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Lambic Digest #0285
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Subject: Lambic Digest #285 (February 25, 1994)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 00:30:09 -0700
Lambic Digest #285 Fri 25 February 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
more on casks ("Daniel F McConnell")
more on casks
wild fermenting at home (Ed Hitchcock)
Candy sugar and casks ("Phillip Seitz")
Re: Candi Sugar and Wyeast (Jeff Frane)
Growth of lambic organisms (Jim Liddil)
Trip to Belgium and using wheat flakes (Martin Wilde)
Large batches (Michael Sharp)
late breaking news (Michael Sharp)
Brewin' ("Larry Lynch-Freshner")
First batch under way (Mark Stickler)
Re: Candi (CCASTELL)
Various... (Michael Sharp)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 1994 06:10:18 -0500
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel_F_McConnell at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu>
Subject: more on casks
Subject: more on casks
Rich quoting Mike:
>> .....you'll need to run at least four or five batches of lambic through it
>> before you get something that isn't liquid wood.
>
> Why would anyone do this? Surely repeated boiling water or
>acidified water treatments would extract the oak tannins as well as wort.
>I don't think I could bring myself to grind the wheat and malt, go through
>an elaborate decoction mash, and then wait for months, just to say "Yep,
>tastes like liquid wood allright", and dump it. Not even for one batch,
>let alone 4 or 5. I cannot believe this is the only way.
My approach was different, but no faster. My casks have all previously held
wine. A new American cask took soda ash, a red wine, a red pyment made with
the same grapes and then a white wine (which of course now became pink) for
a total of > 1 year. The first lambik through this cask has been there almost
a year and will be racked out soon. It tastes like oak. Simple boiling water
or
even soda ash willl not extract all of the oak flavor. It takes time, alcohol
and
more time. Even though it tastes of oak, I will not dump it, I can always hide
behind some fruit. Besides, I sort of like that oak flavor.
The only casks that have not extracted oak flavors were some that I purchased
used from a winemaker (a somewhat risky proposition). These *old* casks held
untold numbers of gallons of wine for untold years. The beer in these have
extracted no oak flavors, at least in the last 3 months or so. The only
trouble
with this approach is that most professional vintners use 55 gal casks, a
somewhat intimidating brew length.
DanMcC
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 10:27:06 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: wild fermenting at home
In the digest yesterday Jim describes his intended method for his next
p-Lambic, including leaving his wort open to the air overnight to collect
some Hafnia and other enterics (You DON'T want E. coli, by the way...), and
that he expects these to get bumped by the Kloeckera and Saccharomyces. I
got a Hafnia infection in a Pilsner that took four days to get going
(misshandled Wyeast pack). The bacterial infection didn't get going until
well AFTER the yeast had done it's job. Don't expect the Kloeckera and
Saccharomyces to usurp the coloforms. Use caution.
____________
Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. |
Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________|
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 10:06:18 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Candy sugar and casks
One reader asks:
>First question: Does anyone know where you can get candi? If not, what's
>a reasonable replacement?
Well, the Sarma Star in Jambes, just out side of Namur, Belgium is a
good source, and takes VISA. :-)
Seriously, Jeff Frane recently posted the address of a domestic source,
and perhaps can supply it again. On the other hand, having gone
through probably 15 lbs of the stuff I can say that I don't see much
difference between candi and corn sugar. Even the brown stuff doesn't
have the coloring power it's claimed to, so if you use corn sugar
you're not going to suffer at all.
On casks, I recall that the Vandervelden lambic brewery in Beersel
swears by chestnut (and swears AT oak). Offhand I can't recall having
any lambic-based beers that are oaky, and certainly none with the oak
character of, say, Rodenbach. This isn't to say don't do it, but just
that other options should work fine as long as your bugs are
comfortable living in the wood, and the wood doesn't supply any
objectionable flavors.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:26:57 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Candi Sugar and Wyeast
> From: berg%eccx.dnet at esu36.ateng.az.Honeywell.COM (HEAD IDJIT)
> Subject: candi and wyeast belgian ale
>
> Hey all-
>
> First question: Does anyone know where you can get candi? If not, what's
> a reasonable replacement?
>
F H Steinbart (check your Zymurgy for address) has dark candi sugar --
granular rather than chunks. They do mail order.
> Second question: Has Wyeast discontinued their belgian ale yeast? I noticed
> it is no longer listed on the package (also missing is california ale yeast).
>
I've recently finished camera-ready art for the new, improved Wyeast
label, which will include all current yeast strains. The Belgian ale
yeast is definitely included, although it's been moved to the "advanced"
category.
Personally, however, I would recommend the Belgian "white beer" yeast
(3994) by far.
- --Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 9:31:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Growth of lambic organisms
Douglass Wrote:
%
% Date: Wed, 23 Feb 94 10:12:14 EST
% From: douglass at physics.att.com (David Douglass)
% Subject: Brewing update
% |6.6 lb Northwestern wheat/barley malt extract (50/50)
% |0.5oz Cascade
% |0.5oz Hallertauer
% |1 package dried yeast
% |2 bacteria cultures (names escape me at the moment)
I assume you mean one bacteria and one yeast (pediococcus and brettanomyces)
%
% I have a feeling the Brett. and Pedio. cultures never got going,
% for some reason. The recent discussion about the difficulty of
% keeping them viable in homebrew stores makes me a little suspicious
% that that may have been the problem. They did seem okay in the
% starter, though.
For arguements sake let us say they were viable, but this may not be valid.
%
% Suggestions for next time are of course welcome. Also, if any of
% the more learned among us is willing, I'd like to send a bottle to
% a competent judge for tasting. A discussion of it's flaws might be
% useful to a lot of us who are new to this style. Personally, I
% have absolutely no idea what 'horsey' is supposed to mean, for
% example. The stuff I drank in Belgium did not exactly remind me of
% a barnyard.
First off try to find a person with a scope and taste your starters to make
sure the critters are growing. The starter should be sour and lambic-like.
You can send beer to me :-) I have recnetly had alot of experience with Boon
and Cantillon products :-)
The cultures may have died in the wort. It happens to belgian brewers. I
perosnally favor using the all grain approach with raw wheat and lots of real
hot sparge water to get as much unconverted starch and other nutrients into the
wort. These varius microorganisms are hard enough to grow in a lab. Provided
you have viable bugs the next important thing is time. I am now convinced that
1 year is the minimum time and two years is better for these organism to grow
and excrete their byproudcts inot the wort. If the pedio and brett don't adapt
to the environment they will die. Keep trying.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 09:12:32 PST
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Trip to Belgium and using wheat flakes
Text item: Text_1
At the end of June I will be vacationing in Belgium. I had an idea.
Why not take a petri dish (or better yet - some wort in a dishpan) and
set it outside Brussels somewhere and let the critters attack it. Bring
it back and let Michael Sharp have fun with it??? Sounds like I need
another beer...
On another note, I noticed Michael used red wheat flakes instead of
using red wheat and doing a decotion. Is this an allowable substitute
or is there a real difference? With my decotion disaster a few weaks
ago I don't know if I am ready to stick my finger back in the fire
again.
thanks
martin
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 09:16:30 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Large batches
Teddy Winstead writes:
> Thanks alot for your advice (Both past and recent). The early issues
> of The Lambic Digest have made some of the most interesting reading
> I've encountered lately on brewing.
One note of caution: Don't take the early digests as gospel. I know of
a few statements in there I'd like to retract (yeah, even _I_ was clueless
at one time 8-) ). I'll leave it to you to figure out what I'm refering
to. I'm sure others have said stupid things too...
> I'm interested in making large batches, and I read that you made
> 20-30 gallon ones. What kind of setup do you use?
I use a system which is a bizar combination of RIMS and decoction.
My mash tun is one half of a stainless 55gallon drum that has been
fitted with a false bottom. To heat I transfer from this to a 10gallon
stainless pot on a Superior burner (via gravity) and then back to the
mash. Depending on what I'm doing I can either do something like a
decoction (transfer, bring it to a boil and transfer back) or something
more like a RIMS (continuously recirculate). My boiler is a _large_
stainless pot of slightly more than 25gal capacity. For large batches
I've been known to do split boils.
> What was your cash outlay for all of it? (If you don't mind my asking).
umm...
The stainless barrel was brought to me by Dan Hall (Hi!) who wanted a
big mash tun made out of half. He offered the other half to cover my
labor. We puchased a full sheet of 1/8" perforated stainless to make
the false bottoms ($150ish I think), and I purchased a few feet of
1/8" think 1" wide 304 stainless angle at ~$50 per tun. A lot of cutting
welding and shaping later (read: lots-o-labor with fancy toys) out popped
two no-so-beautiful-but-functional mash tuns.
The Superior Burner was ~$80ish. I'm about to go get another burner of
100K+ BTU capacity for the boiler and save the Superior for my mash tun
heating.
The recirculating pump I have is a Procom pump (Fox is one supplier) bolted
to a 1/3HP motor. This setup (with various mounting plates, etc) was in
the $150 range when all was said and done.
The boiler was free!! (imagine that) I'd expect to pay in the high $100s,
possibly even near $1K to buy one like this. Its _very_ heavy industrial
construction and made from 316 stainless.
To sum up: it wasn't cheap. We're professionals. Don't try this at home. 8-)
Sheri (my SO) has a similar setup, but scaled for 10gallon batches max.
The big system only gets run once or twice a year when I fill my casks or
need a lot of wort for something like evaluating yeast strains.
What made me decide to construct such a thing?? How about 20+ hours of
working with a BrewHeat (Hi Kinney! What ever happened to out t-shirt trade?)
to yield enough to fill one of my casks. I did that _once_ and told myself
I'd never do it again. I haven't.
> Where'd you get the Rodenbach (That word makes my mouth water) and Leifman's
> cultures?
They where brought back from the respective breweries for me.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 09:18:59 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: late breaking news
FWIW, both of my casks of lambic started visibly 'working' sometime last
night/this morning. The 3gallon carboy is lagging behind.
I believe the carboy is lagging behind because of all the critters in
the oak of my casks.
I imagine I'll need to hose down the floor of the garage when I get home.
(thats where the casks are)
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 1994 10:39:11 -0800
From: "Larry Lynch-Freshner" <Larry_Lynch-Freshner at taligent.com>
Subject: Brewin'
Brewin'
Well, I'll jump in with everyone else...
I started my first lambic style beer a little over 6 mo. ago, by brewing two
seperate 5 gal batches, with slightly differing recipes a couple of weeks
apart. Both went through a normal primary in plastic, were transferred to
glass, and were inoculated with Pedio. (GW Kent) and Brett (GW Kent).
After 2-3 monthes in glass, I acquired a very old, used 10 gal cask. After
very thourough cleaning, leak sealing, etc., I transferred both batches to it.
I have since added more pedio (Al K's), and brett (Wyeast) and will be adding
Boon Gueuze bottle dregs soon :-). The cask is in my den, and upon entering,
the nose is assualted by a strong, complex, acidic smell. No pellicle has
formed. In the next month or so, I may start another batch. I will be
blending a portion of the older batch with 10-20 lbs of black raspberries (can
you say 'Framboise Noir'?) and letting that age seperatly.
I plan eventually blending some of the newer batch with the older and
bottling. Does anyone know if that is sufficient, or is priming also needed?
As to casks - I make wine also, and I have found that around the fall, 50-60
gal, used casks can be easyly had for $50-$100. These have _not_ been
reconditioned. I think Cantillon makes a lambic in used wine casks
(Brusella?) Smaller casks are very difficult to get used, because they are
only used by home wine makers. I'm also in California, and these all come
from the wineries around here.
Larry
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 13:52:17 EST
From: Mark Stickler <mstickle at lvh.com>
Subject: First batch under way
Well my first batch of pLambiek is under way and I have some (mostly
procedural) information to report and some questions.
So far I have made two five gallon batches (the limit of my equipment)
and both are fermenting away with Wyeast's American Ale yeast in HDPE
vessels. I plan on making two more five gallon batches over the next two
weeks. My plan is to rack the first two batches off their yeast sediment
into glass carboys and pitch each with a Brett (brux.) Culture I started.
I will immediately dump the cooled wort from the next two batches into
the HPDE fermenters so as to reuse the yeast. Is this okay?
My grain bill for each included 6.5lbs of American 2-Row and 3.5lbs of
rolled hard, red winter wheat (no soft summer available) that I got
from a health food store (thanks to those who suggested this source).
Do you think red winter wheat is going to have a big affect? I used
a step infusion mash (130 for 15min, 140 for 15 min, and 150 for 45min).
My hops were Mt. Hood whole hops that were baked for 1 hour at 300 degrees
and left out for a week or so. Each batch got 2 ozs. in hop bags. AA=3%.
I have received a Pedio culture and another Brett culture (bruxellenis)
which I plan on adding within the next week or so to both the 1st two
and 2nd two batches at approximately the same time. I may be getting a
Brett lambicus culture soon. Is it okay to add this a month or so after
fermentation begins? Is it a good idea to use both types of Brett? Does a
Brett or Pedio starter have any type of kreusen?
I think I'm going to skip the oak chips unless someone recommends other-
wise. I may start looking for an oak barrel for next year's batches.
Should American Oak be avoided? There are some wineries around here. Is
that a good source for used barrels (is that a dumb question)?
What should I be watching for as the batches ferment at 65 degrees in the
carboys? Pellicle (sp)? Ropiness (is that what it sounds like)?
**********
Other questions:
Does anyone have recipes for the following: Flanders Sour Brown Ale,
Saison, Berliner Weisse? I have all of the classic beer style books
from the AHA but would like other recipes as well.
Are there any homebrew supply shops which stocks Beglian Dark Candy
Sugar?
That's all for now, I'll keep you posted on any significant progress.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions. To respond to me via private
e-mail my address is mstickler at lvh.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 10:48
From: CCASTELL.UNIX11 at mailsrv2.eldec.com (CCASTELL)
Subject: Re: Candi
db asks:
> First question: Does anyone know where you can get candi? If not,
what's
> a reasonable replacement?
There's a fairly new homebrew supply store in the northwest, Evergreen
Brewing Supply. Looking at their latest flyer of monthly specials, they
have a listing for "Belgian Candi Sugar, 275L, widely used by breweries
in Belgium". This goes for $6 per pound. I haven't used candi (yet).
Is it worth $6 per pound?
Also of interest (but not appropriate for this forum) is their British
peat moss smoked malt, $1.35 a pound.
Phone numbers: 1-800-789-BREW (206-882-9929 local)
No affiliation other than an increasingly frequent customer.
Charlie (ccastell at eldec.com)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 14:08:52 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Various...
Scott (bickham at msc.cornell.edu) writes:
> A new member of our brewclub who also happens to be a microbiologist,
> knows of a source for ash casks in 5, 10 or 15 gallons sizes. Does
> anyone know if these would be suitable for lambics?
I haven't a clue. I can't imagine ash being toxic to yeast/bacteria.
***************************************
Dave Resch writes:
> I have purchased two casks from a French company in Napa.
so what are you doing with them??
***************************************
douglass at physics.att.com (David Douglass) writes:
> Subject: Brewing update
>
> Since there seems to be a consensus that more brewing talk is
> necessary, I'll bring you up to date on my first (and only)
> endeavor.
....
> At bottling time, this stuff was crystal clear and smelled worse
> than a week old hippopotamus corpse. Feeling adventuresome, I
> actually drank one after about two weeks in the bottle. It was
> slightly carbonated, so that should be no problem in a month or
> so. There was no offensive odor, either. As for the taste, well...
> It didn't have any. A very mild, light beer with just a hint of
> clovey taste.
hmm...
> I have a feeling the Brett. and Pedio. cultures never got going,
> for some reason.
Certainly a possibility. Another is that they never really got going.
How long did you wait?
> They did seem okay in the starter, though.
This makes me wonder if you should have let the p-lambic sit longer.
(or if the conditions where wrong, or about 1 million other variables
that wheren't quite right)
> The recent discussion about the difficulty of
> keeping them viable in homebrew stores makes me a little suspicious
> that that may have been the problem.
The issue isn't one of the cultures dying off prematurely. Its one of
the cultures being ordered and then sitting on a shelf for longer than
the owner can remember. Certainly this has been the case with one
owner I've talk with. These are low turn-over critters. If there was
a higher turn-over the problem (which may or may not exist in reality)
certainly wouldn't exist. Its the old freshness problem.
> Suggestions for next time are of course welcome. Also, if any of
> the more learned among us is willing, I'd like to send a bottle to
> a competent judge for tasting. A discussion of it's flaws might be
> useful to a lot of us who are new to this style.
My insurance is paid up. I'll consider giving it a try.
> Personally, I
> have absolutely no idea what 'horsey' is supposed to mean, for
> example. The stuff I drank in Belgium did not exactly remind me of
> a barnyard.
hmm. Well, 'horsey' isn't something I can easily describe. It just _is_.
You know it when you first smell it. It stands out in most Cantillon
products, Boon's gueuze and Mariage Parfait, and numerous other products
from smaller brewers. Don't expect to find it in Lindeman's Peche.
*****************************
Donovan Bodishbaugh <dfb at acpub.duke.edu> writes:
> Subject: Re: Oak Casks
>
> Some questions about Digest #283 postings:
>
> > I would _STRONGLY_ recommend you spend some time calling various
> > wineries and cooperages to find a used casks. If you have to start from
> > new you'll need to run at least four or five batches of lambic through it
> > before you get something that isn't liquid wood.
>
> Why would anyone do this? Surely repeated boiling water or
> acidified water treatments would extract the oak tannins as well as wort.
One would think, but just trust me on this. I've tried _everything_.
When you're running what amounts to an alcohol extraction for a year
or two you'll get tannins that your water treatments didn't even dream
existed.
> I don't think I could bring myself to grind the wheat and malt, go through
> an elaborate decoction mash, and then wait for months, just to say "Yep,
> tastes like liquid wood allright", and dump it. Not even for one batch,
> let alone 4 or 5. I cannot believe this is the only way.
Yeah, its a hard road to follow, but it the only one thats really worked
for me so far.
> I find it
> amusing that in the HBD, people complain bitterly about glass carboy
> prices of $15 to $20, while we casually talk of acquiring several $100
> worth of fermentation vessels.
I hadn't thought about it. I guess it is amusing, huh?
zen at hophead.north.net (Nick Zentena) writes:
> First a question. The batch I started last year has a pH about
> the same has last year [both in the 3.5 range] but this years
> tastes much more acidic. Does that make any sense?
3.5 is a good number for a lambic.
As for it tasting more acidic could it be a change in the type of acid overall
(lactic->acetic)? could it be your tastes buds are going?
************************************
Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU> writes:
> Subject: Lambic the Technoweenie Way
> Now as far a pure culture lambic (PCL) making I have a few theories much of
> which is only supported by literature and not by my own practical experience.
>...
> This bacteria produces fair amounts of acid and also seems to produce a factor
> or cause a change in the media which actually inhibits the growth of yeasts.
> I do not know if the cause of this has yet been identified.
hint: its an acid. go read the thesis again - partularly the section on
pure culture experiments in the lab and the effect of various strains on
Saccharomyces growth. Its in the back half of the thesis that isn't solely
about enterics -- sorry, I don't remember the name & I don't have it here
to give you a page #. Oh, this acid doesn't inhibit the growth of yeasts
in general -- Brettanomyces is one obvious example of a yeast that isn't
inhibited.
>...
> I have a theory about p-lambic brewing. First after brewing one should allow
> the wort to cool overnight in a pot uncovered and then the next day put it into
> a fermenter of choice. This promotes infection with various oxygen dependent
> enterobacteria. This organism produce lactic and acetic acid which will
> contribute to the overall flavor later on. In the next day or 2 one should
> then add Kloeckera yeasts at a low innoculum of ~100 cells/ml and then wait 1-2
> weeks for them to use up most of the glucose along with the bacteria. This
> also allows time for the bacteria to continue growth as the oxygen is used
> slowly and the pH drops slowly.
I'm taking a different approach with my most recent batch. I'm pitching
a mixed culture of everything I can think of all at low concentrations.
(this was derived from various studies of the microbiological population
of lambic during the first few weeks of fermentations)
This is done to simulate what would be picked up from the overnight
cooling. I'm not convinced that the process is as sequential as you
have suggested above. Yes, Kloeckera is at high levels initially, but
a lot of other things are working in there too.
I'm not sure my approach is really correct either since its unclear how
many of the critters are picked up from the air and how many from the
casks. Luckily I have some well infected casks so I'm covered there too.
>...
> At the later stages avoid any transfers or other activity which may allow
> acetobacter to grow and over acidify the wort.
agreed.
--Mike
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
-------
