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Lambic Digest #0330
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Subject: Lambic Digest #330 (April 29, 1994)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 00:30:09 -0600
Lambic Digest #330 Fri 29 April 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
re: Verachtert paper(s) (Michael Sharp)
Hoegarden/Celis Wit recipe (slkinsey)
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 15:22:35 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: re: Verachtert paper(s)
thomasr at ezrz1.vmsmail.ethz.ch (ROB THOMAS) writes:
> Subject: strange starter/Verachtert paper
>
> Hello all,
> A couple of points.
> I've already pestered Dan M on the first one, but impetuous as ever,
> and slightly worried about what I'll find when I get home tonight,
> I thought I'd ask the group as a whole:
> I made up a starter from a Mort Subite Gueze on saturday.
...
> Any ideas as to what this may be?
any of a host of things. unfortunately you can't do taxonomy based
on what you've told us about...
> Is this a very fast pellicle or is it an unwanted guest?
getting a pellicle from pedio _or_ brett this fast (from a bottle culture)
is a little wierd. Pellicles from such fastidious critters usually
take much longer to form. Its possible, but I wouldn't put money on it.
Kloeckera sometimes behaves the way you describe this, but thats a really
huge shot in the dark on my part.
> I'm extremely reluctant to taste this stuff due to its
> unattractive appearance.
You won't taste it, but you'll put it in your beer???
> I suppose the first thing I should do is
> plate it. What then? What kind of magnification do I need on
> a microscope to see the cell shapes?
Cell shapes don't tell you much at all. You'll be able to tell
yeast from bacteria, but you won't be able to make much more of a
determination. If you're looking for bacteria and have good eyes
400x will do it (yeah, I know people say 1000x minimum, but _I_
can see pedio. and 440x - so there!). If your eyes aren't so good,
or your microscopy skills are rusty then go 1000x. If you have
access to (or money to burn) phase contrast microscopes are fun to play
with, but otherwise generally unnecessary. (though they do make sorting
things out a bit easier)
> Will I get home tonight to find my kitchen oozing with frothy bugs?
You'll find out before you read this reply. 8-)
> On a second note, I was reading a couple of papers by Prof.
> Verachtert on bugs during lambic fermentation. The newer (1990?)
> review type artical lead me back to an older paper from 1977.
> In this I found a number of points that peeked my interest:
> Firstly that "the very fast growth of enterobacteriaceae and
> of Kl. apiculata results in a decrease of the pH from 5.1 to
> 4.6. This coincides with the synthesis of amounts of acetic acid
> of the same order of magnitude as found in the final product."
> Thus my question: in for instance Cantillon, are these enteros
> and Kl. apiculata more prevelent than in lambics with lower
> acetic flavour?
Certainly the growth curves of the various organisms differ from
brewery to brewery, but I wouldn't claim that a single organism
at a particular stage of the beer's fermentation is solely
responsible for the intense acidity of a beer like Cantillon.
There are many acid producers involved in the lambic process
& I hesitate to pin the results on any one of them.
However, what you suggest certainly may play a role.
> Another note: he describes the brett flavour in the earlier
> paper as mousy? So which furry animal/farmyard setting best
> describes it?
mousey is a wine term that I've always heard mentioned in the
same breath as horsey and goaty. perhaps a wine geek can help
you split hairs on these?
> Third note: pedd infection coincided with the summer months.
> Does thisindicate when we should do it?
yup. its warmer in the brewer's cellars then & hence the increase
in the bacterial concentrations (from what I understand). With
modern conveniences like heat & A/C we don't _really_ need to brew
according to the seasons, but if you want to be really anal in your
'traditional' approach...
> Final point:
> the samples taken were from the fermenting lambic, drawn from
> the central end apperture only. Does anyone have data to compare
> microbiological profiles at this part of the barrel to particularly
> the top, where the pelicle etc forms? Presumable there could be
> massive differences in a 650 litre barrel.
Persumably you are correct. I've never seen such a study.
> How amenable
> are the brewers to giving VERY young samples?
I'll skip commenting on this.
I would like to point out that if you bring a sample back you shouldn't
do the usual isolating for singles, etc. you'll have a whole mixed bag
& thats just what you want in your fermenter.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 23:04:42 EDT
From: slkinsey at aol.com
Subject: Hoegarden/Celis Wit recipe
Here is a recipe which I have made a few times that tastes very much like the
real thing...
This beer takes two mashes: In addition to the regular mash, there is a
"Lactic mash" to acidify the regular mash and provide a measure of lactic
sourness which would normally be provided by a lactic infection during
fermentation (Pierre Celis stops this souring infection after a week,
however, by pasteurization and repitches the yeast to complete the
fermentation - a lactic mash is a good comprimise I think)
L
actic Mash:
0.50 pound Belgian 2 row malt
0.50 pound Belgian 6 row malt
Main mash:
2.
25 pounds Belgian 2 row malt
2.25 pounds Belgian 6 row malt
4 .00 pounds unmalted hard re
d wheat (ground very fine)
0.25 pound oats
Other ingredients:
0.25 ounce bitter orange quar
ters, milled (15 minutes)
0.25 ounce fresh whole coriander, milled (15 minutes)
5 .00 AAUs bittering , equal portions of Willamette and Cascade leaf hops
Wyeast #3944 - Belgian White Beer Yeast
Lactic mash:
Prepare 48 hours prior to main mash. Fully saccharify the mash, cool to 120
degrees and in
oculate with Lactobacillus Delbruckii (either with commercial inoculant or
with a handful of dry crushed malt), and rest airtight at 120 degrees for 48
hours. Discard any discolored grains and add to
main mash at doughing in.
Main mash:
Dough in and acid rest 95 degrees 30 minutes (add l
actic mash)
Protein rest 122 degrees 30 minutes
Saccharification rest 150 degrees 45 mi
nutes
Saccharification rest 161 degrees 15 minutes
Mash out 168 degrees 10 minutes
Fer
mentation:
Settling: Force wort cool, rack into settling vessel, rack beer off trub
within 6 hou
rs.
Primary: 1 week at 64-75 degrees
Secondary: 4-5 weeks at 54-59 degrees
Bottling/priming:
Fresh yeast culture and glucose. Correct to around pH 3.9-4.1 with lactic
acid.
Bottle fermentation: 10 days at 77 degrees
The grain bill is based on one which was quoted from Pierre Celis, and the
mash schedule comes directly from his brewery in Texas. The fermentation
schedule is from M. Jackson's "World Guide to Beer" and is quoted as being
the Hoegarden procedure. You also need to use hard red winter wheat to get
the correct flavor, the soft white stuff just doesn't taste the same.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey
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End of Lambic Digest
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