambic Digest #0289
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Tue Mar 1 03:19:38 1994
Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA27705
(5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Tue, 1 Mar 94 03:19:32 -0500
Received: from localhost (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5a (LANCE 1.01)) id AAA04360 for reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 00:30:07 -0700
Message-Id: <199403010730.AAA04360 at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Reply-To: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (postings only - do not send subscription requests here)
Errors-To: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
From: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (subscriber distribution list)
Subject: Lambic Digest #289 (March 01, 1994)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 00:30:07 -0700
Lambic Digest #289 Tue 01 March 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Candi Sugar ("Norman Dickenson")
Goin' to Belgium! :-) (shane)
Enterics and the Force (Jim Liddil)
Various subjects (Michael Sharp)
Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to:
lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to:
netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu
A FAQ is also available by netlib; say 'send faq from lambic' as the
subject or body of your message.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 28 Feb 1994 09:46:10 -0500
From: "Norman Dickenson" <norman.dickenson at Sonoma.EDU>
Subject: Candi Sugar
Subject: Time:9:16 AM
OFFICE MEMO Candi Sugar Date:2/28/94
For the person seeking a source of dark candi sugar, F.W. Steinbart (sp ?)
of Portland is selling this now for $2.95 lb. + shipping. It is rated at
275 lovibond and is in a granulated form. It doesn't impart that much
taste. I brewed a dubbel with it yesterday (in combination with a low
flavor black malt) and got a rousing fermentation going this morning
from the Westmalle yeast I used. This brew was actually the second
runnings from a trippel/double combo (1.099 & 1.077 disrespectively).
I boiled cane sugar with citric acid to make invert sugar for the trippel
portion. It darkened considerably to about15 lovibond and achieved a
quite pronounced caramalized flavor. I'm eager to see what the brew
trolls will be giving me. BTW, there is a very good discussion of brewing
sugars in the Belgian Ale Book of the Classic Beer Styles.
norman.dickenson at sonoma.edu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: shane <DEICHMAN at perch.nosc.mil>
Subject: Goin' to Belgium! :-)
Fellow Brew Aficionadoes and Lambic Gurus:
My S.O. and I are going to Europe in mid-March, during which
time we'll be spending five nights in the Benelux region. I'd
really appreciate if you could share some insight into good
places to partake of the lambic essence while in Brussels,
Brugge and Antwerp. (maybe i'll smear some wort on a postcard
and mail it to you from there! ;-) Thanx in advance!
vr/ shane
at ------------------------------------------------------------------ at
|NCCOSC RDT&E Div., Code 4122 +1-619-553-2767/FAX -6288/DSN 553- |
|San Diego, CA 92152-5001 USA INTERNET: deichman at perch.nosc.mil |
at ------------------------------------------------------------------ at
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 11:18:26 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Enterics and the Force
Ed replied to me:
%
% Jim Liddil replied to my cautionary note:
%
% >If one is going to brew lambic one has to forget all about the processes one
% >goes thorugh making other varieties of beer and trust the force :-)
%
% No, one has to keep all the other processes in mind, and uderstand
% why they do or why they don't apply...
I guess I was not being direct enough about not the humor here :-) But again
lambic is not the normal ale or lager. And many belgian lambic brewers don't
care about the processes and how thye apply. They just cool the owrt overnight
in open coll ships and pump it into wood casks
%
% > ...Check out
% >the idssertations and articles in Brewers Digest that have come out of Leuven.
% >In the first few weeks a lambic does indeed contain lots of Hafnia, E. coli.
% >klebsiella and other enteric bacteria.
%
% Indeed. In fact, some of these enterics come from bat guano, which
% someone mentioned here not long ago. But if you want to brew a pLambic
% yourself, I would strongly reccommend staying away from E. coli, it can be
% serious trouble.
My point was not to suggest adding enterics directly but to let them come from
the air by cooling the wort overnight. What beginner has not stuck his arm
into the wort or used old bacteria laden yeast. Granted these bacteria survive
in normal beer but not for long in lambic. If cooling overnight is so
dangerous how come more belgians aren't dead or sick. After having had a
number of Cantillons lately I don't believe Van Roy practices any sanitation
:-)
%
% > ...All these organisms are killed off in
% >lambic due to the alcohol, low pH and total depeletion of glucose and most
% >other fermentable matter.
%
% Ahh, but you want them out BEFORE this. The enterics should be
% done in by the Kloeckera and Saccharomyces. I was pointing out that in the
% homebrew type situation, innoculating with enterics first (by accident) and
% then with yeast, the enterics have ALWAYS come out ahead in my brewery.
In your brewery. Have you done ap-lambic and check it for enteric bacteria
after it has been in femrnetaiton and the bottle for two years?
% You don't need pathogenic bacteria to be alive to a) ruin your
% beer, b) poison you. Think botulism...
We are not talking about regular beer. This is p-lambic it is naturally
infected and some people would already say it is ruined :-). I am not an
expert but has boutlism ever been found in beer. Again how had lambic been
brewed for so long and it is not killing people? I still fail to see how
cooling the wort naturally can cause a problem or is the air inherently
different in Payottenland vs Tucson, AZ. Well, it is but from an infection
pathogenic standpoint I would venture to guess it is not. Then again maybe
some valley fever cocci might get in my beer. But it would not survive since I
already asked.
% I fully recognize the contribution of enterics in true Lambics. I
% am merely of the opinion that to reproduce the effect of tehse organisms in
% the home brewery requires an awful lot more than trust in some mythical
% magical force.
%
But the belgain lambic brewers seem to have the attitude that one cools the
wort and puts it into casks and let htings happen. Works for them. So I still
feel that natural inncoluation is worth trying and something not to worry
about. :-)
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 94 16:40:42 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Various subjects
"Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel_F_McConnell at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu> writes:
> Subject: airborn innoculation in Bru
...
> Therefore, I completely
> agree (well, almost) with the most recent Mike Sharp approach of *low
> level* innoculations of lots of cultures into a previously infected barrel.
> Not sure about that PU 'D' strain though. Mike, care to elaborate?
Some of my papers indicate lager yeasts being present in lambic ferementations.
resch at craycos.com (Dave Resch) writes:
> Subject: Casks and pLambics
>
> Mike asks what I am doing with my casks...
>
> Well, I just received the second one and have not yet done anything with it.
> I expect that I will give it the same treatment as the first one I got:
>
> - lots of initial rinsing to get rid of loose material in the keg and to get
> it to start to swell to seal the cracks between the staves.
> - repeated hot water soaks to remove easily extracted tannin, etc.
> - soak with a very mild sulfite solution for a few weeks to allow slower
> leaching of the tannins, but protecting from too many unknown wild
> critters taking up residence.
>
> I did this with the first cask and my current batch of pLambic has been in
> that cask for over 8 months and I don't think it tastes very much at all of
> Oak. I don't know if my treatment has anything to do with it or if it is
> just because it is French Oak and doesn't impart as much flavor as the American.
ok, I'd always heard that French (and European oak in general) imparted a lot
less 'stuff' to the beer/wine than american oak. I'll take this as a
data point in favor of this theory. I just looked at some 20gal Slovakian
oak casks last weekend so maybe I'll get a chance to generate a few data
points myself.
tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman) writes:
> Subject: Techno-whining the lambic way
> But I am wondering. Rather than using a yeast like Chico, wouldn't it make
> more sense to use a blend of interesting S. cerevisiae strains to try to
> establish some complexity up front? I imagine that much of the S.
> cerevisiae produced component will be lost during the course of the long
> ferment, with Brett and other organisms scavanging many of the simpler
> organic molecules (in the presence of O2, Brett converts ethanol to acetic
> acid, for example). So, is it really a problem if you have diacetyl
> producing yeast? Probably not - pedio will also produce diacetyl, which
> eventually drops out. Perhaps, interesting S. cerevisiae could augment
> complexity.
The only data point I have on this is a batch I fermented with Chimay
yeast. I wanted to see if any of the 'Chimay' character carried through.
During the primay and part of the secondary the 'Chimay character' was
obvious in the nose and palate, but this was later _completely_ stripped
off.
Nick (zen at hophead.north.net) writes:
> Now for a question. He had available Glycerine [Foodgrade] for a
> very good price $2 4oz. I'm hoping I can use this to freeze
> normal ale yeasts using the method mentioned in Zymurgy Special
> issue awhile back. I'm also assuming I can't use this for Brett&
> Pedio? Yes no?
Of course you can use it for Pediococcus and Brettanomyces. I'd use it
in a 50/50 v/v solution with a good dense slurry. Try to find a -70 or
-80C freezer if you can. Home freezers actually cycle above OC (32F)
occasionally (to defrost) and this _may_ cause storage problems.
--Mike
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
-------
