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Subject: Lambic Digest #297 (March 11, 1994)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 00:30:08 -0700
Lambic Digest #297 Fri 11 March 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Travel info, followup (Marc de Jonge)
Re: Belgian beer comments (Jim Busch)
Aaron's Abbey Ale ("Anderso_A")
Comments on Phil's comments (korz)
Spilling the beans on wit beers (bickham)
Re: Various (Rick Garvin)
RE RE: Various (Rick Garvin)
Warm Conditioning, Lactobacillus (C.R. Saikley)
Various ramblings, sorry if I got carried away. (Teddy Winstead)
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Date: Thu, 10 Mar 94 09:56:37 +0100
From: dejonge at tekserv.geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: Travel info, followup
In the lambic-digest 295 Phil Seitz gives some useful info
for Belgium travellers.
I would just like to add another hint which seems especially
suited for this forum:
Look for mussel dishes prepared with Belgian beer, they
are not always available, but IMO they are best of all: Mussels steamed
briefly in tripel,rodenbach or geuze beat any fancy wine or cream sauce.
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Marc de Jonge dejonge at geof.ruu.nl
Utrecht University, Geophysics dept, Utrecht, the Netherlands
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 10:15:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Belgian beer comments
Aaron writes:
>
> Suggestion... I have heard that lower temps REDUCE phenols
> (like clove) and most likely higher alchahols (solvent). Feel
> free to disagree, I'm no expert. Low wort aeration increases
> esters. So... If you like esters (fruit, bubble-gum, banana),
> pitch a good volume, but under-aerate your wort. Perhaps one should
> ferment this yeast in the low 60's to control solvent.
> Anyone out here have experience with this yeast?
I havent used this yeast, but I had the exact experience as Phil
when I judged 22 Belgians in last years Free Beer competition. The
esters are extreme, at least when a younger beer is entered. I
definetly would ferment this yeast at 60 - 64F, and I would always
use good aeriation techniques. I believe this under-aeriate stuff
is yet another Rajotte based claim, and not a requirement for the
yeast. I think the flavors will still be there with good O2.
>
> Phillip also suggested that trippels be low on fruity esters.
> I do not know what the style guidelines say, but my taste does not agree
> here. The commercial tripples I liked best did show fruitiness.
I liked Brugges Tripel and Westmalle best, and they fall on the
cleaner side of Tripples. Just last nite, we had an Affligem Tripple
and was too fruity/estery for me. Tastes do vary.
>
Mike writes:
>
Just a thought. Seriously consider relaxing the 12oz brown bottle requirement.
> The addition of a green/brown punted split with a cork would really help
> some of us (ok, maybe I'm the only purist?).
Im all for this. Bottle requirements are utter nonsense, especially
with special beers, they often deserve special bottles. We judge beers
not bottles.
On the subjest of regular orange in Wits vs dried Curacao, sure you can
get by with regular orange, but its not going to as good, or as authentic
as the real thing. Now that its available in th US, its worth the
effort to order it. (hey if Im gonna mash raw wheat, it better be worth
it!).
Good brewing,
Jim Busch
------------------------------
Date: 10 Mar 94 10:09:00 EST
From: "Anderso_A" <Anderso_A at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Aaron's Abbey Ale
The following attachments were included with this message:
__________________________________________________________________
TYPE : FILE
NAME : AARON
__________________________________________________________________
Greetings,
I tend to be a lurker on this Digest as I never really felt
qualified to offer my opinions. If I want to blab, I tend to stick
to the HBD. However, now I will have to ramble on as both Phil
Seitz and Rick Garvin have mentioned my Dubbel which finished 1st
in the Belgian Category of the recent HWBTA contest. What follows
is the recipe as well as the logic (Ha!) behind some of my
decisions.
Aaron's Abbey Ale
Brewing Date 11/11/93 OG 1.063
1st Racking Date 11/20/93 FG 1.014 6.5% Alc/Vol
2nd Racking Date 11/22/93
Bottling Date 11/27/93 - Age when judged: 3 Months
This beer is named for my nephew Aaron Anderson. He was born
on November 11, 1993 the very day I brewed this beer. Since I've
always liked alliterations, I figured Aaron's name was perfect to
go along with an Abbey-style ale. As soon as he was born we found
out he had Trisomy-18, or, Edward's Syndrome. This is a genetic
defect caused by having an additional 18th Chromosome. This
usually results in severe problems with internal organs as well as
brain damage or retardation. The average life-span for a child
born with this disorder is only 6 months. I realize it sounds
corny, but I kind of viewed this beer as my gift to Aaron.
My only hope was that Aaron lasts longer than the beer.
Ingredients:
6.75 lb Belgian Pilsner Malt
2 lb British Pale Malt
3 lb Belgian Biscuit Malt
4 oz. Belgian Special B Malt
1 lb Candi Sugar - 3/4 white, 1/4 dark (from Arabic store)
1.4 oz. Tettnanger pellets (4.4%), 60 minutes - 25 IBU
0.5 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker plug (2.9%) - Aroma only
1 Tbsp Irish Moss with 15 minutes left in boil
1 Qt of La Chouffe yeast (from a slant)
- --------
2 tsp Polyclar - At 2nd racking
- --------
1/2 tsp Heading Agent
About 5 oz. of La Chouffe yeast
4/5 Cup Dextrose for Priming
Concepts:
This was an experimental beer. It was the very first Belgian
Ale I had ever tried to make and it was only the second all-grain
beer I had made. (My all-grain friends tell me my extract beers
are only "cake-mixes".) I really was only planning to test several
new ingredients. The items tested were as follows:
1. 3 lb Biscuit Malt - I had not used this before, & I wondered
what a LOT of it would do to a beer. I like it.
2. 4 oz. Special B Malt - First time I used it. Nice deep color
without a burnt taste.
3. 1 lb Candi Sugar - Hey, I've got to do the Belgian thing ...
4. La Chouffe Yeast - First time for this.
5. A 5 hour mash - I'll explain later
6. "Cold" Ale fermentation temperatures.
Process:
I ran out of Belgian Pilsner Malt, which is why I also used
British Pale Malt. I attempted a warped form of protein rest by
stove-top mashing the grain with about 1/2 the necessary water at
about 120 F for 1/2 hour. I then transferred all the grain to a
cooler along with VERY hot water to raise the mash temp. up to
158 F. (I like higher mash temperatures to achieve more malty
taste.) I then covered the cooler with several blankets for
additional insulation.
It was Veterans Day, so I had multiple errands to run on my
day off from work. I even stopped by my local homebrew store and
had a few beers. By the time I finally got home, 5 hours had
elapsed. Oh well, ...
The blankets & cooler provided pretty good insulation, as the
temp. had only dropped 8 degrees to 150 F in the 5 hour time
period. I figured an iodine test wasn't necessary :-)
I then spent the next few hours sparging and boiling my wort.
After I had cooled the wort, pitched the yeast, and aerated the
whole mess, I moved the carboy into the basement. It was November
(& cold) and my basement fluctuates from 50 to 65 F. I placed the
carboy in a huge bucket of water to act as a thermal buffer. A
strip thermometer on the carboy said the temp. was between 55 &
60 F.
I had to rack the beer twice because evidently the La Chouffe
yeast likes to keep floating around. (I wouldn't recommend it for
a cask-conditioned British Pale Ale :->). After the 2nd racking I
added the Polyclar to help clarify the beer. When I bottled, I
added some fresh yeast into the bottling bucket, along with a
little extra priming sugar. I was attempting to duplicate the
lively, yeasty character of Belgian Ales.
I acknowledge the fusel alcohols that Rick Garvin had
mentioned were the downfall of this beer for BOS. I had hoped that
by fermenting at a relatively low temperature I would avoid this
problem, but I guess not. However, the lower temperatures seem to
reduce this problem.
Afterward:
I had hoped to see whether this beer would improve after
6 months or even 1 year in a bottle. However, that was not meant
to be. Aaron died on January 22, 1994 after only gracing us with
his wonderful presence for 72 short days. I drank a large portion
of the remaining Aaron's Abbey Ale in those next couple of days.
Andy Anderson
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 94 11:24 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Comments on Phil's comments
Conn writes, commenting on Phil's how-to-bru:
>> 2) Doubles. This is a tough beer to brew, as there still isn't a lot of
>> conventional wisdom regarding how to do it.
>>
>I don't personally rate doubles as that great a challenge. The yeast is not as
>idiosyncratic as with some other styles, and the flavour is robust enough that
>it will mask minor mistakes. It seems to me a question of getting the right
>combination of dark malts, dark sugar, and boil conditions. OK, so the wisdom
I must agree with Conn -- my first attempt at a Chimay Grand Reserve clone
was pretty close except that I got all kinds of banana and model airplane
glue aromatics from the Wyeast Belgian Ale (as Phil reported). Now I think
that it was a combination of the 65F ferment plus the heat generated from
the ferment of the 1087 wort. I think that this yeast may be usable, but
that it needs to be fermented cooler. A while ago, I polled the HBD members
for data on that yeast, but could find no correlation for the banana. Now,
I think that some of the people reporting simply had different perceptions
of the banana esters.
>The quality which sets Rodenbach apart from Liefmans, IMHO, is its oxidation
>products, which partly come about from 2 years' wood ageing. If anyone has a
>fast-track alternative, I would love to hear about it! Once we go down that
I feel that there is also definately some oakiness in Rodenbach, although I
only have tasted the blended version (imported) and not the Grand Cru. When
I cut down a dead oak in our yard, I had this insatiable urge to have a
Rodenbach -- no question about it. I've read that after every batch, the
large oak tuns are disassembled and each stave is gently scraped to expose
fresh wood. Given the two-to-three-year aging in these tuns, I'm sure that
even French oak will impart some flavors.
> 4) Triples. These should be high in strength (1.090s, for instance) but have
> nice, light body. They should not have fruity esters, but can be a bit
> malty or spicy and even show some noble hop character.
> This may be the one area where Wyeast Belgian might be of use.
> Under the right conditions it can produce a lot of Chimay-type flavors.
> However, ferment very cool (60F) if you try this.
>
I'm slightly confused here. I have rarely encountered significant phenols in
a triple, yet a Chimay-like yeast is being recommended?
I recently tasted some Westmalle Triple (thanks Tony!!!) and there are
some gentle phenols in there. I used to be very sensitive to phenols
(probably a reaction to some overindulgence in Weizens) and recall that
I felt the Westmalle Triple (when it used to be imported into the US)
was too phenolic for my taste. During the recent tasting I loved it,
but did indeed taste some phenolics (not too much) in there. I'm hesitant
to agree that the Wyeast Belgian would be appropriate here.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:21:16 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Spilling the beans on wit beers
As I imply below, the orange peel problem comes from using fresh zest,
not the dried peel. Here is an article I'm sending to our club newsletter
about brewing a Belgian white. Of course I'm giving all of my trade
secrets away, but just remember me if you ever see me anywhere with an
empty beer glass ;-) Sorry about the length, but hopefully it'll be
interesting reading.
- ----begin appended article----
My love for Belgian white beers is the main reason I started all-grain
brewing. Although Dave Miller gives an extract version in "Brewing the
World's Great Beers," it only makes a pleasant coriander golden ale.
As I do with any new style, I developed my recipe by reading as much
as I could on that style. I've brewed 4 batches, the first of which won
a best of show, scored above 40 in the AHA National First Round, and
finished in the top five among the Belgians at Portland last year. The
latest, which tastes very different (lemoney), placed 3rd at the HWBTA
Nationals last weekend.
Grains: The grain bill isn't very complex: 50% pilsner malt, 45% raw wheat
and 5% raw oats. Traditionally, the Belgians use hard red winter wheat, but
I found flaked wheat at a local health store, as well as the oats. I
wouldn't recommend using malted wheat, since it will impart other flavors.
The original gravity should be in the range 1.044-50, so I initially used 9.5
pounds of grain since I wasn't too sure of my extraction. The enzymatic
capability of most good pilsner malts isn't enough to handle all of the
adjuncts, so I found I got 28 points/pound/gallon with both a corona and
a roller mill. The gravity is a little high (1.056-58), and while the
judges didn't seem to mind, I'm dropping that to 1.052 or so in my next
batch. I wasn't too worried about haziness, so I do a step infusion:
1. Mash-in at 110 F
2. After 5 minutes, check pH. If it's above 6, add a little
lactic acid (our water has lots of minerals and a pH that often
approaches 9. With pale malts,I can't always buffer it down enough
with brewing salts)
3. Protein rest for 45 minutes at 124 F
4. Starch conversion for 60 minutes at 152-154 F.
5. Mashout for 10 minutes at 168 F.
6. Sparge to 6.3 gallons with 168F acidified water (pH around 5.7)
Hops: According to the literature, Styrian Golding is a popular bittering
hop, so I used 0.75 oz. from hop plugs. This gives close to 20 IBUs, but
I get a few more from 0.5 oz. Saaz put in with 15 minutes left in the boil.
I also dry hop with another 0.5 oz of Saaz. I find that the sweet spiciness
contributes to the overall character.
Coriander: I apologize for not weighing the quantities, but I make two
additions: 1.5 tsp of finely ground coriander half way through the boil,
and another 1 tsp. with the dry hops. I've also used freshly ground
coriander, but without weighing, it's difficult to compare the results.
Orange Peel: This is a critical ingredient, especially if using lactic
acid for tartness. In my first batch, I made two additions of 0.5 oz. of
dried orange peel from an herb shop: 15 minutes in the boil, and again
with the dry hops. Judges comments indicated that I needed more, as well
as some tartness, so I made the mistake of using fresh zest with a lacto-
bacillus addition. The resulting wit comes across as citrusy, and even
lemoney. As a physicist, I should know better than to change more than
one variable at a time! In my next batch I'll try to get some of the
bitter orange peel, but will also use *dried* sweet orange peel and forget
about using fresh zest.
Yeast: I've made three batches with the Wyeast Belgian Ale strain with
excellent results. Since the gravity isn't abbey strength, I don't get
the fermentation flaws such as high ester levels, fusels, etc. Instead
I get a decent ester level which really compliments the flavor. I used
the Wyeast Belgian White strain in my latest batch, and while it gives
similar flavors, it left the beer a little too clear and isn't very
active at 65 F, which is my typical fermentation temperature.
Lactic Character: The easiest way to get this is to add lactic acid by
taste. I've never done this but try adding up to 1 tsp. in 1/8 tsp.
amounts until you're satisfied. Wit beers should actually be slightly
dry, so I get both the acidity and dryness with lactobacillus. I'm in
the process of making some cultures, and if I'm successful, I'll send
a slant to someone who knows more about yeast. In other words, for all
I know, I have a yeast that produces lactic acid and not lactobacillus,
and if so, I won't be able to separate it from the principle ale yeast.
The problem with using the strain I have is that it tends to dominate the
fermentation, which could leave the beer pretty sour. Actually, wit beers
before Celis revived them through Hoegaarden were sometime extremely sour,
but some judges ignore this little tidbit and score a wit with more than
average lactic sourness extremely low, comparing it to the Berliner Weiss
style. Feh. I've found that I get good results by adding the lactic yeast
when the gravity falls below 1.020.
As a summary, here will be my next 5 gallon batch. If you do water
treatment, try to aim for a mineral content similar to Munich.
4.75 lb. Belgian pilsner malt
3.5 lb. wheat flakes
0.4 lb. oat flakes
{use mash schedule above}
Boil for 75 minutes total:
0.75 oz. Styrian Goldings (60 minutes)
1.5 tsp. finely ground coriander (30 minutes)
0.5 oz. Saaz (15 to 20 minutes)
0.75 oz. dried orange peel (5 minutes)
0.75 oz. dried orange peel (dry hop)
0.5 oz. Saaz (dry hop)
1 tsp finely ground coriander (dry hop)
Force cool to 75 F, pitch a Wyeast Belgian or Belgian White starter.
Rack to secondary after 4-6 days, adding hops and spices. I'll add the
lactobacillus/lactic yeast after another 4-6 days, leaving in the secondary
for a total of 2 weeks. Otherwise, use lactic acid when bottling,
along with 5/8 to 3/4 cup of glucose for priming. Starting gravity should
be around 1.050, and final gravity will be about 1.009 with the lacto-
bacillus, 1.012 without.
- ---- end appended article----
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:33:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Garvin <rgarvin at access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Various
Phil writes:
> >The HWBTA National went this past weekend as Phil noted. Phil Seitz,
> >Scott Bickham, David Ruggerio and Debra Nathanson were the judges. I was
>
> Just for the record, Scott Bickham (who took third place) did NOT judge
> this category--the fourth judge was Bill Szymczak (who took BOS).
>
True True. I just mis-remembered that one.
Cheers, Rick
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:36:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Garvin <rgarvin at access.digex.net>
Subject: RE RE: Various
Again, Phil writes:
> >The addition of a green/brown punted split with a cork would really help
> >some of us (ok, maybe I'm the only purist?).
>
> At the AWHBTA nobody was thrown out (that I'm aware of) for having
> non-standard bottles, and there were plenty of them. While I don't
> want to encourage this, it's not something that I've seen people get
> trashed for. Of course, if you're going to offer what LOOKs like a
> great lambic, you'd BETTER follow up with the contents!
Actually, non-standard bottles were disqualified, but judges so that the
individuals could get the comments. There were three entries from one
person in Grolsch bottles. They were not contenders.
I agree that relaxing the bottle requirement COULD make sense. How do we
address the blind tasting issue?
Cheers, Rick
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 94 13:11:08 PST
From: humphrey!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Warm Conditioning, Lactobacillus
Greetings All,
I Haven't had much time for the Digest lately, but a couple of items
came up which I couldn't resist.
Jim Liddil asks:
>>But don't some breweries condition at warm temps or is this just more Jackson
>>mythology?
To which Phil responds :
>The only thing I can contribute here is that the Binchoise brewery has
>a special heated room for conditioning their beer; the temp is a steady
>70 degrees (the rest of the place if f#$% at cold!). The Caracole
>brewery conditions its beer in the proprietor's mother-in-law's
>garage. Generally, heating is always necessary to reach 70F in
>Belgium, and this costs money. I haven't seen anybody spending it
>there for this purpose.
Warm conditioning is definitely *not* Jackson mythology or Rajotte
misinformation. The Dupont brewery in Tourpes (province of Hainaut).
conditions their beers for 6-8 weeks at 25C. Also, Brouwerij De
Gouden Boom in Brugge, has a very large warm conditioning room which
is kept at 23-25C. It was heated in July. These are two examples I
remember, there are no doubt more.
On another topic, it was recently suggested (by Phil I believe) that
the sourness in an Oud Bruin be achieved by Pedio innoculation. The
somewhat secretive folks at Liefmans say that Lactobacillus strains,
and not Pediococcus strains, are responsible for souring their beers.
The folks at Rodenbach are completely honest and open about their
beers. They have identified 22 different beasties in their 150 year
old yeast. It's never been recultured, they just keep on brewin' and
let it evolve. Lactobacillus is responsible for souring their beers
as well. They were kind enough to give me a liter of dense slurry.
Now if I could just get a 65,000 liter oak barrel or two....
CR
are responsible for
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 19:44:31 -0600 (CST)
From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead)
Subject: Various ramblings, sorry if I got carried away.
Some various stuff that I thought that I'd reply to --
Somebody named VOLKER asks about pure raspberry syrup.
They have it in New Orleans at Martin's Wine Cellar. I saw it with
thoughts of Framboise running through my head, but when I saw the
price tag, I nearly fell on the floor. It was something like $12
for about a pint and a half. Frozen berries are much more economical.
They'd probably work better too.
Spencer Thomas writes about using Wheat Flour in his beers.
This is not uncommon. Rajotte published a few recipes calling for
this in his "Belgian Ale" book (which I would recommend). Raw
whole wheat will work fine too. Just cook it first, or do and extended
protein rest.
Phil Seitz writes about travelling in Belgium.
I feel obliged to add this. If you are going to the Cartoon Museum in
Brussels, there's a GREAT place to eat right around the corner. OK,
if you walk out the front door of the place, and turn left, then walk to
the next corner and turn right, cross the street, there's this little
bar that serves lunch. All that they have is spaghetti, but they make
three different kinds, and it's superb. I drank two or three Hoegaartens
there (from the tap, of course), ate lunch, and had cofee for about $5-$7
US. I feel warm all over thinking about the place.
Also, CAMRA Belgium puts out a pub list for Brussels/Antwerp/Ghent/Brugge.
It's all in one document. This was probably the best tour book we had
on our trip. :-)
The only place that I ever saw it for sale was at the Musee de la Gueze
(Cantillon Brewery) which is not to be missed. I'd quote extensive sections
of it here, but it has some pretty wicked copyrights printed on it, so
just e-mail me for more info. ;-)
Finally, there was some info about the Brickskeller in DC holding a Belgian
tasting, and having one of De Dolle Brouwers (sp?) hosting.
HARRASS HIM AND POUR DRINKS DOWN HIS THROAT UNTIL HE GIVES UP HIS RECIPES!
Then post them here, of course. Actually I'm about to start experimenting
making some beers with the info that I got about their beers from this
list earlier (Thanks to everyone who replied). I'll keep the group
posted. Unfortunately, these beers aren't availible in N.O. yet so
I won't have anything to go on. :-(
Happy Brewin' everyone!
- --
Teddy Winstead
winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu
winstead at cs.tulane.edu
Computer Science Undergraduate
Fanatical Homebrewer
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
-------
