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Lambic Digest #0291
From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Thu Mar 3 03:30:05 1994
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Subject: Lambic Digest #291 (March 03, 1994)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 00:30:08 -0700
Lambic Digest #291 Thu 03 March 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Candi sugar again (Marc de Jonge)
HDM = Huis Descamp Malting ("Phillip Seitz")
Re: Lambic Digest #290 (March 02, 1994) ("Phillip Seitz")
Westmalle Yeast + McFarland (korz)
horsey sense (Russell Gelinas)
Interaction of S. cerevisiae and K. apliculata (Michael Sharp)
The Battle of the Nitwits (Jim Liddil)
White Beers (Teddy Winstead)
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Date: Wed, 2 Mar 94 10:44:55 +0100
From: dejonge at tekserv.geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: Candi sugar again
In Lambic Digest #290 Jeff Frane writes:
> In respect to dark candi sugar, I would second Phil Seitz's note that --
> once again, in despite of the AHA and Rajotte -- you should not expect a
> color contribution of any significance.
I suggest you do the same simple experiment I did:
Dissolve 10g of brown candi in 100 ml water and compare the resulting
colour to a known beer (you'll probably have to dilute the sugar solution).
The different makes of candi I've tested give colours 2 to 6 times darker than
de Koninck: that means in the 40-120 EBC range (something like 60-200L).
> I believe that the dark sugar
> *does* provide a specific flavor contribution, although it may be
> slight, but haven't had the opportunity to do a control.
There is a flavour effect but that's not the only reason to add Candi.
The amounts found in some Belgian beers have a strong effect on final
gravity, body and mouthfeel: I expect an all-malt version of say Rochefort 10,
coloured with only caramel malts, would serve better as pancake syrup.
> I think that
> sensitive, judicious use of Belgian caramel malts (and especially
> Special B) is far more critical.
For the flavour I agree, but not for the overall character of the beer.
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Marc de Jonge dejonge at geof.ruu.nl
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 94 10:02:55 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: HDM = Huis Descamp Malting
I beg pardon for cross-posting this information, as I think it would be
of interest to a number of different groups.
As many people have noted, there are now two brands of Belgian malts on
the U.S. market. Interbrew's DeWolf-Cosyns varieties are possibly the best
known, though the second brand, known cryptically as HDM, has (in my
experience) also proved to be a nice performer.
Thanks to a kind correspondant in Belgium, I've confirmed that this
malt comes from the Descamp maltings. Here's a slice of his message:
>I have a rather good knowledge of HDM (Huis Descamp Malting). The house is
>in Gembloux (between Namur and Ottignies). A part of the production is made
>in Bruges. They have renewed their entreprise two
>years ago (with an original methods :"case de germination sur tapis roulant
>horizontaux"). [Rough translation: germination on horizontal floor rollers]
>
>It's amazing that you mention HDM this week because I just learned that
>the HDM is going bankrupt. In fact, it seems possible
>that a Danish [firm will] purchase HDM (a strategic bankruptcy, perhaps).
I can personally attest that they have a very modern facility (recently
rebuilt, as stated above), though the facade of the building is
protected under a historic easement, and looks about the way a maltery
would look in, say 1930s Belgium.
Gembloux is also home to an agriculture school, roughly the Belgian
equivalent of Texas A&M.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 94 10:07:35 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #290 (March 02, 1994)
David Berg notes:
>Last night I cracked open a bottle of Liefman's Goudenband. After
>polishing that off (it was a magnum) I decided to attempt to culture
>the yeast. I used some wort I had canned in this attempt. My question
>is: is the yeast contained in the bottle viable (assuming it's not dead) and
>will it be usable, or is it just yeast they pitch for bottling?
During a tour of the brewery we were told that all the Liefmans
products are filtered, sweetened, and force carbonated. I tend to
believe this, as the samples we had from the fermenters were MUCH more
sour than the finished product.
That wouldn't bode well for your yeast culture. On the other hand,
nobody should trust the information on these tours 100%, so.....
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 94 10:14 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Westmalle Yeast + McFarland
Norman writes:
>flavor black malt) and got a rousing fermentation going this morning
>from the Westmalle yeast I used. This brew was actually the second
Have you had success with this yeast in the past? I've read that they use
a bottling yeast which is very unattenuative. Did you get the yeast from
a bottle or did you get it from the brewery?
On a releated note, my cousin and I tasted some hand-carried Westmalle
Dubbel (from the Netherlands) yesterday, and it had a perfumy nose that
I did not notice in Imported bottles. It was brought over perhaps 9
months ago, but was "best by" dated: 220295 and kept at 54F all nine
months. The flavor was the same, but the nose was definately fresher
than what we get here.
Finally, has anyone ever tasted McFarland Golden Fire or McFarland Red Beer?
The Red was okay, but the Golden Fire, I would say, was roughly in the Belgian
Abbey Ale style. A bit weaker in both nose and palate, but resembling
St. Sebastians (sp?) Abbey (Crock) Ale. Both beers tasted very Belgian.
Now here are the kickers:
1. Jackson says they are bottom fermented.
2. they are brewed in Italy!
3. they are brewed by Birra Dreher!
Yes, that's the brewery founded by Anton Dreher, originator of the Vienna
style of beer. I'll bet that Anton Dreher is spinning in his grave from
the levels of higher alcohols and wacky esters in these beers. Ironic.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 16:11:53 -0500 (EST)
From: gelinas at ekman.unh.edu (Russell Gelinas)
Subject: horsey sense
The best way to experience exactly what that "horsey" lambic aroma is
all about is, to visit a horse. Yes indeed, go to a place that has horses.
Preferably in warm weather. Watch the horses run. Wait for a sweaty horse
to come by. Breath. Go to the stables. Watch them brush off the sweat
with a big window-cleaner type thingy. Breath again. That is horsey.
Watch out for the green-head (ie. horse) flies! And watch your step.
Russ Gelinas
eos
unh
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 94 13:12:26 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Interaction of S. cerevisiae and K. apliculata
hi folks,
Found an interesting (for geeks anyway) abstract that I thought might amuse
you. Here is yet another example of lambics being a halfway point between
beer and wine.
I'm attempting to contact the authors to get the full text of the paper.
--Mike
> ACTION OF MIXED YEAST ON AN UGNI BLANC MUST:
> COMBINATION OF SACCAROMYCES CEREVISIAE AND KLOEKERA APICULATA.
>
> C. Roulland, S. Berty, and B. Galy
>
> Station Viticole du BNIC, 69 rue de Bellefonds, F-16100 Cognac.
>
> The study involved two strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae selected in the
> region of Cognac. They were tested on the pilot scale (Ugni blanc must
> pasteurized and fermented in a 100 liter stainless steel tank), individally or
> in combination with a strain of Kloekera apiculata (species frequently
> identified in alcoholic fermentation in wines destined to produce Cognac wine
> spirits). The two species were inoculated at the same time scale, in the
> proportion of 50 % S. cerevisiae, 50 % K. apiculata. The combination of two
> S. cerevisiae strains with K. apiculata was also studied (50 % KA, 25 % SC1,
> 25 % SC2). The five test modalities were run in duplicate and the inoculation
> level was 10e+5 cells/ml. The growth of S. cerevisiae is quite affected by the
> presence of K. apiculata during the first 2 or 3 days of the alcoholic
> fermentation. These interactions do reveal themselves by a slower begining of
> alcoholic fermentation. On the analytical point of vue, the compositions of
> the two wines obtained, are very similar.
> Additional data involving S. cerevisiae/K. apiculata interactions were obtained
> from laboratory scale tests (fermentation in 1.5 liter flasks and
> microdistillation). The combination of the two species on this scale was
> studied in several proportions :
> 100 % SC ; 90 % SC ; 50 % SC ; 10 % SC ; 0 % SC ;
> 0 % KA ; 10 % KA ; 50 % KA ; 90 % KA ; 100 % KA ;
> Two inoculation levels were tested : 10e+4 and 10e+5 cells/ml. Overall, in
> contrast to pilot scale observations, the multiplication of S. cerevisiae
> was affected little (inoculation with 10e+5 cells/ml) or not at all (10+4
> cells/ml) by the presence of K. apiculate. However, the presence of
> S. cerevisiae caused a more or less rapid decrease in the K. apiculata
> population, depending on the modality. The analysis of wines and
> microdistillates show that the maintaning of K. apiculata in stationary phase
> for several days led to considerable increase in both volatile acidity and
> ethyl acetate contents.
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 18:41:34 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: The Battle of the Nitwits
% % My point was that the "order" of fermentation of lambics is not
% necessarily obeyed by the critters in your kitchen. According to Guinard,
% the enterics (and, btw, E. coli is not one of the enterics listed by
% Guinard) take over first, and are subdued by the yeasts. In a batch I
% brewed last spring the enterics took over, but were not only not inhibited
% by the yeast, they actually kept growing to the extent that there was a
% SECOND KRAEUSEN from bacterial activity weeks after the yeast had gone
% dormant.
Guinard does not mention E. coli but the dissertation and papers from Leuven
do. It is indeed possible tha enterics can take over but if one follows the
course of things one could concievably add an extra dose of pedio and brett to
really kill off the critters. But I think you make a very important point
about the natural course of things. If guinard had his way he would have never
written anything about recipes but the AHA expects such things from the book
series.
% I was making an example. To elaborate, botulism is a toxin
% produced by bacteria. The bacteria need not be present for the food to
% kill you. That's why you can get botulism from cooked food. The moral
% being that faith in the "Nothing pathogenic can live in beer" does not
% guarrantee that something yucky can easily spoil your p-Lambic. A good
% Hafnia infestation, if allowed to survive too long will take your DMS
% levels through the roof.
This is correct but if I recall correctly the other organisms reduce the DMS
over time to insognificant levels. But this is on the order of two years.
% Aha. The microflora in your kitchen/backyard are immensely
% different from those in the attic of a lambic brewery. Your kitchen is
% full of not only enteric and other vbacteria, but Penicilium spores and
% scores of other moulds and weird things. The attics of Lambic breweries
% have been selectively breeding certain bacteria (and bats) for generations.
%
You are right. Here in arizona we have various pigmented forms and staph
floating around according to a air quality guy I spoke to. As well as yeasts
and molds. So yes my brewery is not like a blegians. But Boon is in a
relatively new place and the air and the all important cask provide the
microflora.
% It is worth trying. It has been tried before, and will be again.
% I feel though that it IS something to worry about, and if one is truly
% serious about making a decent p-Lambic, they should read up and understand
% what they are doing. You have obviously done your homework, except I still
% stick to my original comment which was that E. coli in your wort should not
% be taken with a cavalier attitude. This is not because it may show up in
% the finnished product after two years in the bottle. It may not only
% produce off-flavours, but may survive long enough in the fermenting wort to
% cause serious illness if a sample is taken at say, 2-3 months. There are a
% gazillion strains of E. coli, and some are very unpleasant indeed.
An excellent point. I would plan to micorscopically test the wort first prior
to tasting I think. Has anyone out there ever cooled the wort overnight and
then tasted it at 2-3 months and gotten sick? Enquring minds want to know?
And aren't E. coli relatively intolerant to low pH and alcohol over 2%?
JIm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:43:27 -0600 (CST)
From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead)
Subject: White Beers
I've been experimenting with white beers.
I'm extremely happy with the Wyeast Belgian White strain, but I just
ordered the "Belgian Wheat" strain from Brewer's Resource
(disclaimer...). Has anyone else out there experimented with this
strain? Is this just recultured Hoegaarten sediment?
Also, I recently got and read the "Belgian Ales". Good reading, but
has anyone else out there noticed the striking similarities between
Lambic/Geuze and Wit Bier? I find it remarkable. It seems that they
could have even been the same thing some time ago, then diverged in
the recent future. (I'm refering to the brewing process and the
common element of spontaneous fermentation).
Finally, where can I get a copy of "Les Memoires du Jef Lambic"? My
francais is pretty good, and I'd like to get the original French. Is
there a reprinting availible?
- --
Teddy Winstead "He that buys land buys many stones,
winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu He that buys meat buys many bones,
winstead at cs.tulane.edu He that buys eggs buys many shells,
Computer Science Undergraduate He that buys good ale buys nothing else."
Fanatical Homebrewer -- John Ray, English Proverbs
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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