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Lambic Digest #9312
Lambic Digest #9312 Wed 01 Dec 1993
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 93 10:00:23 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #223 (December 01, 1993)
Brian Nummer asked:
>
>Does anyone know of a method to bottle special beers in corked bottles.
>I suppose I could bottle with champagne bottles, but all I can find are plastic corks.
>Does anyone know of a source of cork closures? I am trying to get the
>traditional look of some Belgian beers or Biere de gardes. The bottle that
>comes to mind first is Tres Monts, a Biere de Garde.
I will defer to anyone with wine experience here, but in visits to a
number of Belgian breweries I've seen people at more than one place
bottling in champagne bottles. As I see it, there are two factors to consider:
1) Preparation of the cork. To my great surprise, both breweries were
using corks pulled straight out of the supplier's bag (usually a giant,
transparent garbage-type bag) with no sanitization. At one place where
we discussed this a bit they said there was nothing for bacteria to
live on on a clean cork (of which I'm suspicious, but...). In any
case, the opinion seems to be that if the cork is reasonably clean, you
can use it.
2) Insertion. Champagne corks require a fair bit of compression, and
everybody has a machine to do this. Another strategy (a la
Lindemanns and others) is to use a wine cork, then cap the bottle.
This should not be a problem if you use American champagne bottles,
which take a standard crown cap. (Hot tip: Dom Perignon ALSO takes a
crown cap, so if you can't stand to drink a case of Cold Duck...... :-)
Finally, I might point out that plastic champagne corks work great.
You lose the aesthetics, but they're easy to sanitize and insert, are
relatively cheap, and require no additional equipment.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 93 10:03:39 CST
From: Paul A. Lane <palane at iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #223 (December 01, 1993)
unsubscribe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 08:23:45 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Champagne Corker
Brian Nummer asks:
> Does anyone know of a method to bottle special beers in corked bottles.
> I suppose I could bottle with champagne bottles, but all I can find are plastic corks.
> Does anyone know of a source of cork closures? I am trying to get the
> traditional look of some Belgian beers or Biere de gardes. The bottle that
> comes to mind first is Tres Monts, a Biere de Garde.
>
I had envisioned something very similar, reasoning that not only would
plastic corks be unaesthetic, but would contribute nothing to the beer
- -- potentially there is some passage of gas through cork, and I suspect
it does make a difference in beers that sit for any length of time.
Unfortunately, when I checked with F H Steinbart, a very large homebrew
supply store (wholesale/retail) here in Portland, I was told that home
winemakers are limited to plastic closures for Champagne bottles.
According to them, at least, there isn't a device for the home for
inserting the corks. Wine corks are easy -- the device compresses the
moist corks and crams it into the neck of the bottle, but the big knob
on the end of the champagne cork makes this compression more
problematic.
If someone does come up with such a product for the home market, I would
be happy to pass the information along to Steinbart's.
- --Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 09:45:03 PST
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: FB Addendum
Frank Boon - addendum
Damn. You go halfway around the world in search of
truth, knowing you get only one shot at it. You put
together what seems to be a logical and consistent
picture, and believe you've done a thorough job.
Upon reporting your findings, someone points out
that you left unarmed with a key piece of info.......
After reading my post regarding FB beers, Jim Liddil
pointed out an oversight on my part :
FB fruit lambieks are filtered and pasteurized.
Obviously they won't age in the bottle the same way
a bottle conditioned beer would, and thus laying
them down won't allow them to take on the complexity
of a Marriage Parfait.
I would expect some of the fruitiness to diminish, but
there are no critters to metabolize the residual sugars.
Sorry for the oversight.
CR
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 93 10:21:15 EST
From: zen at hophead.north.net (Nick Zentena)
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #223 (December 01, 1993)
lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (Are you SURE you want to send it HERE? writes:
> Does anyone know of a method to bottle special beers in corked bottles. I su
> Does anyone know of a source of cork closures? I am trying to get the
Try a wine making shop. You will also need a corker.
So find a place that will also loan/rent you one.
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 10:52:44 PST
> From: art at art.md.interlink.com
> Subject: questions
>
> bacteria that I need. My local brew shop has everything. The cherries
> have been a problem, though. Should I use cherry extract? How about
> cherry juice? I am considering substituting cranberries, as they are
> sour and tart enough, as well as being plentiful. I can get canned sour
> cherries or fresh Bing cherries (at $4.00 a pound!). Any ideas about
> fruit? I'd like to do this without going broke.
IMHO don't use bing the flavour is all wrong. I
think tart pie cherries would be fine but you should
get whole not pitted. This is a beer best made when
the fruit is in season. I haven't looked at his
recipe but you are likely looking at 6+months before
adding the fruit. Thats almost about the time
cherries are in season. So I'd started the beer and
just wait for the cherries to become available in
the summer.
Nick
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I drink Beer I don't collect cute bottles!
zen at hophead.north.net
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1993 15:01:44 -0500 (EST)
From: "Robert H. Reed" <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Cork Closures
Brian writes:
>
> Does anyone know of a method to bottle special beers in corked bottles. .
<snip>
I am trying to get the
> traditional look of some Belgian beers or Biere de gardes.
I recently had some of the Boon Lambics and noticed that the corks look
like long, large diameter corks. After the cork has been removed for
several hours, it expands back to a point where it looks like a cork
of constant diameter. It appears to me that the cork is compressed
and inserted about halfway into the bottle and finally, secured with a
wire retainer similar to those used in champagne bottles.
Rob Reed
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 93 09:59:03 +0100
From: dejonge at tekserv.geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: Champagne corks
Regarding Brian Nummer's question on bottling:
A local homebrew store sells simple metal clamps (just
a rigid u-shaped wire) that fit over a normal cork to hold
it down. I haven't tried them yet but if you're interested
I can ask for the supplier address.
I use normal corks capped with a 29 mm crown cap that fits the
37.5 and 75 cl geuze bottles. (The cheap Italian bottle capper
I bought came with both 26 and 29 mm parts)
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Marc de Jonge dejonge at geof.ruu.nl
Utrecht University, Geophysics dept, Utrecht, the Netherlands
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 93 13:03:24 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Cork closures
A couple of tips for anyone contemplating corking.
First, sanitation. I am nervous about soaking a porous cork in any steriliser
for a prolonged period, as there is no guarantee that rinsing will be
effective. So, I tend to opt for a soak in boiling water.
Second, bottle headspace. The cork will insert easier and there will be less
aeration if you slide a piece of wire or strong plastic between cork and bottle
neck.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 93 09:24:02 PST
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Lambik Secrets frm Frank Boon
Lambik Secrets from Frank Boon
During my recent visit with Frank I described the growing number of
homebrewers interested in Lambik beers, and told him about the
so-called "Guinard Method". He found this interesting and vaguely
amusing, but was convinced that pure culture lambiks were probably
impossible, and at the very least impractical. So I asked him if he would
share some info about his fermentation techniques. Frank knows that
when he speaks to me, he speaks to a much wider audience as well, and
thus was anything but frank. He's spent 20 years getting where he is
now, and isn't going to give all his secrets away freely. Nonetheless,
here's what he told me.
During the '60's, there were two lambik breweries especially renown for
quality. One was owned by Mr. Winderickx, and the other by Mr. Van
Haelen. (There sons Jimwi and Aeddie, later became famous guitarists!)
Frank learned his lambik riffs from them. He didn't expect them to
necessarily know why they did things a certain way, he only knew that
their methods worked. His approach was to first master their techniques
as they existed, and then modify them one variable at a time, in a
relatively controlled fashion.
Today Frank has identified 86 (!) different strains which he believes
play a significant role in his fermentation. Some of these strains have
a direct impact on the finished product (like Saccharomyces or
Brettanomyces), others play a more symbiotic role, producing
intermediate substances which are then metabolized by other organisms.
He let me glance briefly at his master chart showing all 86 critters,
their cell concentrations over time, effect on pH, alcohol content,
significant by-products, etc., etc. Frank's intention was to let me see
it just long enough to gain an appreciation for the complexity
involved, but not really grasp the detail. It worked.
More explicitly, Frank pointed out that wort composition was absolutely
critical. We all know that one way to select for different types of
microbes is via different growth media. He considers the wort to be a
growth medium, in which subtle differences will effect which strains
live and which strains die. Using the proper amount of wheat, getting
the mash profile just right, the aged hops, all of these effect the
growth medium substantially. He believes that a 4 1/2 hour boil is
needed to further break down protiens into amino acids which are
required nutrients for certain lambik beasties. He stopped short of
telling me which amino acids and which beasties.
Surprisingly, Frank believes that Pajottenland water is too hard, and
so he de-ionizes it and adds back the desired minerals. This struck me
as being a akin to saying that Plzen water is too soft for a good
Pilsner!
Frank stressed the importance of the early formation of a pellicle
composed largely of strains Candida and Pichia. This pellicle is a very
complex living pancake of a community. It is exposed to air (with lots
of CO2) on top, wort of evolving composition on bottom, with CO2
percolating through it. Its importance is largely to set the stage for
subsequent activities.
Frank's fermentation involves 10 different strains of Brettanomyces,
reaching a maximum concentration of 0.3-0.4 cells/ml. B. clausenii
being the most important for character development, more so than B.
lambicus or B. bruxellensis. Another unnamed Brett strain contributes
to the beer's dryness. It secretes an enzyme to break 1-4 links in
carbohydrate chains, thereby breaking down dextrins. Yet another strain
of Brett contributes by generating an enzyme which nibbles glucose
molecules from carbohydrate chains. This glucose is an important food
source for Pediococcus. In contrast, Guinard states that Pediococcus
activity traditionally precedes Brett activity. He and Frank differ on
several points.
There are six strains of enteric bacteria which play roles of varying
significance. They primarily produce substances which promote or inhibit
other microbes. They can also be a source of lactic acid.
Kloeckera apiculata is also useful to help keep the amount of lactic
acid in check. However, Kloekera can also produce fatty acids (caproic,
caprylic, etc), if other key (but alas, unnamed) strains are absent.
Frank considers fatty acids problematic.
Of course the proper treatment of barrels is crucial. According to Mr.
Winderickx, the barrels must be properly cleaned within two days of
emptying them. Otherwise they will harbor acetic acid bacteria. Frank
feels that acetic acid has no place in lambik beer. This differs from
JP Van Roy at Cantillon, whose beers often contain large amount of
acetic acid.
There have of course, been others before us attempting to make lambiks
from pure cultures. One of the most notable recent attempts has been by
Rene Lindemans son. He had just graduated from the Catholic University at
Leuven, and was convinced that he could accomplish this feat. After a
couple years of attempts, he went back to spontaneous fermentation. If
you're already in Pajottenland, it's the most practical thing to do.
(The real Lindemans Gueuze, by the way, is excellent. Nothing like the
candy syrup we get in the States. Unlabelled bottle, swash of white
paint, sour, rich and complex. It's a shame that their fine product
gets perverted into Kool Aid.)
On blending beers, Frank's Gueuze is a mixture of one and three year
old lambik. He uses mostly young lambik such that Saccharomyces is
dominant. This helps to consume oxygen which is inevitably introduced
during the blending process. Using mostly old lambik allows
Brettanomyces to dominate, which produces a harder lambik. It is also
more susceptible to oxidation, and can be recognized by its darker
color.
This is hardly a complete description of the process, and no doubt
generates more questions than answers. It is however, what Frank was
willing to share. As such, it's part of the journey.
CR
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 09:22:59 MST
From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: more geueze reports
OK... more on the geueze I bottled after a 14 month ferment
with a Boon culture.
At bottling it was a pretty thin, but sour smeling and tasting brew.
A few days later it was cloudy and smelled and tasted strongly of
green apples (acetaldehyde?).
Then I got fluffy stuff, in time this sank to the bottom of the bottle
and is starting to compact..... although it remains fluffy. I think
this may have been acetobacter (or something else aerobic) which sank
when the O2 of the head space was gone.
Later a thin white pellicle formed (brett?).
That pellicle remains today although the beer has cleared.
I have shaken up a few bottles to break the pellicle and have it sink,
so I can taste the stuff.
Mr. Saikley's report on Frank Boon confirms some of my feelings on
this bottle culture. The one thing that suprizes me is that Sacc.
still dominates in a year old lambic! The green apple tasting was 3
days after bottling, and the beer alredy had a little fizz. Suprizing
since I bottled 5 gal with only my surviving critters and a 50ml boon
culture. Mr. Boon said that brett dominates in an old lambic....
well that explaines the brett pellicle in my bottles now.
I'll report again as soon as I can get a pellicle to break up, and
have clear beer to drink. I just can't bring myself to drink a beer
full of fluffys and pellicle chunks.
aaron
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 10:18:09 PST
From: dougd at uts.amdahl.com (Douglas DeMers)
Subject: Cherries for lambics
There has been some traffic on this list regarding fruit for faux kriek
beers. I thought I'd pass along another possible source available to
those brewers in California. I've found dried (de-pitted) morello
cherries at Trader Joe's. I believe these are imported from
Czechoslovakia (or whatever it is now called). Mind you, I haven't had
the opportunity to use the ones I've bought yet, and they're not
cheap. Trader Joe's typically does not use preservatives in their
products although I can't say for certain that these do not have
preservatives.
They also have canned morello cherries; packed in syrup
(unfortunately).
BTW, Trader Joe's also has dried cranberries, but cranberries are somewhat
more generally available.
Cheers!
__
Douglas DeMers, | (408-746-8546) | dougd at uts.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corporation | | {sun,uunet}!amdahl!dougd
[It should be obvious that the opinions above are mine, not Amdahl's.]
[ Amdahl makes computers, not beer. ]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 13:08:42 PST
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Pacific Coast Tripel
Just a quick note aimed at those in the SF Bay area.
Pacific Coast's Christmas beer is an attempt at an
Abbey Tripel. Strictly speaking, it's very wide of
the mark. Color too dark, to hoppy, not estery enough,
residual sweetness not quite right...
But on the other hand, the fact that they're doing a
Tripel at all is commendable. This is their first attempt,
with another already in the fermenter. It's definitely
worth checking out.
CR
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 05:48:51 -0600
From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss)
Subject: priming
Aaron Birenboim write:
>after 3 days there's already a little fizz.
what a good amount of priming sugar to use?
why does a lambic develop carbonation so quickly, when
the sacc. is long dormant and most of the bacteria do not
produce CO2?
bb
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 10:41:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Garvin <rgarvin at access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #226 (December 04, 1993)
> Just a quick note aimed at those in the SF Bay area.
> Pacific Coast's Christmas beer is an attempt at an
> Abbey Tripel. Strictly speaking, it's very wide of
> the mark. Color too dark, to hoppy, not estery enough,
> residual sweetness not quite right...
>
> But on the other hand, the fact that they're doing a
> Tripel at all is commendable. This is their first attempt,
> with another already in the fermenter. It's definitely
> worth checking out.
For those of you who keep score. I saw this yesterday in the Washington,
DC area being unpacked at Bardo. All it says is "Christmas."
Cheers, Rick
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1993 12:01:21 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Brett cell count
in Lambic Digest #225
In C.R. Saikley's post about Boon's techniques, he mentions:
>Frank's fermentation involves 10 different strains of Brettanomyces,
>reaching a maximum concentration of 0.3-0.4 cells/ml.
If Brett dominates in older lambics, how can this be with .3-.4
cells/mL? That would make 5700 to 7600 cells per 5 gallon batch. Should
there not be an exponential in there? Like .3-.4 * 10^6 cells/mL, or at
least .3-.4 * 10^3. 5700 yeast cells would occupy, at a rough guestimate,
.1 cc of volume in a 5 gallon batch. Hard to see how this could dominate,
even over time.
____________
Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. |
Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________|
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 93 10:15:19 -0400
From: "Phillip R. Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Priming
I haven't tried making a lambic-type beer, but I've done lots of strong
Belgian-style ales. These days I'm using 120 grams of corn sugar for a
5 gallon batch. This is about 7/8 of a cup. Whenever possible I'm
also adding extra yeast at bottling, as most of these beers are in the
1.070 range and up. Basically this just entails making an additional 1
pint starter and tossing it into the bottling bucket.
This results in a rapid, pretty agressive carbonation level. So far no
bottles have gone nuclear, but I'm not offering any warranties. You
can try me at this address in 1 month to see if I'm still alive (that
is, if you're nervous!)
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 93 09:09:30 PST
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Boon's Brett Concentration
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
>In C.R. Saikley's post about Boon's techniques, he mentions:
>>Frank's fermentation involves 10 different strains of Brettanomyces,
>>reaching a maximum concentration of 0.3-0.4 cells/ml.
> If Brett dominates in older lambics, how can this be with .3-.4
>cells/mL? That would make 5700 to 7600 cells per 5 gallon batch. Should
>there not be an exponential in there? Like .3-.4 * 10^6 cells/mL, or at
>least .3-.4 * 10^3. 5700 yeast cells would occupy, at a rough guestimate,
>.1 cc of volume in a 5 gallon batch. Hard to see how this could dominate,
>even over time.
Yes there should be an exponent there. I believe 10^6, but I'll check
my notes when I get home tonite.
CR
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1993 19:23:19 EST
From: Matthew Evans <matt at cadif.cornell.edu>
Subject: Concentrated Fruit Extracts
I just got the catalog today from a company
called HopTech. Mostly they just sell hops,
but they did have some concentrated fruit
extracts. They are sold in four ounce bottles
and contain enough "stuff" to make about 15
gallons of fruit beer. They don't have any
sugars in them, so you add them to the beer
right before bottling. Anyone ever heard of
this stuff or tried it yet. It is a lot
cheaper than the real fruit itself, so it would
be a good cost savings, but the question is,
will it be good to taste?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 7:40:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fruit Concentrates
Matthew Evans wrote:
% I just got the catalog today from a company
% called HopTech. Mostly they just sell hops,
% but they did have some concentrated fruit
% extracts. They are sold in four ounce bottles
% and contain enough "stuff" to make about 15
% gallons of fruit beer. They don't have any
% sugars in them, so you add them to the beer
% right before bottling. Anyone ever heard of
% this stuff or tried it yet. It is a lot
% cheaper than the real fruit itself, so it would
% be a good cost savings, but the question is,
% will it be good to taste?
I recently bottled a pure culture lambic-style ale using the Hoptech raspberry
and used 4 ounces. It is still not enough to get the great raspberry nose of
Liefmanns or Boons framboise. I think two bottles would be a better choice for
both aroma and flavor.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 11:37:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Saison anyone?
Does anyone have a clue how to formulate a saison?
It was a favorite of mine when I lived in Belgian.
The only one I've tasted recently is DuPont. I've cultured
the dregs and just plated them out today. When tasting DuPont
I noticed a lingering non-hop bitterness, which I atribute to
bitter orange peel. It's highly carbonated and on the sweet
side, but has a . . . we'll I don't how to describe it . . .
Saison flavor. Anyway my first guess at a recipe would be
something like:
+Pils malt for OG= 1.048?
+Noble hops for low bitterness say 10 BU for 5 gals
+Jackson says dry hop. I didn't notice dry hop flavor in DuPont.
Perhaps it's at a low level. Suggestions?
+Bitter orange peel
+Long boil to get medium amber color
+Small amount of crystal malt?
+DuPont culture.
This is a strawman so hack away. Oh I've tried Rajotte's recipe--like
his other's I've tried, way off the mark.
Sante' WAK
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1993 10:53:25 -0600 (CST)
From: BAN5845 at tntech.edu
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #229 (December 07, 1993)
Re: Matthew Evans' question about fruit extracts... I tried to make a Straw-
berry lambik with a strawberry extract (4oz. bottle) meant for soda. The
extract left a very astringent taste. After 6 mos. though this astringency
mellowed somewhat, but it was still discernable. I suggest buying one and
mixing a sample with some water first. If it doesn't taste good then it
probably won't be any good foryour beer.
Brian Nummer
Aeonbra''u Co.
ban5845 at TnTech.edu
------------------------------
Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by SERV02.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
From: John_Shepardson.esh at QMAIL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (John Shepardson)
Subject: Re: Lambic Questions
I asked this question on Rec.Crafts.Brewing, but have not received a
reply, so I'll try it here (where it belongs).l
Here are a couple of questions for you lambic wizards out there. I found
Guinard's book lacking a few specifics.
1. What is the difference in brettanomyces bruxellensis and brettanomyces
lambicus? Guinard says "Their respective contributions to the flavor of
lambic beers is different" but not how they are different. Would it be
a good idea to use both?
2. How do you prepare and pitch Brettanomyces and Pediococcus. One
might consider culturing them up just like a yeast starter, but my
experiences with bacterial infections tell me that more is involved.
For instance the presence of Oxygen will promote the Pediococcus, and
pitching too much Pediococcus might lead to ropiness. Do you introduce
oxygen intentionally or minimize it? I would guess that inadequate
control of these factors could lead to a ruined lambic. Or are they
bulletproof?
Thanks in advance for the replies.
John Shepardson | A pint a day is all I need for breakfast.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 93 10:03:01 +0100
From: dejonge at tekserv.geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: Saisons
Bill Kitch wrote:
> Does anyone have a clue how to formulate a saison?
> [snip]
>
>something like:
> +Pils malt for OG= 1.048?
> +Noble hops for low bitterness say 10 BU for 5 gals
> +Jackson says dry hop. I didn't notice dry hop flavor in DuPont.
> Perhaps it's at a low level. Suggestions?
> +Bitter orange peel
> +Long boil to get medium amber color
> +Small amount of crystal malt?
> +DuPont culture.
I haven't brewed any saisons yet, but I plan to make one soon
In the reports of the 8th open dutch homebrew contest I found
one (prize-winning) recipe.
(by Ron van Hees and Gerard v.d. Meeren):
(50 litre batch)
5 kg Medium acidic malt [this is a literal translation of 'zure mout',
it is a malt that is germinated at high temps
for a long time, perhaps 'overmodified'? I know
only one malting mill that sells this]
2 kg Munich malt (27 EBC)
2 kg Pilsner malt (3 EBC)
Extremely long infusion mash:
45 min at 48C, 5 hours! at 65C, overnight at 75-60 C
[sounds like sour mashing to me, I think traditional saisons should have
a lactic bacteria fermentation, but apparently this works also]
Hopped with Challenger bittering and Hallertau+Saaz finishing hops,
about 38 IBU
Dry ale yeast
I'm not sure how this comes out, but it has been positively reviewed by
a number of people that must know something about beer (brewers from La Trappe,
La Chouffe, and St. Christoffel amongst others).
The style guide-lines from this contest shows the following remarks for
saisons:
Pilsner malt 40-95%
Pale malt no
Munich malt 5-20%
Caramel malt <10%
Chrystal malt no
Wheat malt <30%
Oats <5%
Saisons with a 1g/l addition of Coreander score slightly higher
Goldings and Saaz hops are valued positively, Northern Brewer negatively
[I realise that this only reflects the judges preferences, so your mileage
may vary]
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Marc de Jonge dejonge at geof.ruu.nl
Utrecht University, Geophysics dept, Utrecht, the Netherlands
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 10:21:17 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Toward a saison recipe
Bill Kitch, who will pioneer American saison brewing or die, :-) writes:
>>to formulate a saison?
>>something like:
>> +Pils malt for OG= 1.048?
>> +Noble hops for low bitterness say 10 BU for 5 gals
>> +Jackson says dry hop. I didn't notice dry hop flavor in DuPont.
>> Perhaps it's at a low level. Suggestions?
>> +Bitter orange peel
>> +Long boil to get medium amber color
>> +Small amount of crystal malt?
>> +DuPont culture.
I'd say definitely shoot for 1.060. Anything less than that
is a light beer in Belgium. I'd also go for 18 IBUs, and even some
flavoring hops in small quantity (1/2 oz for 10-15 minutes). And
oxygenate the hell out of it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 12:26:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Pitching, Aeration & neat gizmo
This is not strictly limited to Belgian ales, but I didn't feel like
dealing w/HBD on this issue.
Since most of my Belgian ale have OG > 1.060 I've been concerned about
proper aeration of the cooled wort. My technique is to use an aspirator
at the end of syphon when transfering from kettle to fermenter. I pitch
a culuture whose final total volume (green beer and yeast slurry) is 500ml.
With this technique I get visible krausen in < 12 hrs (even with my 1.087
triple).
I haven't noted especially high terminal gravities. I've had a few
problems that may be related to underpitching or poor aeration. The last
double I did using Affligem yeast had the strongest banana nose & taste
I've ever experienced. This was at bottling, haven't tasted since. Also
when I used Texas white yeast in my white beer it was very slow to ferment.
Questions are: Does this sound like adequate areation and/or pitching
rates? If not what will I gain with more/better aeration and/or pitching?
On the neat gizmo subject: When in Chicago recently I visted a scientific
surplus place and found a stainless steel sintered "stone" for $1.50. I
bought one even though I don't currently use the aquarium pump aeration
system. Couldn't pass up a autoclavable aeration "stone". Those of you in
the Windy city will probably know the store--I forgot it's name. It's
about 5000 N on Milwakee.
Sante' WAK
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 08:38:07 -0600 (CST)
From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead)
Subject: Le Fruit Defendu
Can anyone out there give me some guidelines or a recipe for "Le Fruit
Defendu"? It's a spicy dark ale flavored with coriander, and my
personal favorite Belgian beer.
Thanks alot!
Ted
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 11:27:48 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Pitching, Aeration & neat gizmo
The "texas white yeast" is very sluggish below about 22C. At 15C,
according to Celis "she goes to sleep". Certainly my experience. I
bottled my white 8 gravity points above terminal because of this. It
makes a really nice head!
=S
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 10:45:52 CST
From: stevie at spss.com
Subject: Neat Gizmo Location, Chicago
Bill Kitch (Mr. Saison) wrote last time:
> On the neat gizmo subject: When in Chicago recently I visted a scientific
> surplus place and found a stainless steel sintered "stone" for $1.50. I
> bought one even though I don't currently use the aquarium pump aeration
> system. Couldn't pass up a autoclavable aeration "stone". Those of you in
> the Windy city will probably know the store--I forgot it's name. It's
> about 5000 N on Milwakee.
Actually, it's 5696 N Northwest Highway, Chicago, and the name is American
Science Center. It's a Beer Geek Paradise(tm).
Steve Hamburg (stevie at spss.com)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 14:01:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Mary A. Valante" <mav6 at psu.edu>
Subject: unsubscribe
We are going on vacation for the holidays. Please unsubcribe us until
further notice.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 19:33:46 -0800
From: Tony_Quinn at f1004.n202.z1.fidonet.org
Subject: San Diego Wasteland
Well, after a year of looking, I found Lambics in San Diego- for those
of you who are interested, Cost Plus Imports has a reasonable supply
of Lindy's -- It may have been a mistake though. I came home and the
Kriek/Framb. were missing. My wife mentioned that even though she
didn't like beer, that those two were "pretty good"
Damn - back to the store tommorrow. Will keep you in the loop on the
great lambic caper. Anyone knowing of any other sources, I'd be
interested in corresponding.
Please god, deliver me from this city where jalapenno beer is
considered the pinnacle of the brewers art.
TATA
Tony p.s. Cost Plus Imports is in the Grossmont Center for you
parched
San Diego types.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 11:41:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Special B malt
I have been using De Wolf's Special B in a lot of darker abbey ales.
I've used as much as 5% of the grain bill. I begining to believe I
been using way too much of this grain. In my last two doubles I've
had a sort of heavy handed sweetness that I'd like to tone down. I
think the Special B may be the source, but with all the flavor in these
beers it's hard to track down. Can other comment on their use/experience
with Special B?
Joyeaux Noel, WAK
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1993 08:54:35 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Special B
> From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
>
> I have been using De Wolf's Special B in a lot of darker abbey ales.
> I've used as much as 5% of the grain bill. I begining to believe I
> been using way too much of this grain. In my last two doubles I've
> had a sort of heavy handed sweetness that I'd like to tone down. I
> think the Special B may be the source, but with all the flavor in these
> beers it's hard to track down. Can other comment on their use/experience
> with Special B?
>
I believe the Special B is a real gem, but it is a precise tool and easy
to overdo. In my most successful abbeybier, I used it in conjunction
with some dark candi sugar. In direct contradiction to the AHA and
Pierre Rajotte, I'd say, incidentally, that color is NOT the product of
dark candi sugar (flavor, yes, but...) -- and I believe Phil Seitz will
bear me out on this.
At any rate, I used .25 lb of Special B in a 5-gallon, 1.078 beer and
got plenty of color. Any more, in fact, would have spoiled the effect.
I don't know that "sweetness" is the exact word I would use to describe
the contribution of Special B. Dave Logsdon refers to it as "raisiny",
and I think this is closer to the truth. John Harris used it in his
Doppelbock at the Full Sail Brewery at the River (brewpub) and produced
one of the most authentic versions I've tasted. There is definitely a
note contributed by the Special B that is lacking from most caramel
malts, almost a sharp edge.
I mention the AHA's definitions up there, and I have to strongly
disagree with something Mike Sharp said awhile back, in reference to the
mythical Bay Area Faux-Belgian Tasting. Mike seems to think that the
AHA has got a handle on the non-lambic Belgian styles and that the
judging of them isn't a problem. I'll grant you that at the final round
there was a least one intelligent judge on the panel that I saw, but it
seems clear to me from reading the definitions of style for the 1994
competition that they're as far astray as ever. If I can assume that
the judges will use those "guidelines" as rules, as they usually do, I
won't be sending any of my efforts to the national -- I'll probably get
the sort of intelligent response I got at the Dixie Cup when two judges
were offended that my abbey-bier was "fruity": "This would be a really
good beer if it wasn't fruity." As my kids say, "Doi."
- --Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 93 12:53 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Special B/Lactobacillus growth
WAK writes:
>I have been using De Wolf's Special B in a lot of darker abbey ales.
>I've used as much as 5% of the grain bill. I begining to believe I
>been using way too much of this grain. In my last two doubles I've
>had a sort of heavy handed sweetness that I'd like to tone down. I
>think the Special B may be the source, but with all the flavor in these
>beers it's hard to track down. Can other comment on their use/experience
>with Special B?
Yes, I agree it is way too much -- I suggest that the heavy-handed sweetness
is indeed from the Special B. It also can add a bit of a burnt flavor/aroma
when used in large amounts (I suspect, from inspection, that it probably
stands for Special Blend, and is a mixture of light and very dark crystal
malts).
*******************
Yesterday, I was reading Narziss' article in the latest Zymurgy (for the
third time -- boy, anybody else think that perhaps English is the good
doctor's second language?) and ran across the statement that 1 mg of
Alpha Acids per liter of beer is enough to kill lactobacillus. I believe
this equates to "1 IBU is enough to kill lactobacillus." Does anyone have
any data on this? Mike, have you tried any tests to confirm this?
My gut feeling is that it's wishfull thinking. If it was true,
lactobacillus would not be a factor at all in brewing and we all know it
is. Is my math wrong? Am I missing something?
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 09:58:23 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #236 (December 22, 1993)
Jeff Frane writes:
> I mention the AHA's definitions up there, and I have to strongly
> disagree with something Mike Sharp said awhile back, in reference to the
> mythical Bay Area Faux-Belgian Tasting. Mike seems to think that the
> AHA has got a handle on the non-lambic Belgian styles and that the
> judging of them isn't a problem. I'll grant you that at the final round
> there was a least one intelligent judge on the panel that I saw, but it
> seems clear to me from reading the definitions of style for the 1994
> competition that they're as far astray as ever.
hmmm....
oh well.
So with all of the commercial examples available the judges still have
their (in general) heads up their asses???
Al writes:
> Yesterday, I was reading Narziss' article in the latest Zymurgy (for the
> third time -- boy, anybody else think that perhaps English is the good
> doctor's second language?) and ran across the statement that 1 mg of
> Alpha Acids per liter of beer is enough to kill lactobacillus. I believe
> this equates to "1 IBU is enough to kill lactobacillus." Does anyone have
> any data on this? Mike, have you tried any tests to confirm this?
> My gut feeling is that it's wishfull thinking. If it was true,
> lactobacillus would not be a factor at all in brewing and we all know it
> is. Is my math wrong? Am I missing something?
There are some lactobacilli that are hop tollerant. My general impression
is that most aren't (but this may be incorrect). Perhaps the article
is refering to a similar belief of the majority being intollerant?
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 10:58:36 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Belgians and Bacteria
% I mention the AHA's definitions up there, and I have to strongly
% disagree with something Mike Sharp said awhile back, in reference to the
% mythical Bay Area Faux-Belgian Tasting. Mike seems to think that the
% AHA has got a handle on the non-lambic Belgian styles and that the
% judging of them isn't a problem. I'll grant you that at the final round
% there was a least one intelligent judge on the panel that I saw, but it
% seems clear to me from reading the definitions of style for the 1994
% competition that they're as far astray as ever. If I can assume that
% the judges will use those "guidelines" as rules, as they usually do, I
% won't be sending any of my efforts to the national -- I'll probably get
% the sort of intelligent response I got at the Dixie Cup when two judges
% were offended that my abbey-bier was "fruity": "This would be a really
% good beer if it wasn't fruity." As my kids say, "Doi."
%
% - --Jeff
%
Not to be a beavis but aren't you on the AHA advisory board. But I guess the
AHA doesn't listen? I suggest that all potential judges get a stamp card that
they get stmap after each Chimay, Duvel etc. and after the card is completely
punched (~100) then they can be a judge :-)
% *******************
% Yesterday, I was reading Narziss' article in the latest Zymurgy (for the
% third time -- boy, anybody else think that perhaps English is the good
% doctor's second language?) and ran across the statement that 1 mg of
% Alpha Acids per liter of beer is enough to kill lactobacillus. I believe
% this equates to "1 IBU is enough to kill lactobacillus." Does anyone have
% any data on this? Mike, have you tried any tests to confirm this?
% My gut feeling is that it's wishfull thinking. If it was true,
% lactobacillus would not be a factor at all in brewing and we all know it
% is. Is my math wrong? Am I missing something?
%
% Al.
I don't have any data but Hoptech is one source of pure iso-alha acids. One
could buy some form them or another source and do the experiment. I have the
lactobaccillus. anyone have pure alpha acids?
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 10:34:04 PST
From: art at art.md.interlink.com
Subject: archives
I've been trying to obtain lambic archives via netlibd and have only received
l.0001 despite numerous requests. Does anybody have an idea how to obtain
them? Are they available for anonymous ftp?
Thanks in advance.
Art Tumolo
art at leo.md.interlink.com
------------------------------
Date: 22 Dec 1993 10:30:11 -0800
From: "Larry Lynch-Freshner" <Larry_Lynch-Freshner at taligent.com>
Subject: AHA & Abbies
AHA & Abbies
In the last issue, Jeff Frane complaned about some judges astute comments on
his abbey beer. I have to concur. I entered a Dubbel into the California
State Comp, where it didn't get past the pre-judging. The comments? 'Fruity',
'Estery', and get this: 'Phenolic'. I kept reading the judging sheets, saying
to myself, 'Yeah, so what's your point?' The AHA does have a bias towards
strong beers, but that doesn't mean the Belgian variety is well known.
Larry
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 16:17:18 EST
From: Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name <mstickle at lvh.com>
Subject: Boon Framboise '86
I was in Washington D.C. last week and there is a bar there called The
Brickskeller which has over 500 beers on the menu. The had a little
flyer attached discribing new additions. One was the Frank Boon 1986
Framboise which they said was a treu "mariage parfait" even though the
label didn't indicate "mariage parfait". The price was $19.50 for a
750ml bottle! Two questions: does a true mariage parfait have this
information on the label and isn't this price steep even for a bar? TIA.
P.S. I couldn't bring myself to spend that much on a beer I had no idea
how good it was.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 10:16:55 MST
From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: mariage parfait
Somebody mentioned mariage parfait on the list yesterday. (aargh...
I already deleted it). I have heard some rumors about some 1985
Boon products hitting The Wine Company in denver at a price of
about $9.50 for a 750 ml. So doubling the price in a restauraunt
(D.C.'s Brickskeller) is about what you should expect. Look to your
friendly retailer who sells Vanberg & DeWulf (sp?) products.
They may order you some.
(The retailer may not know they are carrying VanBerrg $ DeWulf.
Loof for the importer on the label, or products unique to them
like Boon, Saison Dupont, Affiglem, Blanche de Burges? (some wit... might
be this one),...)
aaron
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1993 09:30:25 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: More Whining and Happy Holidays
>
Mike Sharp writes:
> hmmm....
> oh well.
> So with all of the commercial examples available the judges still have
> their (in general) heads up their asses???
>
Jim Liddil writes:
>
> Not to be a beavis but aren't you on the AHA advisory board. But I guess the
> AHA doesn't listen? I suggest that all potential judges get a stamp card that
> they get stmap after each Chimay, Duvel etc. and after the card is completely
> punched (~100) then they can be a judge :-)
>
Larry Lynch-Freshner writes
> AHA & Abbies
> In the last issue, Jeff Frane complaned about some judges astute comments on
> his abbey beer. I have to concur. I entered a Dubbel into the California
> State Comp, where it didn't get past the pre-judging. The comments? 'Fruity',
> 'Estery', and get this: 'Phenolic'. I kept reading the judging sheets, saying
> to myself, 'Yeah, so what's your point?' The AHA does have a bias towards
> strong beers, but that doesn't mean the Belgian variety is well known.
>
Being on the AHA Board of Advisors is no guarantee that the AHA will
listen to anything you say, and I am *not* involved in the NHCC
decisions at any rate. There was a lively discussion at this year's
board meeting, however, about developing a sort of Qualification (much
as Jim Liddil suggests) that would be earned in addition the BJCP
certification. Although we're still not clear *how* it would work,
judges would need to demonstrate a particular knowledge (and, to my
thinking, palate) in a beerstyle, far beyond what is tested on the BJCP
exam. These people would then be sought out by competition coordiantors
to sit on that beerstyle's panel.
The problem, of course, is determining what qualifies them. As Mike
says, even with readily-available commercial examples judges still don't
seem to have a handle on many beerstyles. Part of the problem, too, is
that the AHA descriptions don't sound much like the beers, at least to
me. There was also a pretty lively discussion at the meeting of
coordinators' need to stress that these are *guidelines* and that a
too-rigid adherence to them is wrong.
It sounds as though some of the same judges Larry ran into in California
were hanging out in Texas. Ah, well, at least I can drink the stuff
myself! Merry Christmas one and all!
- --Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1993 12:28:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Special
>Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1993 08:54:35 -0800 (PST)
>From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
>Subject: Re: Special B
>
>> From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
>>
>> I have been using De Wolf's Special B in a lot of darker abbey ales.
>> I've used as much as 5% of the grain bill. I begining to believe I
>> been using way too much of this grain. In my last two doubles I've
>> had a sort of heavy handed sweetness that I'd like to tone down. I
>> think the Special B may be the source, but with all the flavor in these
>> beers it's hard to track down. Can other comment on their use/experience
>> with Special B?
>>
>I believe the Special B is a real gem, but it is a precise tool and easy
>to overdo. In my most successful abbeybier, I used it in conjunction
>with some dark candi sugar. In direct contradiction to the AHA and
>Pierre Rajotte, I'd say, incidentally, that color is NOT the product of
>dark candi sugar (flavor, yes, but...) -- and I believe Phil Seitz will
>bear me out on this.
>
>At any rate, I used .25 lb of Special B in a 5-gallon, 1.078 beer and
>got plenty of color. Any more, in fact, would have spoiled the effect.
>I don't know that "sweetness" is the exact word I would use to describe
>the contribution of Special B. Dave Logsdon refers to it as "raisiny",
>and I think this is closer to the truth. John Harris used it in his
>Doppelbock at the Full Sail Brewery at the River (brewpub) and produced
>one of the most authentic versions I've tasted. There is definitely a
>note contributed by the Special B that is lacking from most caramel
>malts, almost a sharp edge.
Thanks Jeff! Raisiny, that's it! I couldn't think of a good description
for that special B flavor. It definetly has a "sharp edge" as you describe,
"heavy handed" was all I could come up with a few days ago. I also agree
w/Al K. comment "It also can add a bit of a burnt flavor/aroma when used
in large amounts".
Thanks for the help. Funny how things become obvious after someone else
says "yeah that just what I saw." :)
Joyeaux Noel, WAK
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1993 12:28:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Judging Belgian Ales
With all the horror stories about judges and Abbey ales I have to relate
one good experience. At a local Austin competition (Hill Country
Brew-ha-ha). I entered a double and a triple. Because it was a small
competition, all the stong ales, Belgian, British, Scottish, were judged
in the same catagory. My beers would have been identified to the judges
only as strong Belgian ales.
The judges all noted the high ester levels and fruitness of the beers and
commented on their appropriateness for the style. The double was one of
the too-much-special-B brew I mentioned a few days ago. The judges also
noted these flavors (I believe) with the ubiquitous "interesting flavor"
comment. The triple was cleary identified by the judges as such and won
the catagory! (A little Xmas time pat on my own back). Anyway there are
a few judges out there who at least know that a blonde high gravity Belgian
ale is probably a triple and should be estery and fruity.
Sante' WAK
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 13:08:29 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM
Subject: F. Boon Mariage Parfait
Hi,
I thought you folks would want to know ----
I just talked to Don Feinberg & the '86 F. Boon Mariage Parfait is here!!
Unfortunately there are (where?) only 200 cases (6x750ml/case).
The labeling for this year is new & more upscale from the old red/black
labels of the past. You can easily identify this from the rest of the
line by the 1986 vintage labeling & the bottle size (750ml).
The new label doesn't say 'Mariage Parfait' in big letters like the past
bottlings of this product so look for the '1986 vintage' on the top
of the label. Don't freak out when you don't seen significant sediment.
I'm told that this batch (as well as others) was first settled with
isinglass (sp?) and then transfered off the 'crud' before bottling.
This batch, until recently, has been casked since '86 and this is a
recent bottling. Hence its different appearance (labeling, etc.)
When last I had this product (~1 year ago) it was _wonderful_. Its quite
a traditional lambic but without the extreme hashness of others (like
Cantillon). Its similar (in general profile excluding the fruit) to
last year's Hansen's kriek.
Don promisses he'll bring in more vintages in the first quarter of '94.
I'll be sending Don a Christmas card (ok, so I'm late -- call it a holiday
card) thanking him for this effort. Certainly none of the usual distributors
would go to the trouble of bringing in a product such as this. I hope the
rest of you join me in thanking Don for his effort.
[52 Pioneer Rd, Cooperstown, NY 13326]
[no, I'm not getting paid to do this either 8-) ]
on other (related fronts) ---
The rumor mill says that Don's distributor in Sacramento (name?) will
have product in the first quarter of '94. Apparently its taken a while
to get this sorted out due to the distributor being bought/merging with
another, etc.
The rumor mill also says that the Belgian beers across America thing is
still going to happen. I just wish it would happen a bit quicker.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 13:23:53 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM
Subject: survey time
Hi again,
Is anyone out there brewing?? Someone must be. Tell us about it.
Here is my contribution:
I've got two casks (10g + 15g) of young lambic aging in
my garage near the water heater. (I can do that in CA)
They where casked in March & have been working happily
since. Well, except for their rather traumatic trip to
CA in July.
I'm still extracting _lots_ of oak character from my casks,
but nothing like the oak-branch-beer of the first baches.
I'm rather disappointed by the lack of (perceived) acidity
in this batch, but the rest of the funky aromas are there.
I'm currently contemplating making a batch of extract wheat
beer, pitching just pedio, letting it work & then topping
up the casks. (I'm fairly sure I overdid the Brett starter
& it got a hold before the pedio)
The original formulation for this batch was as a 60/40 mix
of pale 2-row and wheat flakes. I have no recollection of
the mash & I don't have my notes here. I do remember only
getting a 45 minute boil due to my propane running out.
The cultures originally pitched are the same as what is now
being sold through G.W.Kent. I'll have to dig around for
the specifics of this batch if anyone cares.
IMHO, this batch still needs a lot of time if its to be a gueuze.
It may do well now if I fruited it. A kriek would work particularly
well. I don't consider its lack of acidic harshness a negative.
This batch is just much softer than the previous batches so I
noticed it. This is more in line with the soft acidity of F. Boon's
products.
I think I'll just forget about this for a few more months & see what
it turns into.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1993 11:40:45 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Esters in Belgian Tripels
Bill Kitch writes:
> Subject: Judging Belgian Ales
>
> The judges all noted the high ester levels and fruitness of the beers and
> commented on their appropriateness for the style. The double was one of
> the too-much-special-B brew I mentioned a few days ago. The judges also
> noted these flavors (I believe) with the ubiquitous "interesting flavor"
> comment. The triple was cleary identified by the judges as such and won
> the catagory! (A little Xmas time pat on my own back). Anyway there are
> a few judges out there who at least know that a blonde high gravity Belgian
> ale is probably a triple and should be estery and fruity.
Maybe I should be posting this to the judge digest, but my question is
what level of esters should one try to obtain in a homebrewed tripel?
My tasting experience is limited to the St. Paul and Affligem versions,
both of which have a moderate level of esters and fruitiness. I recently
juddged this style in a competition and we ran across one which had
too many bubblegum esters, but I thought it was still recognizable as
a tripel and gave it a score in the low to mid 30s. However the other
judges - one who is also National and the other and Apprentice - scored
it below 25 and I was forced to reduce my score to be within 7 points.
They weren't expecting such a strong ester level while I thought it
was required for the style. Who was right?
Mike Sharp asks if anyone has been brewing.
Yes! I have a pKriek experiment going right now. Last summer I brewed
a cherry wit which turned out to be a little too sour. That's a story
in itself - I think lactobacillis is needed to get the dryness of a
true Belgian Wit, but the lactic acid contribution is difficult to
control. I decided to blend 3 gallons of this with 3.5 gallons of wort
from a standard lambic mash, and pitch starters of S cerevesiae (the
Wyeast Belgian White), and the Pediococcus and Brettanomyces cultures
that Mike so graciously supplies through G.W. Kent. It's been going
almost a month now and I'll probably add some more cherries this
summer. I'll taste it when I get back from holidays and see how
it's developing. I also have a carboy of wit that is fermenting very
slowly. As someone pointed out, the Wyeast Belgian White strain is
virtually inactive below 60 F and sluggish below 70 F, so the gravity
is only dropping a few points a day in our 68 F house :-(
Cheers,
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1993 11:02:31 -0600
From: Todd Enders - WD0BCI <enders at plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: White Beer -- A Progress Report.
After a summer and fall experimenting with White beer brewing, I've
managed to make good progress toward brewing one of high quality without the
necessity of esoteric ingredients (like bitter orange peel). My brewing notes
from the best effort to date follow below, but first some comments...
Oats (IMHO) definately have a place in a white. The silkiness and
smoothness it contributes is quite welcome, and to me, contributes to the
desired refreshing character of the beer.
One should use whole coriander seed, freshly crushed at brewing time. The
pre-ground spice is a pale image of the whole spice. In a brew where
coriander is a large part of the flavour, it pays to use the most flavourful
spice available.
I'm pretty well convinced that bitter orange peel isn't absolutely
necessary. I've had reasonable success substituting a 50/50 mix of table
orange and lemon zest (fresh, of course). This seems to give a subtle citrus
bitterness without being too orangey.
While I haven't managed to brew a white (yet!) that would make Pierre
Celis quake in his boots, I have come up with a brew that (in the opinion of
some knowledgable people who have sampled it) will stand up well against
a goodly number of Belgian brewed commercial whites. Here are the particulars:
3.75# US 2-row
3.75# Raw wheat (crushed fine)
0.5# Rolled oats
0.75 oz. Whole coriander (crushed)
Zest from two oranges and 2 lemons
1.0 oz. 3.1% alpha Saaz hops
Recultured Hoegaarten yeast
Mash in: 12 qt. water at 124F
Protein rest: 20 min. ea. at 124F, 128F, and 132F
Conversion rest: 30 min. at 161F
Mash out: 10 min. at 170F
Sparge: 5.5 gal. water at 168F, pH adjusted to 5.5 with 88% lactic acid.
Boil: 90 min.
Hops: 1 addition, 30 min. from end of boil
Coriander: 1 addition, 15 min. from end of boil
Peel: 1 addition, 10 min. from end of boil
OG: 1.046 (5.75 gal.) 5 Sep. 1993
Racked to secondary (11 Sep.) and added 0.25 oz. crushed coriander (1 Oct.)
FG: 1.011 (10 Oct.)
Added 88% lactic acid to taste at bottling (22 ml)
In retrospect, I'm somewhat dubious about putting coriander in the
secondary. In tasting an acidified hydrometer sample before adding the
coriander to the secondary, it was almost a dead ringer for Dentgem's Riva
Blanche. The dry coriandering did give the result a good coriander nose,
but it lost some of the bright coriander flavour it had beforehand. It is
still quite good, though.
Happy Holidays one and all!!!
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 93 15:04:34 EST
From: Jose Francisco Pereira Martins <AFRMART%BRUFSM.BITNET at VTBIT.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject: NEW YEAR!!!
Dear NET members
I wish you all a Christmas of peace and joy, and a very
successfull 1994.
Jose Martins
FELIZ NATAL!
FELIZ ANO NOVO!
(Sorry if I indulge in Brazilian-Portuguese!)
------------------------------Date: Sat, 25 Dec 93 16:09:16 -0400
From: "Phillip R. Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Various
1) White beer
I've had the pleasure of tasting Todd Ender's most recent white
beer, and I can say with no shame or hesitation that it was really
top-notch. I will definitely be trying to brew some more in the
not-too-distant future, and will be working from his recipe.
2) Triples
Fruitiness, no, but other esters maybe--particularly the
spicier ones. I'd even through some unusual phenols in. And as I
recall, Leffe Triple is quite agressively hopped, although this isn't
the general rule. I think that yeast selection is the critical factor,
and I've found that even some well informed judges (ahem!) seem to
mistake yeast aromas for hoppy ones.
3) Current projects
I'm still enamored of strong Belgian ales, and particularly
with the ones from the Binchoise and Achouffe breweries. Fortunately
the Chouffe yeast is a star perfomer, and is available from the Yeast
Culture Kit Company (strain A36) or from me I suppose (assuming you
provide a slant and return envelope). In any case, the last attempt in
this style took 3rd in the HOPS/BOPS (though I'll have to have a TALK
with BILL RIDGELY), and I'm hoping the next batch will be THE ONE.
Tentative recipe includes 1 lb caravienne with Belgian Pils malt to
1.080 and 15 IBU styrian goldings, plus 15 gr. whole coriander and the
same amount of sweet orange. Ferment at 62F.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 11:19:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Wheat in White Beer/Esters in Triple
re: white
In the white beer thread that we had going a couple of months ago there
was some discussion of what sort of wheat to use, low gluten soft white or
high gluten red wheat (durham?). As I recall the agruments for/against were
something like:
Soft white--The type of wheat traditionally grown in Europe. Probably
what would have been (is being?) used. More difficult to
find in U.S. Lower protein content of the two.
Hard red -- of U.S. origin. Higher protien content of the two. Easy to
find. What Celis professes to use.
I dilligently searched out soft white wheat following the
historical/traditional line of thought. One of the many things wrong w/my
white was no protien haze! 45% raw wheat and no haze! Anyway I'm
reconsidering the type of wheat and was wondering what others have used
and with what results? Todd?
*******
re: esters in triple
Scott B. asked about appropriateness of esters in triple after I mentioned
the "high esters" in a triple I brewed. In my *opinion* the triple style is
the cleanest of all the Belgian ales. When I typed "high ester levels" I
meant high wrt beer in general. Certainly within the Belgian styles, the
triple has a moderate ester level--nothing like some of the dark abbey ales
(e.g. Corsendonk brown). The light color and relatively light body (for a
high gravity beer) of the triple call for (I believe) moderation in esters,
fruityness, and any spicing added, otherwise the balance is off. Of course
these are just my opinions. As to whether or not I've got a good triple
recipe, I await the comments of Phil Seitz and Jim Busch.
Bonne Annee, WAK
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 09:52:42 -0600
From: Todd Enders - WD0BCI <enders at plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: re: Wheat in White Beer
Bill Kitch <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>In the white beer thread that we had going a couple of months ago there
>was some discussion of what sort of wheat to use, low gluten soft white or
>high gluten red wheat (durham?). As I recall the agruments for/against were
>something like:
> Soft white--The type of wheat traditionally grown in Europe. Probably
> what would have been (is being?) used. More difficult to
> find in U.S. Lower protein content of the two.
> Hard red -- of U.S. origin. Higher protien content of the two. Easy to
> find. What Celis professes to use.
>
The protein content of the various wheats breaks down something like this:
White Wheat: ~10-11% protein
Soft Red Winter Wheat: ~12-13% protein
Hard Red Winter Wheat: ~13-14% protein
Hard Red Spring Wheat: ~14-17% protein
Hard Amber Durum Wheat: ~15-17% protein
Note that protein content can vary with location, growing conditions,
specific strain, etc., etc. Durum, to the best of my knowlege, has not been
used in brewing, but finds it's way into pasta as semolina flour.
>I dilligently searched out soft white wheat following the
>historical/traditional line of thought. One of the many things wrong w/my
>white was no protien haze! 45% raw wheat and no haze! Anyway I'm
>reconsidering the type of wheat and was wondering what others have used
>and with what results? Todd?
>
I've had good success with Soft Red Winter wheat (12-13% protein), as
it is the lowest protein wheat available at the health food place I buy raw
grain at. At 47% of the grain bill, I get plenty of haze, but the transition
from clear to hazy happens quite abruptly. For example, putting a bottle in
the freezer for 30 min. leaves the beer clear, but at 45 min. it goes *real*
hazy. I haven't done a head-to-head chill-off with Celis to see what the
temperature difference is insofar as when they throw haze, but it *is* on my
list of things to do. :-)
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 11:48:08 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Wit beers, esters in triples
Bill Kitch writes:
> Subject: Wheat in White Beer/Esters in Triple
>
> I dilligently searched out soft white wheat following the
> historical/traditional line of thought. One of the many things wrong w/my
> white was no protien haze! 45% raw wheat and no haze! Anyway I'm
> reconsidering the type of wheat and was wondering what others have used
> and with what results? Todd?
I deliberately attempt to introduce a protein haze by doing a single step
protein rest at 125 F. This worked pretty well when I used the Wyeast
Belgian Ale yeast (#1214), but my latest batch with the "Texas White"
strain is crystal clear.
> Scott B. asked about appropriateness of esters in triple after I mentioned
> the "high esters" in a triple I brewed. In my *opinion* the triple style is
> the cleanest of all the Belgian ales. When I typed "high ester levels" I
> meant high wrt beer in general.
Since my last post, I did a little research ;-) I was fortunate enough to
find the La Trappe Double and Triple here in Vancouver, and a tasting
confirmed that the ester and phenolic levels are low for both of these
styles. The double had delicious chocolatey notes with as slight
nuttiness and was, IMHO, the better of the two. The triple was also
nice with a full body, sweet maltiness and an alcohol level of 8% by
volume that was well-masked.
Auf ein neues,
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 10:27:39 -0800
From: eurquhar at sfu.ca
Subject: Rodenbach/pitching times
Hello belgian beer lovers,
A member of the beer club that I belong to wants to brew a
Rodenbach clone and also lambics, a gueuze to start. Since I have never
even tasted or heard of Rodenbach I would appreciate some help. Is this
beer a lambic or a heavy abbey beer type. Are there recipes or even hints
as to what may provide a good 1st attempt ?
Re lambics and pitching times
What volume of brett starter is needed. 1:10 same as for pitching yeast or
is 1:50 a better pitching ratio and when ?
I only ask the moon I know.
Happy New Year/Bonne annee
Eric Urquhart (eurquhar at sfu.ca)
Centre for Pest Management,
Dept. of Biological Sciences
Simon Fraser University,
Burnaby , B.C. Canada V5A 1S6
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1993 16:38:26 -0500
From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: more on whites and p-lambics
Bill Kitch asks about choosing varieties of wheat where unmalted wheat is
called for in formulating recipes. For my wit I decided to go with flaked
wheat instead of wheat berries. Mainly, because it was my first all-grain
and I was very concerned about a stuck mash. For this reason, I also
limited the wheat content to about 30% rather than 45%.
I brewed this beer in August and still have some around. I feel that it
has aged very well. I was very pleased with it shortly after it was in the
bottle. However, the coriander was fairly strong and every time I would
begin to think about opening a second bottle, somewhere near the end of the
first, I would sense the gag reflex coming on. This, of course, was very
inhibitory of early consumption of the beer and so I let it sit, hoping
that some of the coriander would drop out in time for the local home brew
competition. It did. After about three weeks, the coriander flavor
mellowed and the gag reflex diminished. Around six weeks I felt good
enough about it to hand it out to friends with the qualification that I
would understand if they didn't like it. They always came back with very
positive comments, but which often included terms like "funky" or "weird".
I think people in this forum will understand my dissapointment when, due to
size limitations, this beer got bumped into the "wheat beer" category of
the local competition (seriously, had I even suspected that it would have
wound up in this category and not the "specialty" category, I would have
never entered it). Judging comments like, "Clove/phenolic aroma too strong
for category - overpowers other aromas." and "too spicy - need more
emphasis on fruity flavors..." seemed a little off the mark. I also
received the comment, " This beer would be a better spice beer - spice is
nice." Well at least we agree on one thing.
Well, maybe, a little less spice is even nicer, because it is a much
kinder, gentler beer than say 3 months ago. Concerning protein haze -
well, this is a crystal clear beer unless you allow the Hoegaarden yeast to
decant off of the bottom, which doesn't take much effort. This yeast,
though clearly very powdery during the primary, seems to settle out quite
readily in the bottle, but is easily disturbed. So I am relying on the
yeast to make it "white". I'd make this beer again, but with a few
improvements: more wheat, sour mash with pure lacto culture (hopefully),
less coriander (omit or cut back on amount added at the end of primary (1
tsp ground)). I think that the use of ground cardamom (1 tsp) in the
finish helped compensate for a piss-poor sour mash.
p-Lambic Survey
I started a p-lambic 10 days ago. This is my first and is, therefore,
based more on theory (?) than any practical experience.
3 lb Unmalted white spring wheat
3 lb 6-row (Briess)
3 lb English 2-row (M&F)
1 lb Pilsner malt (D&C)
0.5 lb Aromatic malt (D&C)
1 oz "Sweet" hops (appropriately mishandled by the local health food store).
Pitched together:
250 ml saturated starter Hoegaarden yeast
5 ml saturated starter S. Bayanus (EC-118)
40 ml Boon Gueuze starter (fed for about 1 month up to 40 ml)
5 ml pediococcus damnosus
Comments:
In spite of a heavy grain-bill, I ended up with a horrendous extraction and
a starting gravity of 1046 (relax, don't worry, I am still punishing myself
over this one). The wheat was crushed relatively fine and given a
saccharification rest of 158F (15 min) with 1 lb malt. The wheat/malt mix
was then boiled 30 min. This was added back to the mash, which was at
about 125F in a picnic cooler to bring the entire mash to the b-amylase
rest (15 min at 140F). Forty percent of the mash was pulled (thickest part)
and brought to a boil (15 min) and then added back to raise the temperature
to 158F where it rested for an hour (converted within 1/2 hour). Pulled 2
portions consecutively and boiled to raise temperature to 170F. Lautering
and sparging was surprisingly easy, about 50 minutes - recirculated about 2
gallons, but did not try to get it crystal clear. The boil was about 2
hours- reduced from nearly 8 gallons to 5 gallons. Hops were added for 1
hour.
Rationale:
Why 6 row? wanted more husk and enzymes because of wheat.
Why 2-row? could not bear to use all 6-row.
Why D&C pils? had it and was worried about poor extraction - I was right.
Why D&C aromatic? hmm...well, I noticed that Timmerman's has some color
and I wanted something that might contribute some sweetness that might be
tough to ferment out (good luck!). I think that this p-lambic will be
about the color of Timmerman's.
Why health food store hops? the next best thing to 3 year old hops?
Why pitch what I pitched and the way I picthed it? tough call...I liked
the idea of throwing them in together and letting nature take its course.
Besides, how could I have ever determined the appropriate timing for each
pitching? I chose Hoergaarden, because it is somewhat slow, but very
attenuative in the end. I threw in a small amount of S. bayanus as my wild
Saccharomyces yeast - hopefully this will confer some vinous qualities on
the brew, but not too much so. The Boon starter is quite a hodge-podge of
microbes: Brettanomyces and a couple of bacteria (lactos, enterics?) - no
pedios apparently. I pitched a small pedio culture so that I wouldn't have
to deal with it later. Basically, I chose this pitching schedule to
hopefully maximize some of the population dynamics that supposedly play out
in the life of a lambic. Emphasis was on the S. cerevisiae, but hopefully
some of the other things will get a good growth spurt before the nutrients
are too diminished. Others will continue after the Saccharomyces
populations have declined, of course. Kraeusen accumulation started after
about 36 hours (air temp between 65-70F). Still has Kraeusen after 10 days
and is emitting a sulfurous odor out of the airlock. We'll see...
Todd Gierman
Dept. of Microbiology
Duke University Medical Center
------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 10:01:01 -0700
Message-Id: <199312221701.KAA25422 at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
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Subject: Lambic Digest #236 (December 22, 1993)
Apparently-To: reallambic
Lambic Digest #236 Wed 22 December 1993
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Special B (Jeff Frane)
Special B/Lactobacillus growth (korz)
Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to:
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- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1993 08:54:35 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Special B
> From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
>
> I have been using De Wolf's Special B in a lot of darker abbey ales.
> I've used as much as 5% of the grain bill. I begining to believe I
> been using way too much of this grain. In my last two doubles I've
> had a sort of heavy handed sweetness that I'd like to tone down. I
> think the Special B may be the source, but with all the flavor in these
> beers it's hard to track down. Can other comment on their use/experience
> with Special B?
>
I believe the Special B is a real gem, but it is a precise tool and easy
to overdo. In my most successful abbeybier, I used it in conjunction
with some dark candi sugar. In direct contradiction to the AHA and
Pierre Rajotte, I'd say, incidentally, that color is NOT the product of
dark candi sugar (flavor, yes, but...) -- and I believe Phil Seitz will
bear me out on this.
At any rate, I used .25 lb of Special B in a 5-gallon, 1.078 beer and
got plenty of color. Any more, in fact, would have spoiled the effect.
I don't know that "sweetness" is the exact word I would use to describe
the contribution of Special B. Dave Logsdon refers to it as "raisiny",
and I think this is closer to the truth. John Harris used it in his
Doppelbock at the Full Sail Brewery at the River (brewpub) and produced
one of the most authentic versions I've tasted. There is definitely a
note contributed by the Special B that is lacking from most caramel
malts, almost a sharp edge.
I mention the AHA's definitions up there, and I have to strongly
disagree with something Mike Sharp said awhile back, in reference to the
mythical Bay Area Faux-Belgian Tasting. Mike seems to think that the
AHA has got a handle on the non-lambic Belgian styles and that the
judging of them isn't a problem. I'll grant you that at the final round
there was a least one intelligent judge on the panel that I saw, but it
seems clear to me from reading the definitions of style for the 1994
competition that they're as far astray as ever. If I can assume that
the judges will use those "guidelines" as rules, as they usually do, I
won't be sending any of my efforts to the national -- I'll probably get
the sort of intelligent response I got at the Dixie Cup when two judges
were offended that my abbey-bier was "fruity": "This would be a really
good beer if it wasn't fruity." As my kids say, "Doi."
- --Jeff
- ------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 93 12:53 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Special B/Lactobacillus growth
WAK writes:
>I have been using De Wolf's Special B in a lot of darker abbey ales.
>I've used as much as 5% of the grain bill. I begining to believe I
>been using way too much of this grain. In my last two doubles I've
>had a sort of heavy handed sweetness that I'd like to tone down. I
>think the Special B may be the source, but with all the flavor in these
>beers it's hard to track down. Can other comment on their use/experience
>with Special B?
Yes, I agree it is way too much -- I suggest that the heavy-handed sweetness
is indeed from the Special B. It also can add a bit of a burnt flavor/aroma
when used in large amounts (I suspect, from inspection, that it probably
stands for Special Blend, and is a mixture of light and very dark crystal
malts).
*******************
Yesterday, I was reading Narziss' article in the latest Zymurgy (for the
third time -- boy, anybody else think that perhaps English is the good
doctor's second language?) and ran across the statement that 1 mg of
Alpha Acids per liter of beer is enough to kill lactobacillus. I believe
this equates to "1 IBU is enough to kill lactobacillus." Does anyone have
any data on this? Mike, have you tried any tests to confirm this?
My gut feeling is that it's wishfull thinking. If it was true,
lactobacillus would not be a factor at all in brewing and we all know it
is. Is my math wrong? Am I missing something?
Al.
- ------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
- -------
'Are you SURE you wa BITNET at BRFUEL.BITNE 12/22/93 Lambic Digest #236 (December 2
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 93 09:37:49 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Still more on white beer haze
A while back I had done a white beer that included 50% raw wheat and
posted the recipe. The protein rest portion of the mash schedule was
as follows:
117F 20 minutes
122F 20 minutes
126F 20 minutes
Now, there's no question that a set of protein rests like these will
consume almost anything in the mash, including used crankcase oil,
mummified tissue, etc. However, my beers, too, came out too clear. I
therefore suspect that the above was overkill, and the next time I brew
one I'll try shortening the whole thing to leave IN some gummy
proteins. I suspect the idea is to find the minimum amount of time
needed to turn the whole gummy mess into a spargeable mash without
chewing up ALL the protein in the batch.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1993 14:05:10 -0500
From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: Rajotte and the importance of ingredients
Got the Rajotte book on Belgian Ales for Christmas (not bad for a wife who
is pregnant and bed-ridden, though had she been aware of the criticisms of
this book, she surely would have given me Eric Warner's book instead :-)).
I haven't read it cover to cover, but I can see how it's easy to criticize.
I suppose, though, if you don't subscribe to the Lambic Digest and you
don't have Michael Jackson's books, it's better than nothing :-). Well, I
am finding interesting bits of information in it.
>From reading the section about the Belgian brewmaster, I now gather that
candi sugar is, perhaps, the single most important ingredient in a Belgian
strong ale. So should we forget all about D&W malts and look for imported
candi sugar? I've looked but have not yet found the part of the book that
deals with some of the specialty malts that are available.
The other thing that seems to be missing is a well-rounded treatment of the
microbiology/fermentation conditions used at different breweries. Isn't
Rajotte "Mr. Culture at Home"? (I am not ridiculing...really I am not). I
think, though, that Rajotte's Belgian homebrewing philosophy is typified by
"get a Belgian yeast" (I am quoting him liberally here). I guess that it
is a bit disappointing to know that the dozen or so that I have collected
is overkill. I know that he is not saying that a single yeast is used
through out Belgium, but I am disappointed that he does not attempt to
address yeast issues more thoroughly. Michael Jackson is clearly much more
consciensious in this regard. Rajotte does give a profile of the Orval
fermentation (I believe), but it pretty much doesn't mesh with what Jackson
has said. So, who is right?
One thing that I did find particularly interesting is Rajotte's statement
about how breweries frequently share yeast cultures. He gives the example
of how a couple of small breweries just starting out received yeast from a
more established brewery just down the road. Rajotte contends that if you
were two come across two Belgian brews that you felt shared many flavor
characteristics, then you could probably conclude that they employ the same
yeast strain. Really? Well, okay, then how about this: On Christmas Day,
I opened a bottle of Grimbergen Triple (produced and imported by Maes -
oddly enough the sale of >6% aclohol brews are illegal in North Carolina,
yet this triple is being sold at a number of stores in this area - the sale
of Affligem Double has been banned because of its content). Anyway,
straight off, I recognized a vaguely familiar aroma/flavor - "Let me see
where have I tasted this before? Hmm...Affligem? no. Chimay? no. Boon? no.
Timmerman's? no. Saison DuPont? no. Duvel? hmmm ... Duvel? yes, Duvel!
But, that was awhile back, can't be sure. Oh, but wait! What's this?
Santa has left two bottles of Duvel in my stocking! (Bless, her soul!)
Yes, yes... I do think that Grimbergen Triple and Duvel share some
indescribable aroma/flavor feature."
So, my question is this: what is the likelihood of these two beers sharing
the same yeast culture at some point in their processing (i.e. primary or
secondary or bottle fermentations)? Maes boasts that Grimbergen Triple is
bottle fermented, but there seems to be nothing revivable in the bottle.
Anybody want to try to give a grist breakdown for Duvel (does it involve
wheat?)?
On another note...
I have a double that is conditioning in the bottle as we speak. Every now
and then I crack one just to see how things are progressing. Generally, I
am happy, but, of course, there a couple of sore points. Number one is
really poor (nonexistant) head retention. This beer is very carbonated and
produces a head during the pour, but this head is very loose, crackly and
fizzy (like the head on soda pop) and rapidly disappears. I would say that
this beer has residual sweetness and warmth, but not big body (fermented
from 1068 ->1012 with Chimay Blue yeast). The sweetness is surprising for
the degree of attenuation, I guess. In addition to D&W Pilsner malt, I
used 1 lb. Carapils and 1 lb. Aromatic and a 1/2 pound of turbanado sugar.
The yeast is still going strong so the sweetness is not a result of the
yeast conking out. Anyway, the lack of head really bothers me, because
this beer is really a nice color (just what I was shooting for), but it
would look even nicer with a thick head on it. So, my question is this:
Is there something about the Belgian malts that affects head retention?
They do seem to produce a somewhat oily wort. Does it have more to do with
their protein content?
I am interested in any thoughts/comments on these issues.
Thanks,
Todd Gierman
Dept. of Microbiology
Duke University Medical Center
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 93 09:09:22 -0400
From: "Phillip R. Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Todd Gierman asks about everything
Where to start?
1) There are no magic bullets, and candy sugar is candy sugar (unless
the stuff the brewers buy is vastly different from what's sold in
stores). Rajotte vastly overstates the coloring capacity of candy
sugar also. My feeling is that it's nice to use and authentic, but
neither I nor anybody who's had my beers can definitely state that it
contributes something identifiable. Certainly it's not in the same
taste league as hops, malt and yeast.
2) Belgian yeasts. Yes, "Get a Belgian yeast" is a vast
oversimplification. In seven beer-sodden trips to Belgium I have
noticed some marked simularities between various beers from different
breweries, and am convinced that most of the Category S beers are
brewed from a rather small pool of available yeasts. Grimbergen and
Duvel? It's certainly possible--after all, everybody's getting their
yeast from the same two or three yeast banks (there's one in
Louvain-la-Neuve, one in Leuven, and maybe one in Gent).
3) Yes, Warner's book is better from a technical standpoint, but I like
Rajotte's explanations of Belgian beer styles, which fits my experience
much better than Jacksons.
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