Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Lambic Digest #9401
Lambic Digest #9401 Sat 01 Jan 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to:
lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to:
netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu
A FAQ is also available by netlib; say 'send faq from lambic' as the
subject or body of your message.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 00:28:32 +0100
From: dejonge at tekserv.geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: candi colour
With regards to the ongoing discussion on the colour contribution of
dark candi sugar, some datapoints from my kitchen:
Brown candi sugar (.5" crystals) 1g/10ml gives a colour of 60-70 EBC
Dark brewers candi (1" crystals) 1g/10ml gives a colour of 110-120 EBC
(diluted until identical to the colour of de Koninck (23 EBC))
That puts the colour of these sugars in the medium to dark crystal malt
range. So I would definitely expect some effect on the final beer colour.
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Marc de Jonge dejonge at geof.ruu.nl
Utrecht University, Geophysics dept, Utrecht, the Netherlands
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 1994 11:24:06 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: white beer whiteness
Sorry I'm a little late on this thread, but I've been away for the last
week.
I would like to point out that wit whiteness is not just chill
haze, but permanent haze. I too have made crystal clear wits (and cloudy
pale ales... go figure) with 50% wheat, albeit half of the wheat was
malted. Going back through my references, as well as running a few
experiments has led me to the conclusion that the problem is that I'm
sparging as if I'm making, pardon the expression, a "regular" beer. I
think in my next attempt I will recirculate an absolute minimal amount,
just enough to remove any chunky matter. I intend to stir up the mash
periodically when the runnings get too clear. During a long boil a small
quantity of the starch which is insoluble in the mash will dissolve,
increasing the body and mouthfeel. Much of the rest of the starch will
drop out during fermentation. The result should be a nicely hazy white
beer.
____________
Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. |
Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________|
------------------------------
Date: 03 Jan 1994 16:48:56 -0500 (EST)
From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
Subject: Judging the Belgians
I'm been on vacation. But way back on Dec. 21, Jeff Frane said:
>...................................................I have to strongly
>disagree with something Mike Sharp said awhile back, in reference to the
>mythical Bay Area Faux-Belgian Tasting. Mike seems to think that the
>AHA has got a handle on the non-lambic Belgian styles and that the
>judging of them isn't a problem. I'll grant you that at the final round
>there was a least one intelligent judge on the panel that I saw, but it
Aw, shucks, Jeff, you're making me blush! :-)
I was on that final round panel at the Nationals and I'd say that the panel had
significantly more than 'one intelligent judge.' I can't name all of the
judges (Martin, can you help me out here?), but they included Martin Lodahl,
Paddy Giffen, and, ummm, well, me. The other judges, whose names I
can't recall at the moment, also appeared to be well versed in the ways of
Belgian beer.
What _was_ aggrevating about the final round was not the quality of judges, it
was the number of judges. We had six (?) on our panel. With one bottle to
taste from it was absolutely impossible to have enough beer left to discuss the
ranking of the entries other than from memory.
Phooey on the AHA for doing the Nationals this way. Three judges per category
at the final round is enough. I see no need for more.
Steve Stroud
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 09:35:32 MST
From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: making candi
I can get glucose, fructose, "table" sugar (generic, and cane), turbinado,
brown, demura, little "semi-processed" sugar cones from cane (i guess these
are common in mexico and central america), molasses, treacle....
possibly more... i do not remember.
Which would be best to carmelize for "candi"?
aaron
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 09:45:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Candi Sugar
In LD #247 Aaron Birenboim asks about caramelizing his own sugar.
FWIW I have used both glucose and sucrose (table sugar). In the amounts
I have used (~1 lb/5 gals, OG > 1.065) I cannot tell the difference. I
would not use any of the dark sugars (turbinado, brown, etc) unless you
want some of that molassess flavor. The caramel flavor is definetly not
molassess like.
Sante' WAK
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 08:28:38 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Caramelizing sucre
> From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
> Subject: making candi
>
>
> I can get glucose, fructose, "table" sugar (generic, and cane), turbinado,
> brown, demura, little "semi-processed" sugar cones from cane (i guess these
> are common in mexico and central america), molasses, treacle....
> possibly more... i do not remember.
>
> Which would be best to carmelize for "candi"?
>
Sucrose, i.e., table sugar. When it's completely refined, there is no
difference between sugar derived from cane and that derived from beets.
Michael Jackson (and, I think, Rajotte) claim that Belgian candi sugar
retains residuals that affect the flavor/character of the beer, but I
find no evidence of that anywhere. In fact, the only evidence I can
find is to the contrary: beet sugar (which is what they grow in Belgium)
must be entirely refined or the left-over flavors are *offensive*.
Without my notes, I'm not positive, but I think you might also do well
caramelizing invert sugar.
- --Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 08:36:19 -0800 (PST)
From: malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl)
Subject: Belgian Judging, '93 AHA Nat'ls.
In Lambic Digest #247, Steve Stroud said:
> I was on that final round panel at the Nationals and I'd say that the panel had
> significantly more than 'one intelligent judge.' I can't name all of the
> judges (Martin, can you help me out here?), but they included Martin Lodahl,
> Paddy Giffen, and, ummm, well, me. The other judges, whose names I
> can't recall at the moment, also appeared to be well versed in the ways of
> Belgian beer.
Gosh, you caught me flat-footed. One additional name that comes
to mind is Charlie Olchowski, who had returned from Belgium only
days before. And then I think there was Michael Byers, a very
experienced judge of the Belgian styles, but I could be wrong
about that. And there was at least one more. Caramba!
> What _was_ aggrevating about the final round was not the quality of judges, it
> was the number of judges. We had six (?) on our panel. With one bottle to
It was quite a crowd. The fact that there was a small coterie of
stewards lurking in case of any remaining dregs didn't help, either.
> taste from it was absolutely impossible to have enough beer left to discuss the
> ranking of the entries other than from memory.
Not to mention the fact that with so many people around the table,
the normal give-and-take of arriving at a consensus was all but
impossible, despite the fact that there wasn't a single rude or
overbearing judge on the panel.
> Phooey on the AHA for doing the Nationals this way. Three judges per category
> at the final round is enough. I see no need for more.
A-A-A-AMEN!! The only exception I'll admit to is perhaps an apprentice
as the fourth judge, but not in the finals. Three-judge panels strike
me as optimal.
I do agree, however, that the judging of the Belgian styles is still
pretty spotty. One reason for that is that for the majority of the
judge pool the only contact with the commercial standards has been
imports, which generally seem to be ancient and abused. I've had
more than a few homebrews that are closer to fresh originals, than
imported commercial beers are.
= Martin Lodahl Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning, Pacific*Bell =
= malodah at pacbell.com Sacramento, CA USA 916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me! (Unk.) =
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 10:09 PST
From: Kyle R Roberson <kr_roberson at pnlg.pnl.gov>
Subject: pH of Celis White?
Can (has) someone measure(d) the pH of Celis White? Please quote accuracy of
the technique (i.e. +/- 0.2) if available. TIA. Kyle
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 08:59:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Celis Ph
> From: Kyle R Roberson <kr_roberson at pnlg.pnl.gov>
> Subject: pH of Celis White?
>
> Can (has) someone measure(d) the pH of Celis White? Please quote accuracy of
> the technique (i.e. +/- 0.2) if available. TIA. Kyle
I believe the result was 4.1, within .1
Jim Busch
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 10:02:29 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #248 (January 05, 1994)
This comment is a propos of not much, but
Jeff Frane commented:
>find no evidence of that anywhere. In fact, the only evidence I can
>find is to the contrary: beet sugar (which is what they grow in Belgium)
>must be entirely refined or the left-over flavors are *offensive*.
I've been by beet sugar refineries in both Belgium and East Anglia, and
I can testify from personal experience that "offensive" is a mild
description for the smells that get vented off. Of course, this could
be due to solvents, etc., but YECH!
I don't if any of you care about this stuff, but watching the beet
harvest in Hainaut and also the factory at work nearby was somehthing
else. Special tractors are used to create vast pyramids of beets by
the roadside, which are later collected in open trucks. The trucks
proceed directly to the factory and line up. When they reach the head
of the line a robot slams a sampling device into the back of the truck,
and this device munches a few beets. In doing so it determines the
sugar content and also the dirt content. These factors are calculated
with the tare and gross weight of the truck, and that's how the farmer
gets paid (i.e. on the total sugar quantity, less the weight of the dirt).
This activity creates mud everywhere on the roads in this area.
And for those of you who haven't seen a sugar beet, they look like
super humongous parsnips, and are a kind of yellowish white. They're
about 6"-8" inches in diameter, though I'm sure some of those suckers
can approach the size and weight of a bowling ball.
There you have it--more than you ever wanted to know. I'll be happy to
answer "Dr. Sugar Beet" questions as soon as I get back from Belgium
again (I'm leaving this afternoon). In my inimatably verbose style
I'll report on anything that seems worthy after I return.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 10:02:29 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #248 (January 05, 1994)
This comment is a propos of not much, but
Jeff Frane commented:
>find no evidence of that anywhere. In fact, the only evidence I can
>find is to the contrary: beet sugar (which is what they grow in Belgium)
>must be entirely refined or the left-over flavors are *offensive*.
I've been by beet sugar refineries in both Belgium and East Anglia, and
I can testify from personal experience that "offensive" is a mild
description for the smells that get vented off. Of course, this could
be due to solvents, etc., but YECH!
I don't if any of you care about this stuff, but watching the beet
harvest in Hainaut and also the factory at work nearby was somehthing
else. Special tractors are used to create vast pyramids of beets by
the roadside, which are later collected in open trucks. The trucks
proceed directly to the factory and line up. When they reach the head
of the line a robot slams a sampling device into the back of the truck,
and this device munches a few beets. In doing so it determines the
sugar content and also the dirt content. These factors are calculated
with the tare and gross weight of the truck, and that's how the farmer
gets paid (i.e. on the total sugar quantity, less the weight of the dirt).
This activity creates mud everywhere on the roads in this area.
And for those of you who haven't seen a sugar beet, they look like
super humongous parsnips, and are a kind of yellowish white. They're
about 6"-8" inches in diameter, though I'm sure some of those suckers
can approach the size and weight of a bowling ball.
There you have it--more than you ever wanted to know. I'll be happy to
answer "Dr. Sugar Beet" questions as soon as I get back from Belgium
again (I'm leaving this afternoon). In my inimatably verbose style
I'll report on anything that seems worthy after I return.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 09:19:41 MST
From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: re: carmelizing sugar
Thanks for the response on sugar to carmelize. I do not know the
"carmelization" reaction.... but it would seem to me that the more
complex (disaccheride {sp?}) sucrose might be the way to go.
It is interesting to hear that the left-overs from beet sugar are
offensiove. We have had a beet industry here in CO, and the beets
themselves are quite tasty. However, I have never been around during
refining runs, and I have heard that that is extremely offensive
smelling.
aaron
P.S. On belgian judging... I have not been tracking names too much,
but somebody here DID state that the style sheets are GUIDELINES, and
judges are free to expand upon them if they know what is acceptable.
I do not remember Belgian style guidelines, but I do recall weizen.
It states that some banana is acceptable. Are we free to judge a beer highly
if banana dominates as it does in many excellent FRESH weizens???
Yes, I'm being nasty here. I said FRESH in CAPS. I have never been to
germany, but I hear that many of the highly reguarded weissbiers are
strongly banana. I KNOW that as weiss ages, the banana subsides,
leaving a sharp clovey beer as opposed to a smooth banana beer.
I prefer smooth banana beer. I think that the guidelines are warped
because judges are accustomed to STALE weizen from import, and are not
familiar with the product as it is intended to be consumed (fresh).
So.... I ask... are commercial belgians really a good way to train
judges palletes??? I could swear that the Chimay premiere (red) hand
carried from the monistary which I has was much MUCH fruiter and smoother
(less phenolic) than the stuff i but here? Do belgian travlers agree?
P.P.S. I hear there is a judging forum. Anybody know the request address?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 1994 12:28:25 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: candi sugar
>Sucrose, i.e., table sugar. When it's completely refined, there is no
>difference between sugar derived from cane and that derived from beets.
>Michael Jackson (and, I think, Rajotte) claim that Belgian candi sugar
>retains residuals that affect the flavor/character of the beer, but I
>find no evidence of that anywhere. In fact, the only evidence I can
>find is to the contrary: beet sugar (which is what they grow in Belgium)
>must be entirely refined or the left-over flavors are *offensive*.
>
>Without my notes, I'm not positive, but I think you might also do well
>caramelizing invert sugar.
>
>- --Jeff
I believe it is not residuals from the refining, but residuals from
the process of making candi sugar from refined sugar. Candi sugar is
recrystallaized, and has undergone some boiling and thus some
caramelization. Someone, or a few someones has/have posted a method of
producing invert sugar at home by boiling a thick sugar/water solution with
a small quantity of citric (or was it ascorbic?) acid. This will split the
sucrose into it's components glucose and fructose, and the boiling process
can produce some caramelization. Check the HBD archives, somewhere around
late summer or fall, for the exact recipe. If memory serves, there was a
recipe posted followed by a correction a day or two later.
____________
Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. |
Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________|
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 08:50:44 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM
Subject: Chimay Magnum
All of this talk reminded me...
A few weeks ago I scored a _magnum_ of Chimay Grand Reserve (gold) for $15
at the Warehouse in Port Costa, CA. (for those in CA its about 1/2 hour north
of Berkeley on 880 -- a few miles east of Crocket; just before the bridge
over the straights to Vallejo) They didn't have any problems with leaving
it sealed [the Warehouse is a very odd biker bar] so I could carry out & take
it home.
Now to find an occasion when I would actually drink a magnum of Chimay.
(no, all of you visiting me isn't one I'd consider)
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 17:04:36 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Rajotte and the importance of ingredients
Todd Gierman wrote:
"Yes, yes... I do think that Grimbergen Triple and Duvel share some
indescribable aroma/flavor feature.
So, my question is this: what is the likelihood of these two beers sharing
the same yeast culture at some point in their processing (i.e. primary or
secondary or bottle fermentations)? Maes boasts that Grimbergen Triple is
bottle fermented, but there seems to be nothing revivable in the bottle.
Anybody want to try to give a grist breakdown for Duvel (does it involve
wheat?)?"
According to Jackson, Duvel is 100% pilsener malt and historically required
quite a bit of yeast isolation work in order to attain the necessary refined
aroma. Pardon me if I come on like something of a philistine, but the most
common descriptor associated with Duvel is 'beguiling', ie, it is an ale that
fools non-connoiseurs into believing that it is a lager, and it is strong yet
smooth. These characteristics are generally shared by many Belgian triples,
some specials (Duvel, Delerium Tremens), and some Bieres de Garde (Trois
Monts). We had some chat a while back about 'esters' being the defining feature
of triples, but it seems to me that this ignores the effects of high gravity
brewing. In comparison to a strong old ale or weaker barley wine, many of these
triples actually lack blatant fruitiness. Instead, we admire their subtle
vanilla, citric, etc, aromas. I find another common denominator is a certain
DMS sweetness, from the lager malt. Whereas abbey beers and some doubles
feature typically Belgian wild-yeast phenols, it seems to me that triples and
their ilk must result from strains which are more pure and more highly
selected, which increases the probability of brewers employing common yeast
banks. This also probably means that we are transgressing lambic-digest
etiquette by discussing these brews here, except that this list has more
concentrated yeast culturing expertise than a brewers' picnic! For the record,
my last British imports of both Duvel and Bruggse Triple, although sedimented,
also had nothing revivable.
"So, my question is this:
Is there something about the Belgian malts that affects head retention?
They do seem to produce a somewhat oily wort. Does it have more to do with
their protein content?"
Due to a lack of access to aromatic malts, I occasionally make an old ale which
features around 3 lbs of British crystal. This has no head retention worth
talking about until 3 months in the bottle. I too have noticed the oily nature
of this wort.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 17:15:25 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Special B
A while back, Jeff Frane wrote:
>I don't know that "sweetness" is the exact word I would use to describe
>the contribution of Special B. Dave Logsdon refers to it as "raisiny",
>and I think this is closer to the truth. John Harris used it in his
>Doppelbock at the Full Sail Brewery at the River (brewpub) and produced
>one of the most authentic versions I've tasted. There is definitely a
>note contributed by the Special B that is lacking from most caramel
>malts, almost a sharp edge.
How about Gouden Carolus as a commercial prototype? Jackson describes it as
having a 'fig' character, and I was almost ready to attempt a clone by
culturing some of the yeast and using 1-2 lbs of raisins in the wort; sort of a
beer/wine crossover.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 17:26:53 BD3
From: BRFUEL Mail Server <BITNET%BRFUEL.BITNET at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Unread mail/note. Please DO NOT REPLY.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% >>> PLEASE READ THIS <<< %%
%% This mail is being sent to you by the BITNET at BRFUEL.BITNET. %%
%% This is an automatic answer. So, DO NOT REPLY to this mail. %%
%% Thank you. %%
%%--------------------------------------------------------------------%%
%% * DEVMAILS, Release 1.3, 1993. %%
%% Written by Julio Cesar Wunderlich (JCWUNDER at BRFUEM.BITNET). %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
The BRFUEL system is returning your mail/note below to you because of
the user LUCIO have not read the message in last 7 days.
- ------
BRFUEL Mail Server
e-mail = BITNET at BRFUEL
- ------
- -----------------RETURNED MAIL/NOTE FILE------------------
Received: from CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU by BRFUEL.BITNET (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with
BSMTP id 0824; Tue, 28 Dec 93 05:40:48 BD3
Received: from CUNYVM (NJE origin SMTP at CUNYVM) by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (LMail
V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6615; Tue, 28 Dec 1993 02:32:14 -0500
Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
with TCP; Tue, 28 Dec 93 02:32:12 EST
Received: from localhost (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu
(8.6.4/8.6.4) id AAA14083 for reallambic; Tue, 28 Dec 1993 00:30:05 -0700
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 00:30:05 -0700
Message-Id: <199312280730.AAA14083 at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
From: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (Are you SURE you want to send it
HERE?)
Reply-to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (CHANGE THIS IF NECESSARY)
Errors-to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #241 (December 28, 1993)
Apparently-To: reallambic
Lambic Digest #241 Tue 28 December 1993
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Wheat in White Beer/Esters in Triple ("Bill Kitch")
Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to:
lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to:
netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 11:19:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Wheat in White Beer/Esters in Triple
re: white
In the white beer thread that we had going a couple of months ago there
was some discussion of what sort of wheat to use, low gluten soft white or
high gluten red wheat (durham?). As I recall the agruments for/against were
something like:
Soft white--The type of wheat traditionally grown in Europe. Probably
what would have been (is being?) used. More difficult to
find in U.S. Lower protein content of the two.
Hard red -- of U.S. origin. Higher protien content of the two. Easy to
find. What Celis professes to use.
I dilligently searched out soft white wheat following the
historical/traditional line of thought. One of the many things wrong w/my
white was no protien haze! 45% raw wheat and no haze! Anyway I'm
reconsidering the type of wheat and was wondering what others have used
and with what results? Todd?
*******
re: esters in triple
Scott B. asked about appropriateness of esters in triple after I mentioned
the "high esters" in a triple I brewed. In my *opinion* the triple style is
the cleanest of all the Belgian ales. When I typed "high ester levels" I
meant high wrt beer in general. Certainly within the Belgian styles, the
triple has a moderate ester level--nothing like some of the dark abbey ales
(e.g. Corsendonk brown). The light color and relatively light body (for a
high gravity beer) of the triple call for (I believe) moderation in esters,
fruityness, and any spicing added, otherwise the balance is off. Of course
these are just my opinions. As to whether or not I've got a good triple
recipe, I await the comments of Phil Seitz and Jim Busch.
Bonne Annee, WAK
- ------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
- -------
'Are you SURE you wa BITNET at BRFUEL.BITNE 12/28/93 Lambic Digest #241 (December 2
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 17:47:16 BD3
From: BRFUEL Mail Server <BITNET%BRFUEL.BITNET at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Unread mail/note. Please DO NOT REPLY.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% >>> PLEASE READ THIS <<< %%
%% This mail is being sent to you by the BITNET at BRFUEL.BITNET. %%
%% This is an automatic answer. So, DO NOT REPLY to this mail. %%
%% Thank you. %%
%%--------------------------------------------------------------------%%
%% * DEVMAILS, Release 1.3, 1993. %%
%% Written by Julio Cesar Wunderlich (JCWUNDER at BRFUEM.BITNET). %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
The BRFUEL system is returning your mail/note below to you because of
the user LUCIO have not read the message in last 7 days.
- ------
BRFUEL Mail Server
e-mail = BITNET at BRFUEL
- ------
- -----------------RETURNED MAIL/NOTE FILE------------------
Received: from CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU by BRFUEL.BITNET (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with
BSMTP id 4346; Sun, 26 Dec 93 05:32:12 BD3
Received: from CUNYVM (NJE origin SMTP at CUNYVM) by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (LMail
V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 1812; Sun, 26 Dec 1993 02:31:59 -0500
Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
with TCP; Sun, 26 Dec 93 02:31:58 EST
Received: from localhost (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu
(8.6.4/8.6.4) id AAA08457 for reallambic; Sun, 26 Dec 1993 00:30:05 -0700
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1993 00:30:05 -0700
Message-Id: <199312260730.AAA08457 at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
From: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (Are you SURE you want to send it
HERE?)
Reply-to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (CHANGE THIS IF NECESSARY)
Errors-to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #240 (December 26, 1993)
Apparently-To: reallambic
Lambic Digest #240 Sun 26 December 1993
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Various ("Phillip R. Seitz")
Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to:
lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to:
netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 93 16:09:16 -0400
From: "Phillip R. Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Various
1) White beer
I've had the pleasure of tasting Todd Ender's most recent white
beer, and I can say with no shame or hesitation that it was really
top-notch. I will definitely be trying to brew some more in the
not-too-distant future, and will be working from his recipe.
2) Triples
Fruitiness, no, but other esters maybe--particularly the
spicier ones. I'd even through some unusual phenols in. And as I
recall, Leffe Triple is quite agressively hopped, although this isn't
the general rule. I think that yeast selection is the critical factor,
and I've found that even some well informed judges (ahem!) seem to
mistake yeast aromas for hoppy ones.
3) Current projects
I'm still enamored of strong Belgian ales, and particularly
with the ones from the Binchoise and Achouffe breweries. Fortunately
the Chouffe yeast is a star perfomer, and is available from the Yeast
Culture Kit Company (strain A36) or from me I suppose (assuming you
provide a slant and return envelope). In any case, the last attempt in
this style took 3rd in the HOPS/BOPS (though I'll have to have a TALK
with BILL RIDGELY), and I'm hoping the next batch will be THE ONE.
Tentative recipe includes 1 lb caravienne with Belgian Pils malt to
1.080 and 15 IBU styrian goldings, plus 15 gr. whole coriander and the
same amount of sweet orange. Ferment at 62F.
- ------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
- -------
'Are you SURE you wa BITNET at BRFUEL.BITNE 12/26/93 Lambic Digest #240 (December 2
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 07:25:06 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Duvel grist
Michael Jackson has changed his tune on Duvel, incidentally -- and about
time. His earlier books always claimed it was an all-malt beer, but in
the Beer Companion he mentions -- oh, by the way -- that they jack the
OG up 20 points or so "before fermentation" with dextrose!
I split a 750 ml bottle last night with my wife, and it's obvious that
this is really how the beer is made -- it's way too dry for the gravity
for an all-malt beer, IMHO.
Jackson also says that they are using two yeast strains, narrowed down
from multiple strains -- which DeClerck cultured from a
bottle-conditioned McEwan's beer. !! So much for "Belgian" ale yeast,
eh? Supposedly, the beer is fermented in separate batches (each with a
single strain) and then blended.
Jackson also sez they use Saaz and a Styrian Golding for hopping.
But do the Belgians give him the straight?
- --Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 09:59:57 -0600
From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss)
Subject: AHA natnls / Chimay
malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl) writes
>In Lambic Digest #247, Steve Stroud said:
>> I was on that final round panel at the Nationals and I'd say that the panel had
>> significantly more than 'one intelligent judge.' I can't name all of the
>> judges (Martin, can you help me out here?), but they included Martin Lodahl,
>> Paddy Giffen, and, ummm, well, me. The other judges, whose names I
>>> can't recall at the moment, also appeared to be well versed in the ways of
>> Belgian beer.
>Gosh, you caught me flat-footed. One additional name that comes
>to mind is Charlie Olchowski, who had returned from Belgium only
>days before. And then I think there was Michael Byers, a very
>experienced judge of the Belgian styles, but I could be wrong
>about that. And there was at least one more. Caramba!
>From the score sheets:
Charlie Olckowski, Martin Lodahl, Paddy Giffen, Michael Byers, Steve Stroud.
>> What _was_ aggrevating about the final round was not the quality of judges, it
>> was the number of judges. We had six (?) on our panel. With one bottle to
>It was quite a crowd. The fact that there was a small coterie of
>stewards lurking in case of any remaining dregs didn't help, either.
>> taste from it was absolutely impossible to have enough beer left to discuss the
>> ranking of the entries other than from memory.
All in all, the comments were pretty much right on track.
The top of the bottle of the beer I entered was totally different
from the bottom (I had added quite a bit of extra yeast for
chimay-like dregs). It was pretty obvious which judges got
the top of the bottle ("body a little thin") and which got
the bottom ("big, chewey, complex"). Having fewer judges
would avoid this problem.
- ------------------------
msharp at Synopsys.COM writes:
>Now to find an occasion when I would actually drink a magnum of Chimay.
>(no, all of you visiting me isn't one I'd consider)
A magnum is 2 fifths?
A few months back we went to a bar in downtown Dallas (forget the name).
I was in a mood for guinness draught, and the wanted $5.50 a pint for it!
Almost twice as expensive as the nearest competitor. 27 oz bottles of
chimay red were also $5.50 (cheaper than the liquor store). I asked
the waitress who thought up their hair-brained pricing scheme, and
proceeded to quaff 5 bottles of chimay that night. worst hangover
I've ever had.
On another note, we can now get 12 bottles of chimay blue here.
bb
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 15:17:48 -0500
From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: what is carmelization?
Aaron writes:
> Thanks for the response on sugar to carmelize. I do not know the
>"carmelization" reaction.... but it would seem to me that the more
>complex (disaccheride {sp?}) sucrose might be the way to go.
Okay, food scientists/organic chemists, what does carmelized (candi)sugar
contribute to your Belgian ales that raw or uncarmelized sugar does not?
I seem to think, for one reason or another, that carmelization is
essentially the process of heat induced polymer formation. So, let's say
that your 'mer' is glucose. When carmelized, you end up with erratically
formed chains of glucose. Is this correct? Then it would be these
polymers that produce color, right? So, does the addition of carmelized
sugar also introduce unfermentables into the wort? And would these
unfermentables produce residual sweetness, in addition to a "carmelized"
flavor?
I seem to remember a demonstration in high school chemistry where polymers
were created using beet sugar and sulfuric acid. When the acid was added
to a beaker of sucrose, it erupted to produce a blackened, elongated mass
of polymerized sugar. Is this essentially similar to carmelization?
I suppose this issue may have been addressed previously, but I was just
wondering.
Here's the procedure for invert sugar from HBD #1275:
>Invert sugar can be made by adding four pounds of cane/beet (white)
>sugar to two pints of water and 2 teaspoons of citric acid. Heat
>until it comes to a boil. Watch it, the boilover of this stuff makes
>a wort boilover look like nothing. Continue with a low boil for one
>hour. Allow to cool, dilute to one gallon.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: 7 Jan 1994 09:47:08 -0500
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel_F_McConnell at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu>
Subject: Millions die in brewery exp
Subject: Millions die in brewery explosion!
Here's the story. I brewed a 15 gallon batch of pLambik last
November and fermented it for 5 days in a 15 gal HDPE fermenter.
9 gal was racked to a 10 gal oak barrel and the remaining 6 was left
in the HDPE to which I added peaches and raspberries. The next week
I made another 10 gal of pLambik and used it to top up both the
barrel and the HDPE fermenter. The following night I went down in the
basement to check the ferment and was surprised to see the beer
flowing out of the barrel through the airlock and onto the floor
(sort of like the photographs in the books). I was on my knees
cleaning up and then looked up at the HDPE and was shocked to see
that it was SWOLLEN LIKE A BASKETBALL! Oh, think fast! 15 gallons
of beer under pressure is not something to fool with. I touched the
airlock to slowly release pressure, but as soon as I touched it, it
shot off and ricocheted off the ceiling, spraying beer everywhere.
The initial explosion was followed by 4-6 inch fountain and then a
slow ooze for about 12 hours until everything was again under
control (and cleaned). There were millions of yeasts and bacteria
dead and dying, drying on the rafters and blocks of the basement.
I am still haunted by their screams.
The only REAL problem is that this beer had been pitched before the
explosion with Pediococcus, Brettanomyces and various other bugs
cultured from a bottle of Boon Gueuse. Now my basement fermentation
area is probably heavily contaminated (inoculated?). Would I EVER
brew a normal beer again???
I waited to post this until I had brewed again. This time a pale
ale. I tapped the keg a day or so ago and it is absolutely
clean with no signs of PC or BL contamination. Still a little
early to tell, but I think there will be no problems.
DanMcC
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:46:30 -0800
From: paul at rational.com (Paul Jasper)
Subject: Re: Duvel grist
On 6 Jan, 7:25, Jeff Frane wrote:
> Subject: Duvel grist
>
> Michael Jackson has changed his tune on Duvel, incidentally -- and about
> time. His earlier books always claimed it was an all-malt beer, but in
> the Beer Companion he mentions -- oh, by the way -- that they jack the
> OG up 20 points or so "before fermentation" with dextrose!
What exactly does he say? My copy of the Beer Companion is at home.
Roger Protz ("The European Beer Almanac", 1991) says:
'ABV 8.5%; degrees Plato 17.5; OG 1070
"Ingredients Pale malt, brewing sugar for bottle fermentation. Saaz and
Styrian hops. 30 units of bitterness. Top fermenting yeast."
> [...]
>
> But do the Belgians give him the straight?
Or Protz either?
>-- End of excerpt from Jeff Frane
- --
- -- Paul Jasper
- -- RATIONAL Software Corporation
- -- Design Support Tools
- --
------------------------------
Date: 08 Jan 1994 12:18:12 PST
From: "Postmaster" <MAILOP at PALOALTO.EPRI.COM>
Subject: DISTRIBUTION STATUS
SOFT-SWITCH
SMTP.LAMBIC DISTRIBUTION STATUS INFORMATION 01/08/94 12:18:0
=======================================================================
DISTRIBUTION ID: SMTP.LAMBIC.8555
SUBJECT : Lambic Digest #251 (January 08, 1994)
DATE SENT : 01/08/94 TIME SENT: 08:11:00
=======================================================================
YOUR MAIL WAS NOT DELIVERED FOR THE FOLLOWING REASON:
SNADS STATUS : 0501
EXPLANATION : CANCELED
=======================================================================
RECIPIENT : CHARLOTT.KBARRY
LAST NAME : BARRY
FIRST NAME : KEN
MIDDLE INITIAL :
NATIVE NAME :
COUNTRY : US
ADMD : MCI
PRMD : EPRIX400
ORGANIZATION : EPRI
ORG UNIT 1 :
ORG UNIT 2 :
ORG UNIT 3 :
ORG UNIT 4 :
DDA :
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 8:26:20 EST
From: Dick Herring <rdh1 at ctt.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: digest listserve failed on 1/8
What happened?
I do read and enjoy the digest.
Thanks,
Dick Herring
rdh1 at ctt.bellcore.com
>
>
>
> Lambic Digest #252 Sun 09 January 1994
>
>
> Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
> Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
>
>
> Contents:
> DISTRIBUTION STATUS ("Postmaster")
>
>
> Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
> Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to:
> lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
> Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to:
> netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: 08 Jan 1994 12:18:12 PST
> From: "Postmaster" <MAILOP at PALOALTO.EPRI.COM>
> Subject: DISTRIBUTION STATUS
>
> SOFT-SWITCH
> SMTP.LAMBIC DISTRIBUTION STATUS INFORMATION 01/08/94 12:18:0
>
> =======================================================================
>
> DISTRIBUTION ID: SMTP.LAMBIC.8555
> SUBJECT : Lambic Digest #251 (January 08, 1994)
> DATE SENT : 01/08/94 TIME SENT: 08:11:00
> =======================================================================
>
> YOUR MAIL WAS NOT DELIVERED FOR THE FOLLOWING REASON:
>
> SNADS STATUS : 0501
> EXPLANATION : CANCELED
>
> =======================================================================
>
> RECIPIENT : CHARLOTT.KBARRY
> LAST NAME : BARRY
> FIRST NAME : KEN
> MIDDLE INITIAL :
> NATIVE NAME :
> COUNTRY : US
> ADMD : MCI
> PRMD : EPRIX400
> ORGANIZATION : EPRI
> ORG UNIT 1 :
> ORG UNIT 2 :
> ORG UNIT 3 :
> ORG UNIT 4 :
> DDA :
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> End of Lambic Digest
> ************************
> -------
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 11:28:54 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Optimum temperatures
I finally got around to drawing out a sample of the pKriek I have
going. The apparent gravity is down to 1.009, down from an O.G.
of 1.052 and there is a nice level of Brett. flavor with some sourness
in the finish. It almost tasted good enough to make me go back for
more ;-)
My question is this: what is the optimum conditioning temperature for
a lambic? I can go all the way from 50 F in my basement all the way to
75 F in areas near heating vents. I know what temperatures work
for my ale yeast, but what about the Pediococcus and Brettanamyces?
Thanks,
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 16:01:30 EST
From: Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name <mstickle at lvh.com>
Subject: First Attempt at a pLambic
In the next week or so I'm going to make my first attempt at a pLambic
and wanted to run my game plan by the collective wisdom of the digest.
I've made "Belgian-Style Fruit Beers (ales)" in the past and have never
been too impressed with them. I've read the Lambic FAQ and Guinard's
book and even visted Belgium once (had the lambic at Cafe Bacouse (sp?) in
Brussells. Enough bragging :>) here's the plan:
Make 15 gals of base pLambic using 60% American 2-Row Malted Barley and
and 40% UNMALTED wheat. I assume it will be hard, red winter wheat (I'll
be getting it from a local feed store. Is Belgian Malt worth it and/or
necessary for pLambic? Is hard, red winter wheat a mistake?
The hops will be clusters pellets which are a year old. Should I use
12ozs for 15 gals. I will be baking them in a 300 degree oven for 1 hour.
Their AA is 7.0%. Is this too much if its been baked?
I'll have to use three glass carboys - two 7.5 gals and one 6.5 gals.
Do oak chips make sense?
I'm planning on using Belgian Ale Yeast (Wyeast # 1214). Does this have
too much "character"? Should I instead use a "blander" Saccaromyces
Cerevisiae? If so which one?
Where do I get the Brettanomyces Lambicus (and/or Bruxellenis) and
Pediococcus Damnosus? From a bottle of Boon or is there a commercial
source these days?
When should I add them? S. Cerevisiae at beginning of primary fermentation,
Brett after one month and Pedio after two months?
I plan on keeping them in the carboys in my basement (where my furnace is)
at about 65 degrees from February 1st until mid-summer. At that time I
will add sour cherries (probably 10lbs) to one, raspberries (probably
5lbs) and peaches (probably 10lbs) to each. All fresh fruit. Then I figured
let it sit until spring (15 months total).
Anything I'm missing? I would greatly appreciate input on any or all of
the questions I've raised either directly or via the digest. TIA.
------------------------------
Date: 11 Jan 1994 19:04:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Delano Dugarm 36478 <ADUGARM at worldbank.org>
Subject: Brett. and porter ~#
I know that this is not a lambic question, but it does concern
another sour beer, and contributers here now more about Brettanomyces
handling than anyone else.
Has anyone tried an "old-style" porter or stock ale, with
Brettanomyces added? The article on porters in Brewing Techniques
last year got me thinking about this, but I have not come accross
anyone who has actually tried. In a case like this, how much Brett
should be added, when (I imagine in the secondary), how long should it
be left to develop?
What do people think of WYeast's Brett. culture? It's the
variety most easily available to me.
Delano DuGarm
adugarm at worldbank.org
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 13:23 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: First attempt
Mark writes:
>Make 15 gals of base pLambic using 60% American 2-Row Malted Barley and
>and 40% UNMALTED wheat. I assume it will be hard, red winter wheat (I'll
>be getting it from a local feed store. Is Belgian Malt worth it and/or
>necessary for pLambic? Is hard, red winter wheat a mistake?
Seed grains are much better than feed grains since they have much less
weed seeds and are more uniform.
>The hops will be clusters pellets which are a year old. Should I use
>12ozs for 15 gals. I will be baking them in a 300 degree oven for 1 hour.
>Their AA is 7.0%. Is this too much if its been baked?
Clusters are probably a bad choice, considering that they have some of
the very best storagability and IMHO have a rather irritating back-of-the-
throat character (which aging may not remove). I suggest whole hops and
then something like Hallertauer, N. Brewer, Hersbrucker, Mt. Hood, Liberty
-- hops with more moderate character -- i.e. I would advise against the
hops with assertive characteristics: Cascade, Goldings, etc.
>I'll have to use three glass carboys - two 7.5 gals and one 6.5 gals.
>Do oak chips make sense?
Oak chips may be nice to get an oaky character, but the oak casks add a
lot more than just oak flavor/aroma -- they breathe and let O2 in to the
fementing and aging brew. This seems to change the way that the Brett
and Pedio act. I used a 20 gallon HDPE Brute for primary fermentation
for this reason. It seems to have worked well. The Brett could be
stronger, but I used B. Lambicus and Mike has reported that B. Brux has
more "Brett" character.
>I'm planning on using Belgian Ale Yeast (Wyeast # 1214). Does this have
>too much "character"? Should I instead use a "blander" Saccaromyces
>Cerevisiae? If so which one?
I recommend blander. The 1214 has a spicy character which may not be
appropriate for a pLambiek. I used SNPA yeast, which is Wyeast #1056.
>Where do I get the Brettanomyces Lambicus (and/or Bruxellenis) and
>Pediococcus Damnosus? From a bottle of Boon or is there a commercial
>source these days?
Wyeast has a Brettanomyces Bruxellensis. G.W. Kent distributes a
Pediococcus Cerevisiae, which I've had success with.
>When should I add them? S. Cerevisiae at beginning of primary fermentation,
>Brett after one month and Pedio after two months?
I suggest either adding them all together or (what I'm contemplating) adding
the Brett and the Pedio a few days ahead of the Saccharomyces, but this
could cause trouble with unwanted visitors.
>I plan on keeping them in the carboys in my basement (where my furnace is)
>at about 65 degrees from February 1st until mid-summer. At that time I
>will add sour cherries (probably 10lbs) to one, raspberries (probably
>5lbs) and peaches (probably 10lbs) to each. All fresh fruit. Then I figured
>let it sit until spring (15 months total).
I think your amounts are good. I suggest you freeze and blanch the fruit
to sanitize the outsides and then mush them very slightly as they go into
the fermenter. Make sure to use a 1'' ID blowoff tube after you add fruit!!!
Oh yes... don't expect much Brett or Pedio character in the flavor or aroma
till at least six months after pitching.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 08:44:39 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: huh?
Al writes:
> The Brett could be
> stronger, but I used B. Lambicus and Mike has reported that B. Brux has
> more "Brett" character.
Huh?
I think there might be some context missing here. Perhaps something
like "I've got two new strains from <XYZ> and it seems that [with these
two strains]..."
I wouldn't claim this for all strains of B. bruxellensis vs. all strains
of B. lambicus.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:42:39 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Re: Brett. and porter
Delano Dugarm writes:
> I know that this is not a lambic question, but it does concern
>another sour beer, and contributers here now more about Brettanomyces
>handling than anyone else.
> Has anyone tried an "old-style" porter or stock ale, with
>Brettanomyces added? The article on porters in Brewing Techniques
>last year got me thinking about this, but I have not come accross
>anyone who has actually tried. In a case like this, how much Brett
>should be added, when (I imagine in the secondary), how long should it
>be left to develop?
> What do people think of WYeast's Brett. culture? It's the
>variety most easily available to me.
The Bar Harbour brewery has had chronic infection problems with
their beers. The pale ale I had was phenolic and kind of nasty. Their
Cole Porter (*insert Mork from Ork "Ar Ar" sounds here*) on the other hand
was infected with something else. The people who had purchased it were
very appologetic. No need. I was completely intrigued. It still had a
dryish porter character, clean and roasty, but with a tight, clean lactic
sourness. It was wonderful. If only I had had the foresight to bring my
culture kit with me that evening I might have found the perfect bug for
making flanders brown... That is how I would picture a classic historic
porter.
To answer your question, if you have ready access to Wyeast Brett,
go for it. If you can get the Yeast Lab Brett, it is a little less horsey
(lambicus vs bruxellensis), but the roastiness of the porter should help
prevent that from coming too much to the fore. You can pitch the brett
with the Saccharomyces, and give the Brett some wood to live in (a few
hunks of hardwood in a bucket, or a few dowells if you brew in a carboy).
If you are really worried about the S. cerevisiae killing off the Brett,
then picth a little extra after it's fermented out. Age it several months.
Let me know how it turns out.
____________
Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. |
Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________|
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 08:42:54 PDT
From: Gary Rich <garyrich at qdeck.com>
Subject: Lambic Digest #254 (January 12, 1994)
Delano Dugarm <ADUGARM at worldbank.org> queried:
Subject: Brett. and porter ~#
I know that this is not a lambic question, but it does concern another sour
beer, and contributers here now more about Brettanomyces handling than anyone
else. Has anyone tried an "old-style" porter or stock ale, with Brettanomyces
added? The article on porters in Brewing Techniques last year got me thinking
about this, but I have not come accross anyone who has actually tried. In a
case like this, how much Brett should be added, when (I imagine in the
secondary), how long should it be left to develop? What do people think of
WYeast's Brett. culture? It's the variety most easily available to me.
- ------
{
I've got a test batch of "Stock Ale" going right now. I made a 4 gallon batch
of 1.055 pale ale and split it into 4 one gallon batches. one has already been
bottled as the "running" beer. The other three are in one gallon secondaries
with a few tablespoons of french oak chips (boiled 20 minutes to sterilize and
remove most of the tannins) and one of my three brett cultures:
1) A commercial "lambicus" that seems (from its taxonomy) not to be really
brett, but we'll see how the beer comes out.
2) A pure culture from a F. Boon bottle that behaves like bruxelensis.
3) Another Boon culture that behaves like B. anomalus.
I grew up the bretts in a mix of DME, yeast extract and calcium carbonate
(the buffer the ph). Pitched about 50ml of starter per 1 gallon batch. So
far it's been only 1 month in the secondary. Oddly, all three have a small
amount of bubbles rising in them, but I've yet to see an airlock go "glub".
Last time I sniffed them none had really developed a brett nose, but they are
about due for another sniff. I assume that I'm going to leave them for ~4
months before bottling. The goal of all this is to find the best candidate
for my higher gravity stock porter, but I thought a pale ale was a better way
to go for the test. Less other flavors to compete.
The designations given the 3 bretts are fallout from the
_Great_Brett_Controversy_of_'93_ that so many of us were involved in. #2 and
#3 are so designated by refering to:
Campbell, I. 1971. Numerical Taxonomy of Various Genera of Yeasts. J. of
General Microbilogy. 67:223-231.
(thanks Todd)
}
-Gary R.-
garyrich at qdeck.com
------------------------------
Date: 12 Jan 1994 16:50:49 -0800
From: "Dave Suurballe" <suurb at farallon.com>
Subject: Competitions
I've been busy and could't respond to this when it would have been
appropriate, and now that I've got some time, I can't remember who
it should go to.
Some time ago somebody complained about lousy judging at the
California State Homebrew Competition. Some kind of Belgian beer
he had entered in the Strong Ale category failed in the Preliminary
Round. There are a few things I'd like to say about this.
1. Most competition entrants think they're going to win, and when
they don't, they blame the competition organizers, the judges, etc.
2. Good beers sometimes don't win. I don't know why. Maybe there's
too many good beers. Maybe it depends on the order they're tasted in.
Maybe it depends on how many beers the judges have to judge. Maybe
it just depends on the tastes of the judges.
3. People who brew styles that are not well known or which are just
becoming known to the beer-judging category should not be surprised or
indignant if the judges are less expert than they. It is unfortunate
that this can happen, but what do you expect when you are operating at
a frontier? In ten years the country will be filled with expert
Belgian beer judges. Enter your beer then.
I'm very cynical about competitions, and I say if you don't like them,
don't waste your time, money, beer, emotion, etc entering them.
Lastly, if you think you can judge better than last year's judges,
then you should be one of next year's judges. The California State
Homebrew Competition is always looking for good judges. I know; I'm
one of the organizers. One of the judges, too. In fact, I judged
your beer last year. I don't remember it, of course, but I do
remember that as a whole, the Belgians were pretty hoppy. I think
there were about a half-dozen of them, and only one made it to the
Final Round.
Dave Suurballe
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 11:28:59 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: A bit of this, a bit of that...
Mike replies to Al:
>I think there might be some context missing here. Perhaps something
>like "I've got two new strains from <XYZ> and it seems that [with these
>two strains]..."
>I wouldn't claim this for all strains of B. bruxellensis vs. all strains
>of B. lambicus.
>
> --Mike
There are two short quotes which may have led to this (mis-)
conception: Mike Sharp on reporting the new Wyeast releases: "Good news,
it's bruxellensis!" and from the Lambic FAQ/Dartboard: "B. bruxellensis
has more 'horsey' character". These comments, intentionally or not, leave
one with the impression that bruxellensis is more desirable, just as
reading Guinard's book leaves one with the impression that lambicus is
better. Ideally you want both anyway, and it boils down to personal
preferance.
Dave Suurballe writes:
>Some time ago somebody complained about lousy judging at the
>California State Homebrew Competition. Some kind of Belgian beer
>he had entered in the Strong Ale category failed in the Preliminary
>Round. There are a few things I'd like to say about this.
>
>1. Most competition entrants think they're going to win, and when
>they don't, they blame the competition organizers, the judges, etc.
>
>2. Good beers sometimes don't win. I don't know why. Maybe there's
>too many good beers. Maybe it depends on the order they're tasted in.
>Maybe it depends on how many beers the judges have to judge. Maybe
>it just depends on the tastes of the judges.
>
>3. People who brew styles that are not well known or which are just
>becoming known to the beer-judging category should not be surprised or
>indignant if the judges are less expert than they. It is unfortunate
>that this can happen, but what do you expect when you are operating at
>a frontier? In ten years the country will be filled with expert
>Belgian beer judges. Enter your beer then.
>
>I'm very cynical about competitions, and I say if you don't like them,
>don't waste your time, money, beer, emotion, etc entering them.
>
>Lastly, if you think you can judge better than last year's judges,
>then you should be one of next year's judges. The California State
>Homebrew Competition is always looking for good judges. I know; I'm
>one of the organizers. One of the judges, too. In fact, I judged
>your beer last year. I don't remember it, of course, but I do
>remember that as a whole, the Belgians were pretty hoppy. I think
>there were about a half-dozen of them, and only one made it to the
>Final Round.
An organizer and judge who's cynical about competitions? Hmm.
I got the impression that the concerns of belgian-style brewers
were not that they didn't win. They were that their beers were ousted in
the preliminaries for having the very characteristics that define belgian
beers. The concerns were raised not to flame judges, but to promote
discussion on how this sort of problem can be reduced in the future. The
discussion was picked up on the JudgeNet Digest, and much useful dialogue
ensued. This was not a case of sour grapes. This was a case of How can we
improve things in order to reduce the incidence of this sort of thing in
future competitions, particularly large scale regional and national
competitions?
____________
Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. |
Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________|
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:20:33 -0600 (UTC -06:00)
From: ROWLEY at KU9000.CC.UKANS.EDU
Subject: unsubscribe
unsubscribe lambic digest
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 11:10 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Report on Wyeast Brett
No, I haven't used it yet, but the three packages of Wyeast Brettanomyces
Bruxellensis I have at the store are slowly getting puffier (they are
about four weeks old). This is good news, I'd say... in line with what I've
read about Brett habits. The packages are about 1/5" thick now, if you
spread the puffiness out across the whole package. I've been meaning to
brew with this yeast, but have been just too darn busy!
Al.
------------------------------Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 14:18:56 EST
From: Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name <mstickle at lvh.com>
Subject: Brett and Pedio Cultures
I have contacted five different homebrew retailers and none currently
carry Brett or Pedio cultures from G.W.Kent or Wyeast and they don't
seem to think they can get them. Does anyone know of a retail source
for these cultures. Let me know via the digest or privately at
mstickler at lvh.com. TIA.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:30:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: acetate/enteric bacteria
As I gear up for my first lambic I have a question for the net.wisdom.
I find Cantillon Lambics to be more acetic than lactic and I like this
characteristic. In the _Lambic_ book by (what's his name?), it says
that the first major organism to have its way with the wort is an
enteric bacterium that produces acetic acid. I have never seen a
reference to use of an enteric bacterium in a pLambic, and I don't
fancy the use of the one I know I have access to.
What about adding acetic acid to the wort after cooling? This way it
would be in there during all the subsequent fermentation, as it is
(according to the book) in the real thing.
Jeremy Bergsman
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 94 09:51:16 EST
From: John Eustace <3JCE1 at QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>
Subject: Brett and Pedio cultures
Hi all,
Just thought some of you would be interested in knowing that there is another
source for Brettanomyces and Pedioccus cultures. Brewtek, which is the part
of Brewer's resource run by Dr. Maribeth Raines, now sells these two cultures.
Has anybody used them yet? Any comments.
Hope this isn't old news.
Cheers
JE
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 11:55:30 -0600
From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss)
Subject: enteric bacteria
Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU> writes:
>I find Cantillon Lambics to be more acetic than lactic and I like this
>characteristic. In the _Lambic_ book by (what's his name?), it says
>that the first major organism to have its way with the wort is an
>enteric bacterium that produces acetic acid. I have never seen a
>reference to use of an enteric bacterium in a pLambic, and I don't
>fancy the use of the one I know I have access to.
Guinard says (somewhere in his book that I remember but can't find)
that bat guano (from bats which are able to fit through the tile
roof and perch over the cooling vat) is largely responsible for the
enteric bacteria introduced in some lambics. why not use the real thing?
bb
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 1994 09:43:22 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Wooden dowels?
In a posting last week, someone mentioned that oak chips or wooden
dowels should be used when fermenting a pLambic in a glass carboy.
Is this the usual practice, or can I get by without them?
Thanks,
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 94 17:40:01 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Sherry yeasts
A while back, we had some speculation that sherry flor microbes might be a good
way to introduce some controlled oxidation into the secondary, and thus imitate
brews such as Rodenbach. I've started playing with this idea, and could use
some information on the requirements of the microbe, in this case,
S. cervisiae (beticus). Is there anybody out there with handy access to a
reference manual?
For starters, I am presuming the bug is largely aerobic. I have tried using a
dried yeast in the _primary_, and it seemed to exhibit a long lag time, and
also spewed out various unpleasant phenols. Of course, I could simply have had
an infection. I didn't try to plate it out. Speaking of which, I have been
wondering about the wisdom of making up a plate which substitutes fermented
beer for the usual malt extract/water mix. I've proved that I can make a solid
plate; I'm just wondering whether there are any reasons not to expect something
to grow.
My major concern is whether this yeast insists on sherry-like conditions, ie,
wine-style acidity, high alcohol and, according to folklore, a high conc of
CaSO4.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 94 14:29:03 MST
From: pyeatt at CS.ColoState.EDU (Larry Pyeatt)
Subject: Adding a bit of culture.
I have a bottle of 1989 Boone Framboise. Are there any usable beasties
inside? How can I go about culturing them to make sure that I get a
good sample of all the critters?
On another topic, I have a slurry of Pedio from G.W. Kent. Can this
be cultured on a slant? Will plain agar work, or do I need some other
growth medium? Any advice on technique or materials would be appreciated.
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt at cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jan 1994 02:48:02 GMT
From: "Central Postmaster" <SSW.POSTMSTR at TSOD.lmig.com>
Subject: Mail Delivery Status
***** Error in Mail Delivery *****
ROUTING ERROR
Recipients:
MSMAIL.MGR_SSW1 at TSOD.LMIG.COM
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 09:20:14 EST
From: Jose Francisco Pereira Martins <AFRMART%BRUFSM.BITNET at VTBIT.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject: Pedio culturing
Larry Pyeatt asks about culturing Pedio. These bacteria are very fastitious so
plain agar is not a good medium. I suggest you to use MRS agar or (if are sure
not to have other competitive contaminants) APT agar.
Jose Martins
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 22:29:21 -0500
From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: p-lambic update
Just an update on the p-lambic that I described a few weeks back.
This has a 30% wheat (white spring wheat) with a variety of pale malts and
0.5 of D&W Aromatic malt thrown in for good measure. It had an SG of 1046
and was pitched with a complex mixture of starters (Hoegaarden yeast (250
ml), S. bayanus (5 ml), Boon Gueuze Dregs Starter, i.e. Brett + some bugs
(50 ml), and Pediococcus damnosus. Cultures were all pitched on December
18th (1993) - I think. Fermentation temp has probably been consistently
between 65-70F. Kraeusen subsided about 10 days or so ago. Took a gravity
reading 4 days ago = 1002. Carbon dioxide is still being produced (the
lock "pops" at a rate of about 1 "pop"/ 2-3 min.). No ropiness. No
pellicle.
How did it taste? Well...could be better :-), could be worse. On the up
side: not completely devoid of body (yet); maybe some sweetness left; yes
there is Brett character, both in nose and palate, not intense, but
definitely noticeable as such - a little more would be nice (oh, didn't use
any wood). Down side: a subtle harshness/astringency from the health food
store "sweet" hops (uh, oh, could these have been Chinook?) - not
overpowering bitterness though; no lactic sourness at this point, very
little complexity.
Expectations: Lactic sourness should greatly improve this once the pedio
kicks in. The sourness may cover some of the hops astringency. A little
more Brett character will make it interesting. Ultimately, the addition
of some fruit extract may help cover some of the objectionable qualities
(read: hop astringency), making it an interesting "fruit" beer.
I'll let you know.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 09:06:19 MST
From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: abbey ale (ooooh noooo... not more non-lambic!!!)
How about brett in abbey ale? Some samples of Chimay seem a wee
horsey to me (then again, i may not really have "horsey" understood).
aaron
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 17:44:13 +0100
From: per.egnell at csb.ki.se (Per Egnell)
Subject: Wyeast Wit
Hi All
I have grown the Wyeast Wit yeast from agar plates. My concern is that I
find at least two different yeast strains. So the question is, have anybody
else seen this? Is it my sample or shuold it be more than a single strain
in the package.
Per
Per Egnell, Center for Biotechnolgy
Karolinska Institute, NOVUM
S-141 57 Huddinge, SWEDEN
Tel: +46-8-608 91 60
Fax: +46-8-774 55 38
E-mail: per.egnell at cbt.ki.se
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 10:29 PST
From: Kyle R Roberson <kr_roberson at pnlg.pnl.gov>
Subject: L.delbrukii
Does someone know of a source of L.delbrukii that I can use to sour my wit
beer? Or, should I use Wyeast's new pedio culture (I ask only because it
produces lactic too)?
As an experiment, I'm culturing whatever lives in the pale malt (judging by the
looks of it a lot live in there!). I'm going to check the pH and smell of it
after 4-5 days of culturing. This is in an air-locked jug a la yeast starter.
If I'm brave enough, I'll taste it. However, a little net wisdom at this moment
would be sincerely appreciated.
TIA, Kyle
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 09:17:34 -0400
From: "Phillip R. Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: One dies in brewery explosion
Without meaning anything untoward, Daniel F McConnell recounted his
explosive experience with a pLambic.
According to our source at Louvain-la-Neuve (henceforth LLN), there was
an explosion last month at the Brasserie a Vapeur in Pipaix, Belgium. One
person was killed. At the moment is is unclear whether they will reopen.
The Brasserie a Vapeur made Saison de Pipaix, among other products.
Sorry, I don't have any further details.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 09:13:11 -0400
From: "Phillip R. Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #250 (January 07, 1994)
I hope everyone will excuse me for digging into old material, but I'm
just back home after two weeks, one of which was spent you-know-where.
Anyway, back in the Mezazoic Era Jeff Frane commented:
>Michael Jackson has changed his tune on Duvel, incidentally -- and about
>time. His earlier books always claimed it was an all-malt beer, but in
>the Beer Companion he mentions -- oh, by the way -- that they jack the
>OG up 20 points or so "before fermentation" with dextrose!
>
>I split a 750 ml bottle last night with my wife, and it's obvious that
>this is really how the beer is made -- it's way too dry for the gravity
>for an all-malt beer, IMHO.
>
>Jackson also says that they are using two yeast strains, narrowed down
>from multiple strains -- which DeClerck cultured from a
>bottle-conditioned McEwan's beer. !! So much for "Belgian" ale yeast,
>eh? Supposedly, the beer is fermented in separate batches (each with a
>single strain) and then blended.
>
>Jackson also sez they use Saaz and a Styrian Golding for hopping.
>
>But do the Belgians give him the straight?
>
>- --Jeff
The following is strictly gossip, but comes from impeccable sources:
First, Belgian law apparently requires that at least five sevenths
(5/7) of a beer's OG must be derived from malt. (Not sugar, not
adjuncts). This may be a helpful parameter when working up recipes.
Second, one of my friends was kind enough to set me up for a tour of
the brewing program at Louvain-la-Neuve, which trains both brewers
(1-year program) and Ph.D.s (6-year program). Our guide was in the
latter, and HE was the one who pointed out that, where top fermenting
beers are concerned, Belgian brewers never spill all their secrets.
Unfortunately, these brewers are generally the smaller ones, so there's
less research in their area. But I'll report on this soon.
Sorry for the delay; more to come as my brain and time permit.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 12:08:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Donovan Bodishbaugh <dfb at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Lactic acid
There's been a lot of discussion on sour beers lately, and I know use of
lactic acid has been widely discussed. Forgive me if this question has
been addressed. Does someone know of a good source for food grade lactic
acid? Recipes which use lactate to sour finished beer seem to call for
something like 20-30 ml per 5 gal. I've seen very small (like 4 ml)
bottles for sale in homebrew supply stores for a couple of bucks, but I'm
sure buying a liter or so would be a whole lot cheaper, and last a
lifetime. Chemical supply sources I know of are strictly lab use, and
tend to freak out when you mention food grade chemicals. Suggestions /
experiences would be greatly appreciated.
Rick Bodishbaugh
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 10:05:14 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Lactic acid
Rick writes:
> There's been a lot of discussion on sour beers lately, and I know use of
> lactic acid has been widely discussed. Forgive me if this question has
> been addressed. Does someone know of a good source for food grade lactic
> acid?
I bought mine through a local pharmacy at a cost of $20 for 16 oz.
You'll probably have to order it through the pharmacist and answer
a couple of questions about your reasons for wanting it. Some people
use it for wart burning, and they just want to make sure you know
how caustic it is. I think Alternative Beverage sells 4 oz. bottles
for a reaonable price, but I don't have their catalog handy.
One note - most Belgian-style beers that have lactic or acetic sourness,
such as wits (to some extent) and Oud Bruins, are also dry. While
sourness can be added with the acid, that doesn't give the dryness of
a true lactic fermentation. I've experimented with adding lactobacillus
with several of my wits, making beers that were extremely sour to some
that had only a slight sourness. Now I generally add the culture after
the gravity has dropped to about 1.020. The yeast alone would give
a final gravity of about 1.014, but with the lactobacillus, I'm able
to drop it down to 1.010 to get the dryness and what I think is a
decent level of sourness. Does this seem like a reaonable approach?
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 10:16:47 -0700
From: Steve Dempsey <steved>
Subject: Re: lactic acid
Full-Name: Steve Dempsey
In Lambic Digest #262 Donovan Bodishbaugh <dfb at acpub.duke.edu> writes:
>Does someone know of a good source for food grade lactic
>acid? Recipes which use lactate to sour finished beer seem to call for
>something like 20-30 ml per 5 gal. I've seen very small (like 4 ml)
>bottles for sale in homebrew supply stores for a couple of bucks, but I'm
>sure buying a liter or so would be a whole lot cheaper, and last a
>lifetime.
Anyone selling 4ml does not know what they are doing and is ripping you
off. Beverage People has a 4oz (120ml) size for about $6. This is probably
what you saw on the shelf; if not, BP's order line is +1 800 544 1867.
I've been able to order 500ml size from out of state chemical distributor
and from local lab supply retailer. Either way, they pass on $5 hazardous
materials handling charge (UPS), which makes it much less worthwhile to
order small quantities. For me, 500ml is about a 3 year supply; I've done
2 or 3 soured beers with lactic and normally used it to acidify mash and/or
sparge water. I've since moved to phosphoric acid for brewing and use lactic
only for souring finished beers. BTW, USP phosphoric is available from
George Hrouda Assoc., +1 909 924 7342; 500ml was $16+S&H last time I ordered.
>Chemical supply sources I know of are strictly lab use, and
>tend to freak out when you mention food grade chemicals.
Few deal in USP grade chemicals; you just have to find one that does.
I went to my library where they have on microfiche phone books from
all over the country. I pulled the yellow pages from major cities in
neighboring states and looked for chemical suppliers advertising retail.
Some states prohibit industrial chemicals by mail (CA), and some suppliers
won't do small orders. But a couple of phone calls later I had ordered
what I wanted.
================================ Engineering Network Services
Steve Dempsey Colorado State University
steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu Fort Collins, CO 80523
================================ +1 303 491 0630
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 15:33:57 PST
From: klein at physics.Berkeley.EDU (David Klein)
Subject: wheat
In preperation for my first lambic, I've been re-examining Guillards book,
and cant figure something out.
The problem is in the use of unmalted wheat. When he first describes the
mash process he says the wheat (berries) are added to the mashtun and a
normal multistep decoction is done. He says a few breweries have done
the doublemash american style mash as well.
Yet when he get to the homebrew section, he says tat if you use wheat
berries (as opposed to rolled wheat) you have to do a double mash or
boil the wheat first to solubilize the starches.
These two techniques seem to give different beers, the solubilized starches
will be broken down in the mash giving more sugar, while if one does a
normal mash with a 200 F sparge, they will get the long starch chains
extracted, which he claims is desirible in the final product (I know
that even if you boil the wheat you will get these starches, but I am
thinking about quantity.
It just seems to me that a homebrewed lambic should use the extremely
bizzare mashing style of the lambic brewers (1 gallon water per pound
and multi temperature decoction) for it gives a different beer.
Which is the most reasonable way to make a drinkable, traditional, reasonable
extract lambic?
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 15:52:07 -0500 (EST)
From: btg!rgarvin at uunet.UU.NET (Rick Garvin (703-761-6630))
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #262 (January 22, 1994)
Donovan Bodishbaugh <dfb at acpub.duke.edu> asks:
> There's been a lot of discussion on sour beers lately, and I know use of
> lactic acid has been widely discussed. Forgive me if this question has
> been addressed. Does someone know of a good source for food grade lactic
> acid?
I had pursued this recently. The only retail source that I have found for
Lactic acid is James Page Brewing Company (1-800-347-4042) in
Minneapolis. 4 oz 88% for $4.95.
I have spoken to my normal suppliers and it seems that none of the main
homebrew distributors carry it. The only availability is in 55 gallon
drums. While I am sure that I could find an alternative supplier with a
bit of work this may not be necessary. A local DC retailer thinks that
he has convinced JD Carlson to repackage and distribute it. If this
happens it will be generally available through the normal channnels.
Maybe we can get phosphoric acid next?
Cheers, Rick
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 12:35:14 -0400
From: "Phillip R. Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: More on lactic acid
Just a few comments:
1) I got my lactic acid from the Malt Shop, which is located somewhere
out there in the middle.
2) While lactic acid does work to add some tartness to beer, be aware
that it takes a fair bit of time for the flavors to blend. My white
beers took, oh, about two months to really taste just tart and not like
beer with lactic acid in it.
3) Scott Bickham commented that many oud bruin beers are dry. I tend
to disagree, though the level of sweetness varies. I know that
Liefmans deliberately sweetens their beer before packaging, and tasting
Felix suggests the same. Of course, this requires filtering before the
addition of sugar. However, I'd agree that the prediminant flavor
characteristic is a fruity sourness--and boy, do I love it!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 1994 16:36:37 -0500
From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: p-lambic erratum/aroma/starch
I need to make a revision concerning my recent posting on the progress of
my p-lambic, in light of the fact that my hydrometer has been grossly out
of calibration.
I indicated that my OG was about 1046. Although there is no way for me to
go back and take another reading, I would guess that it was probably
1052-1056. This is actually what I was shooting for. I reported that the
current gravity is 1002 after about 1 month. No way. Having rechecked the
gravity with a properly calibrated hydrometer, I can report that the
gravity is actually 1016. Big difference (if you have a hydrometer with a
paper insert indicating the scale, note that dropping it into its
container will cause the paper to slide down gradually - Gee whiz!).
So the gravity is still higher than I would have expected. The
Saccharomyces stage of fermentation seems to have subsided. Using
Hoegaarden yeast ,I was expecting a lower gravity. However, the decline in
activity may actually coincide with the decline in air temperature in the
closet (this is the "sleepy" yeast after all). So, the fermentation may
pick up with some warmer weather (this weekend). A final gravity of 1002
would not be unexpected, perhaps not so soon though.
Aaron Birenboim has asked me to comment on aroma. The main concern here is
that the Boon dregs (and thus starter) contain at least a couple different
bugs. One may in fact be a type of enteric. Let me digress for a moment -
the presence of enterics in the dregs may be indicative of Mr. Boon's
blending process. It is commonly mentioned that the enterics should not
survive the long aging process. However, they may be present if very young
lambic is blended to make the Gueuze, which is likely. Still, no S.
cerevisiae is present in the dregs (at least mine). Anyway, one of the
bugs thrives in the presence of dextrose and will form a thin, white film
on the top of the medium. With a little bit of time in the presence of
dextrose, a very strong fecal odor is produced (yuck). This odor
essentially replaces the acetaldehyde odor (cut green apples) that seems to
be produced by the Brett early on. In malt extract, the film and the fecal
odors are not present.
Based on these observations, I felt that it was safe to pitch the dregs
culture at the beginning of the ferment. Even if the bugs produced bad
aromas, I felt that they would subside with time. Aaron's earlier
observations, coupled with mine, suggest that pitching this culture with
the addition of dextrose at bottling time may cause some problems. I
haven't reached the point of deciding how to prime (dextrose vs. wort),
but I am inclined to brew a small batch of 30% wheat wort and blend some
time before bottling (this could also prove troublesome for obvious
reasons).
So, currently the only noticeable aroma is that contributed by the Brett
(which in this case is not necessarily acetaldehyde). I really don't know
what contribution these bugs make to the finished Boon Gueuze. I have
wondered whether they contribute to the strong mercaptan odor that some
have noticed upon opening a bottle of Boon Gueuze. The bottle from which
the dregs came initially had a very strong mercaptan odor - so much so that
a friend with whom I was sharing the bottle and I thought that it was light
struck. I believe that others have commented on this quality in the past.
So, now I am waiting for the gravity to drop about 12-14 points. I also
want to see some considerable souring. I will probably avoid dextrose,
unless I am feeling really gutsy (and lazy). I'll let you know.
Dave Klein writes:
>These two techniques seem to give different beers, the solubilized starches
>will be broken down in the mash giving more sugar, while if one does a
>normal mash with a 200 F sparge, they will get the long starch chains
>extracted, which he claims is desirible in the final product (I know
>that even if you boil the wheat you will get these starches, but I am
>thinking about quantity.
If you want long starch molecules, are you assuming that you can add all of
the right microbes that can utilize starch as a fermentable? I used the
wheat preboil and a double decoction of sorts following Guinard. I think
that he suggests sparging at 180F or so to extract residual starches. My
understanding is that Brett can work pretty well on some of the more
complex carbohydrates, but other yeasts and bugs that are not readily
available may be required to break down the all of the starches.
Additionally, you might consider whether the presence of a large number of
carbohydrates that cannot be fermented by S. cerevisiae may increase
characteristics produced by Brett (good or bad depending on what you want).
Maybe, you could obtain some residual starch by adding a small amount of
barley at mashout. A hot sparge could be used to extract the starch.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 08:50:01 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Oud Bruin
Phil sez:
> 3) Scott Bickham commented that many oud bruin beers are dry. I tend
> to disagree, though the level of sweetness varies. I know that
> Liefmans deliberately sweetens their beer before packaging, and tasting
> Felix suggests the same. Of course, this requires filtering before the
> addition of sugar. However, I'd agree that the prediminant flavor
> characteristic is a fruity sourness--and boy, do I love it!
After I posted that, I thought I'd do some research, so I bought a
bottle of Goudenband. I have a beer fermenting that I want to turn
into the sour brown style, so I'm trying to culture some of the critters
in the bottom of the bottle. The cork was dated 1991, so I don't think
I have much chance of success. Anyway, back to the beer. It was a
lot sweeter than I remembered and leaves enough sugars on the lips to
almost make them stick together. Hmm, maybe this style would work
best with lactic acid instead of lactobacillus ;-)
I checked on my pLambic yesterday. It hadn't changed at all in 2 weeks -
the gravity was still about 1.009, and to give it chance to be ready
for spring competitions, I added the cherries. A few hours later I had
to replace the airlock with a blowoff tube, so the yeast and bacteria
are still active. I wonder if I'm patient enough to brew this style ;-)
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 08:19:57 -0800 (PST)
From: malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl)
Subject: The Lambic Mash
In Lambic Digest #263, David Klein mused:
> The problem is in the use of unmalted wheat. When he first describes the
> mash process he says the wheat (berries) are added to the mashtun and a
> normal multistep decoction is done. He says a few breweries have done
> the doublemash american style mash as well.
>
> Yet when he get to the homebrew section, he says tat if you use wheat
> berries (as opposed to rolled wheat) you have to do a double mash or
> boil the wheat first to solubilize the starches.
That's indeed the case.
> These two techniques seem to give different beers, the solubilized starches
> will be broken down in the mash giving more sugar, while if one does a
> normal mash with a 200 F sparge, they will get the long starch chains
> extracted, which he claims is desirible in the final product (I know
> that even if you boil the wheat you will get these starches, but I am
> thinking about quantity.
>
> It just seems to me that a homebrewed lambic should use the extremely
> bizzare mashing style of the lambic brewers (1 gallon water per pound
> and multi temperature decoction) for it gives a different beer.
There's a detail that shouldn't be overlooked: the Belgian brewers
using such extremely thin mashes are also using direct steam
injection for mashout. Therefore, the mash is so thin not because
they necessarily want it to be, but because that's what happens
when you inject steam.
> Which is the most reasonable way to make a drinkable, traditional, reasonable
> extract lambic?
I think that perhaps the point that Guinard didn't make quite forcefully
enough is that what happens from pitching on is a much greater
determinant of the end product than are the earlier steps. I've
tasted quite reasonable faux-lambics that have been made from extract
worts, or using malted wheat, flaked wheat, American-style mixed
mashes and double decoction mashes. I generally lean toward this
last, but have seen nothing so far to cause me to believe that using
some other approach will necessarily be a handicap. As long as the
wort is light-bodied, rich in fermentable extract, but reasonably
free of malt or hop flavors, you have a promising beginning.
= Martin Lodahl Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning, Pacific*Bell =
= malodah at pacbell.com Sacramento, CA USA 916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me! (Unk.) =
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 11:02 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Fecalbier
The very first beer labeled a "Gueuze" that I had the opportunity to
taste was a St. Louis "Gueuze" which was probably a couple of years
old. I got it at the Weinkeller in Berwyn, Illinois in February of
1992, but I'll bet that it spent at least a year or two in their
cooler. The beer tasted like a basket of fruit, and I had to check a
few times that it was not a fruit lambiek. It did have a decidedly
fecal odor along with some horseyness and all those fruits. It took
a little while to get used to, but I really enjoyed the beer overall.
Subsequent bottles of this same beer have not had the horseyness or
fecal aroma and the fruit was quite a bit less pronounced.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 08:54:00 PST
From: "SIMPSON, Mark (x-4378)" <Simpson at po2.rb.unisys.com>
Subject: Fecal Brews??? Yummmm???
Hey Guys,
This is WAY too advanced for me.
"It did have a decidedly fecal odor along with some horseyness and all those
fruits. It took
a little while to get used to, but I really enjoyed the beer overall."
Is this for real??? Am I missing something here??? Fecal??? Horsey???
Which end???
Please, someone send me a mug of Sierra Nevada PA, QUICK!!!
TNFAEBCat (the-non-fecal-arome-enjoying-brew-cat)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 11:56:31 EDT
From: VOLKER <radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu>
Subject: Liefman's?
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 08:50:01 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Oud Bruin
>After I posted that, I thought I'd do some research, so I bought a
>bottle of Goudenband. I have a beer fermenting that I want to turn
>into the sour brown style, so I'm trying to culture some of the critters
>in the bottom of the bottle. The cork was dated 1991, so I don't think
>I have much chance of success.
?? Is it my imagination or did I read here that Liefman's actually
paseurizes their beers? Or was it just the ones for the US? Hmm...
Volker "remembering finding Goudenband for $1.99 a bottle, mislabeled" Stewart
radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 9:04:00 EST
From: Dick Herring <rdh1 at ctt.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #266 (January 26, 1994)
>
>
> Hey Guys,
>
> This is WAY too advanced for me.
>
>
> "It did have a decidedly fecal odor along with some horseyness and all those
> fruits. It took
> a little while to get used to, but I really enjoyed the beer overall."
>
>
> Is this for real??? Am I missing something here??? Fecal??? Horsey???
> Which end???
Gueuzes are like life .. you must get by the s**t to
taste the sweetness.
Pass me the Listerine quick!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 09:38:01 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #266 (January 26, 1994)
Re fecal brews:
>Is this for real??? Am I missing something here??? Fecal??? Horsey???
> Which end???
>
>Please, someone send me a mug of Sierra Nevada PA, QUICK!!!
Actually, fecal brew goes quite nicely with a slice of wheat bread
smeared with cream cheese and dotted with sliced radishes and fresh
black pepper. Of course, it IS a specialized taste. :-)
On Liefman's from VOLKER <radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu>:
>?? Is it my imagination or did I read here that Liefman's actually
>paseurizes their beers? Or was it just the ones for the US? Hmm...
Cold filtered, NEVER heat pasteurized! :-)
(Really!)
By the way, is Philippe Perpete out there? If so, would you care to
comment on fecal aromas and the sour/sweet balance in oud bruins?
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 10:31:00 CST
From: David H Klatte <dhklatte at midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Oud Brun (sp?) questions
Hello all,
I am planning to attempt a pseudo sour brown ale. I intend to use
the grain bill outlined in the Belgian Ale book (it might have been
the Lambic book) from the Classic Beer Style series. But I was
thinking of doing a sour mash as outlined in the recent Zymurgy. I
have no idea how much to sour mash to get the appropriate level of
sourness for the style, though. Has anyone done anything like this?
How does 50% of the pale malt sound? Or am I going about this
entirely the wrong way? Target sourness would be in the Goudenband-
Rodenbach range, I guess. I await the wisdom of the Net.
And while I have your ear, so to speak, is there a FAQ file that
deals with the peculiarities of culturing for plambics?
Thanks,
David
) David H. Klatte The University of Chicago, Department of (
) Compuserve:70732,1146 Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (
) dhklatte at midway.uchicago.edu (
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 16:52:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Alex Crowe <crowe at medusa.bioc.aecom.yu.edu>
Subject: first time
Dear lambic brewers,
I am starting on my first lambic beer batch in the next few weeks and I
would like some input on the lactic fermentation process. I plan to use a
culture of Lactobacillus delbruckii to do a lactic ferment of the "mash" for a
few days before I boil it . I am using malt extracts for about 70% of the malt
in the final product and am using flaked unmalted wheat as well. My questions are:
1) should I include all of the grain and extracts in the lactic ferment?
2) should I do the lactic ferment first, or add the L. delbruckii to the yeast
ferment (I will use Brettanomyces lambicus)? I am afraid that I will produce an
unstable beer if I don't kill the bacteria before I do the ferment, but this
method was reccommended to me by the distributor that sold me the cultures.
3) how do I culture the L. delbruckii and B. lambicus to maintain pure strains?
I work in a laboratory, so I should be able to do even the most outrageous
somersaults to maintain the cultures. I just need to know what to do.
4) I am trying to create a cranberry lambic, do you think that 10 lbs of
cranberries is sufficient? can they be frozen or must they be fresh? crushed or
not? ARe 15 minutes in the wort at 70 degrees C.enough to get good flavor without
getting pectins?
I haveordered the Classic Beer Styles Lambic issue, but it has not arrived yet.
Please answer any of my questions that are not addressed in that issue.
Thanks,
Alex Crowe
crowe at medusa.bioc.aecom.yu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 07:00:32 -0600
From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss)
Subject: Re: beginner questions
Alex Crowe <crowe at medusa.bioc.aecom.yu.edu> writes:
> I am starting on my first lambic beer batch in the next few weeks and I
>would like some input on the lactic fermentation process. I plan to use a
>culture of Lactobacillus delbruckii to do a lactic ferment of the "mash" for a
>few days before I boil it . I am using malt extracts for about 70% of the malt
>in the final product and am using flaked unmalted wheat as well. My questions are:
>1) should I include all of the grain and extracts in the lactic ferment?
>2) should I do the lactic ferment first, or add the L. delbruckii to the yeast
>ferment (I will use Brettanomyces lambicus)? I am afraid that I will produce an
>unstable beer if I don't kill the bacteria before I do the ferment, but this
>method was reccommended to me by the distributor that sold me the cultures.
>3) how do I culture the L. delbruckii and B. lambicus to maintain pure strains?
>I work in a laboratory, so I should be able to do even the most outrageous
>somersaults to maintain the cultures. I just need to know what to do.
>4) I am trying to create a cranberry lambic, do you think that 10 lbs of
>cranberries is sufficient? can they be frozen or must they be fresh? crushed or
>not? ARe 15 minutes in the wort at 70 degrees C.enough to get good flavor without
>getting pectins?
1) you definitiely need a brettanomyces culture, IMHO (and in guinard's,
you also need pediococcus, but he doesn't mention delbruckii - that
is used in berliner weisse)
2) forget the sour mash and let the bacteria do the work in the secondary.
3) "a few days" is not long enough to culture brettanomyces (or pediococcus)
really no need to worry about any of the cultures being totally "pure".
4) why sanitize the cranberries at all? just make sure you add them after
the primary ferment, so that any bacteria the contribute do not achieve
sufficient number to produce too much sourness. crushing shouldn't
matter (crush half if it eases your mind). 10 lb of cherries is about
right, you need more than 10 lb of peaches, not sure about cranberries.
5) be patient (as in several months to a year), don't disturb anything after
the primary is done & you've added the fruit.
6) whether to add the pedio & brett in the primary or secondary is still
up in the air (at least in the collective wisdom of this digest)
bb
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 10:49:03 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp)
Subject: CA readers only...
Hi,
I'm looking for anyone who knows a distributor (not a local supermarket
beer clerk) in California _well_. Please send me e-mail if you think you
fall in this category.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 08:10:55 MST
From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: Primary?
Brian Bliss said:
>whether to add the pedio & brett in the primary or secondary...
Secondary??? Is the collected wisdon calling for a secondary?
I heard that the traditional lambic brewers go coolship to barrell to
bottle. no secondary. What do you do, Mike? Martin?
aaron
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 10:24:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Alex Crowe <crowe at medusa.bioc.aecom.yu.edu>
Subject: ecology
HI folks,
Iwant to thank everyone for being so helpful with this hapless beginner.
Your comments will all be taken into account when I start my brew (I have to
wait for a carboy to become available in the house). It seems to me that there
is in fact very little that every one does in common (at least you all add water
to the wort). THis brings me to the subject of the ecology of all the organisms
used to make a lambic. It seems that what happens is that there are many levels
of fermentation going on in the same batch and that the various organisms will
"bloom" at various times. Does this correlate with sugar usage? For example, does
the initial S. cerevisiae ferment die down when the monosaccharides are all
utilised to be followed by the Brettanomyces strains as they begin to break down
the complex carbohydrates in the unmalted wheat. DO the bacteria strains utilise
different sugars than the yeast, or is there a grand feeding frenzy on the
glucose and maltose? I've encountered a lot of literature regarding utilization
of D-xylose by lactic fermenting bacteria, is this an issue for lambics or a
more general food related issue (it seems that there is a lot of interest in
lactic fermeneters in keeping food fresh, the lactate must be inhibiting the
botulism causing organisms.)? The bacteria of choice seems to be Pediococcus for
lambics and lactobacillus for Berliner wiesse. How about the lactobacilli that
are used in yogurt production, can they be used in beers?
I look forward to your comments.
Alex
crowe at medusa.bioc.aecom.yu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 11:32:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Secondary?
> From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
> Subject: Primary?
> Brian Bliss said:
> >whether to add the pedio & brett in the primary or secondary...
>
> Secondary??? Is the collected wisdon calling for a secondary?
> I heard that the traditional lambic brewers go coolship to barrell to
> bottle. no secondary. What do you do, Mike? Martin?
>
Just a data point: At Oud Beersel they do primary in a large SS
tank, then cask it for a few years. I seem to recall this also
at Cantillion, but thats going back a few years. I do remember
the ouzing barrels at Cantillion being sealed with paraffin.
Jim Busch
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 08:39:22 -0800 (PST)
From: malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl)
Subject: About Secondaries ...
In Lambic Digest #271, Aaron Birenboim replied to Brian Bliss:
> Brian Bliss said:
> >whether to add the pedio & brett in the primary or secondary...
>
> Secondary??? Is the collected wisdon calling for a secondary?
> I heard that the traditional lambic brewers go coolship to barrell to
> bottle. no secondary. What do you do, Mike? Martin?
The commercial producers do go from coolship to barrel, but then
rack to another barrel after "primary" fermentation is done. They
do this probably for pretty much the same reasons that we do:
to leave behind some of the crud. We have perhaps more
reason to do so, as the overnight stay in the coolship drops
out the trub very efficiently, so the beer going into the barrels
is quite clear. Nevertheless, it's going to be around a long time,
so another racking is a good idea. Another reason for them to
rack is that after the first and most active stages of fermentation
are over they wish to close the barrel to minimize mechanical
damage to the pellicle, as well as possible contamination. To
do this they place about 4 plies of corduroy over the rectangular
bung, then wedge it in place with a billet of wood. Primary
fermentation is done with the bung open and the froth pouring
out and running down the sides of the barrel, and as the foam
dries it forms a hard but porous closure over the bung, which
would have to be removed in order to use the more reliable cloth
closure. That would be very difficult to do without contaminationg
the beer, unless the beer were first racked to other barrels.
I've tried several variations on the "when to pitch" theme, including
pitching the Pedio & Brett separately in the secondary, together
in the secondary, and together along with the original yeast,
and am really not convinced that it makes a major difference.
Others may well have had a different experience.
- Martin
= Martin Lodahl Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning, Pacific*Bell =
= malodah at pacbell.com Sacramento, CA USA 916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me! (Unk.) =
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 8:29:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: BJCP Exam Offered
The Old Pueblo Homebrewers will be offering
The Beer Judge Certification Program Exam
On May 7, 1994 at 10:00 am
The exam is tentatively scheduled to be offered at
2332 E. Adams St.
Tucson, AZ 85719
The fee is $50 for first time takers and $30 for retakes. The NON-refundable
fee must be recieved to the address listed above by April 1, 1994. Please make
checks payable to "Old Pueblo Homebrewers". If you have any questions feel
free to contact me via e-mail or call (602)881-8768.
jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 94 08:04:15 PST
From: art at art.md.interlink.com
Subject: faq
send faq from lambic
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 09:01:06 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Belgian Candi Sugar
I discovered today that F H Steinbart, here in Portland (Beer Heaven)
Oregon, has gotten a stock of dark Belgian candi sugar (I believe the
color is somewhere around 250). Price is something like $2.95/lb. Be
advised that this is granulated, rather than rock sugar, but my Belgian
correspondent has assured me in the past that this is the same stuff and
available in an array of forms in Belgium. I couldn't sniff the sugar I
saw at Steinbart's, cause me nose is stuffed up, but I was assured it
had almost no aroma -- which is good, because it means that it probably
is the right stuff: no molasses.
F H Steinbart is at (503) 232-8793. 234 SE 12th, Portland OR 97214
Tell 'em Jeff sent you.
Standard yadda yadda disclaimers apply -- although I do teach a
beginning homebrew class there.
- --Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 94 14:04:09 EST
From: Mark Stickler <mstickle at lvh.com>
Subject: Unmalted Wheat
Help! Does anyone know of source for unmalted wheat?
I would prefer cooked, rolled wheat flakes but would
settle for just about anything at this point. No malters
or Homebrew retailers that I know of can get it. Even the
local "feed store" says they won't have any until summer.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, this is holding
up my pLambic!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 94 11:13:36 PST
From: klein at physics.Berkeley.EDU (David Klein)
Subject: bittering oranges
when I went to a new grocery store (new for me that is) I made an interesting
discovery, fresh seville oranges imported from spain.
these oranges were advertised as sour oranges, and had a hard bumpy orange
peel. I was wondering if anyone knew their relation to belgian bittering
oranges (which are also from spain I beleive) (caricao (dont recall exact
spelling)) and if these wound act as a good substitute.
I've been preparing for a white, and have just not been able to find bitter
orange peel anywhere, and would like to know if anyone has had sucess with
these.
dave
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 94 10:09:14 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Belgian brewing ingredients
Jeff (Where's my beer?) Frane writes:
>I discovered today that F H Steinbart, here in Portland (Beer Heaven)
>Oregon, has gotten a stock of dark Belgian candi sugar (I believe the
>color is somewhere around 250). Price is something like $2.95/lb. Be
While I can't speak for the coloring capacities of dark candi, I can
say that the price here seems reasonable. In Belgian supermarkets I
pay about $1.50 (50 Belgian francs) for a pound. Add some shipping and...
Mark Stickler asks where to get unmalted wheat:
Your local health food store or food coop will definitely have it. Ask
for wheat berries.
David Klein asks:
>when I went to a new grocery store (new for me that is) I made an interesting
>discovery, fresh seville oranges imported from spain.
>
>these oranges were advertised as sour oranges, and had a hard bumpy orange
>peel. I was wondering if anyone knew their relation to belgian bittering
>oranges (which are also from spain I beleive) (caricao (dont recall exact
>spelling)) and if these wound act as a good substitute.
>
>I've been preparing for a white, and have just not been able to find bitter
>orange peel anywhere, and would like to know if anyone has had sucess with
>these.
Curacao orange is greenish gray; this doesn't sound like the same
thing. Keep in mind that curacao orange peel has little or no orange
flavor--it's all bitterness. You can order curacao orange peel from
the Frozen Wort in Massachusetts. They've had some ads in recent
issues of zymurgy. If you can't find their phone number, send me a
direct E-mail.
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 94 12:00:52 EST
From: "Stephen C. Anthony" <steveo at Think.COM>
Subject: 1st time Lambic
After a recent trip to Belgium, and visiting Cantillon and Ould Beersel, I
got the urge to try to make a lambic. So, I infused 2# wheat with 4# of
light malt and boiled with a couple of ounces of hops.
I had purchased a vial of the peddiococcus (sp?) yeast and to proof it, I
boiled up a pint of water with a cup of malt for 10 minutes. I cooled it
down by imersing the pot in some cold water and when it was cool enough,
added the contents of the vial of yeast. I let that sit covered for 3 days,
and when I added it to the beer, it had no appreciable signs of
fermentation. No foam of any kind. It did, however, have a slightly
butterscotch smell.
So, into the beer it went. It's been over a week now, and I still don't see
any appreciable signs of fermentation. I should ammend that to say that
perhaps a bubble or two from the air lock per day. But other than that,
nothing obvious.
So, is it time to worry? Anyone else have any experience with this? I've
been brewing for 10 years but this is my first Lambic.
Thanks for any thoughts/encouragement.
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 94 09:16:14 -0800
From: eurquhar at sfu.ca
Subject: oranges
Seville or marmalade or sour oranges are extremely close to the real
curacao oranges which was planted a few hundred years ago by the spanairds
on the island of Curacao near the northern end of south America. By them
now as they have a short season. They will freeze nicely. We get alot of
these oranges in B.C.which are grown in Arizona.
Eric Urquhart (eurquhar at sfu.ca)
Centre for Pest Management, Dept. of Biological Sciences
Simon Fraser University, Burnaby , B.C. Canada V5A 1S6
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:14:05 -0600 (CST)
From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead)
Subject: Le Fruit Defendu
I've been trying for some time to find a recipe for Le Fruit Defendu.
I was wondering if anyone out there has experimented with recipes for
it.
Also, on my last trip to Belgium, I was fortunate enough to try two
beers made by the Brewers from Esen. They were called "Arabier" and
"Oerbier". Has anyone tried formulating either of these?
Thanks alot,
Ted
------------------------------
