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Mead Lovers Digest #1315
Subject: Mead Lover's Digest #1315, 16 April 2007
From: mead-request@talisman.com
Mead Lover's Digest #1315 16 April 2007
Forum for Discussion of Mead Making and Consuming
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Stopping fermentation (Dick Dunn)
Re: Berry types for mead? (Dick Dunn)
Berry types for mead--reply ("Dave Edwards")
autolysis off-flavor (dan@geer.org)
Re: Need a sweeter yeast than 71B-2112 (Steven_Butcher@fpl.com)
Re: Potassium Sorbate (Marc Shapiro)
Re: Stopping fermentation ("Mike Faul")
Re: Subject: Berry types for mead? ("Shaggyman")
RE: Re: Need a sweeter yeast than 71B-2112 ("Jeff Tollefson")
(no subject) (AFDoty@aol.com)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Stopping fermentation
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:34:46 -0600
rdadams@smart.net (Dick Adams) wrote:
...
> canwebowlnow@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Here's my issue on this though. Is there a way to get the
> > same result without the sulfites. I'm allergic!!
>
> Yes. Siphon the yeast into a kettle and raise the temperature
> to 158F (70C) and keep it above 153.5F (67.5C) for 25 minutes.
> The textbook answer is 140F (60C) for 20 minutes. But higher
> and longer is my way of making sure dead is dead.
It's also a way to introduce off-flavors and remove more aromatics.
There are two problems here.
First, "More is Better" does not apply to heating mead (or other fermented
beverages)! There is a reason for the "textbook answers"--that they have
been worked out and tested to be sufficient. ANY heating will do -some-
damage, so the goal is (or should be) to do the minimal heating that
satisfies the need. An extra measure of heating doesn't make it safer,
only hurts the taste (by some small or large amount which you must
determine).
The nature of pasteurizing is that you can vary the temperature you use
(as long as it's high enough) against the time you hold that temperature.
The two "rule of thumb" points are that 20 minutes at 140 F, or just
reaching 160 F (no extended time required), are sufficient. For more
details, look into "pasteurization units"--PU's. (Note: the time/temp
relationship is severely nonlinear.)
Secondly, the goal in stabilizing the mead is NOT pasteurizing it! All
you're trying to do is kill the yeast. Yeast are far more vulnerable to
heat than are bacteria. I doubt that you'd even need to reach 140 for
an instant to do the job, but I don't have reliable info here.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Berry types for mead?
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 12:28:46 -0600
Arthur Torrey <arthur_torrey@comcast.net> asked about suggested berries
(other than raspberries and blackberries for which he already has a source).
With blackberries you need to limit the contact time with the fruit or
you'll pull too much tannin. Boysenberries (close kin) are also good in
mead; same caution about contact time.
I can almost say "I've never met a berry I didn't like" for mead...although
some of them present challenges.
> I have used commercial grocery store strawberries in the past, and found they
> weren't all that great for doing meads - Nothing "wrong" with them, just not
> that interesting, so I'm not sure that strawberries would be worth the
> effort. (Could be persuaded otherwise)
I've had good results with strawberries; I think the key was using good
ripe berries. Freezing them first will release more flavor. But think
ahead to the racking or skimming, because ripe fruit and especially if
frozen tends to break down into a messy mush.
One combination we like is strawberry/rhubarb. The rhubarb zings up the
flavor nicely compared to straight strawberry, but go easy on it. Another
combo, tending more to a rich-full character, is peach-strawberry.
> Stuff that looks interesting include Elderberries - How are they for mead?
> All I know about them is that Elton John sings high praise for the wine ;-}
Be sure you get a variety that produces blue-black berries. The red-berry
elderberry cultivars make people sick, and I don't know if the component
that causes it would carry into a mead. Other than that...I've made
elderberry melomel once and wasn't impressed enough to bother again.
Cranberries make a wonderful mead. The distinct flavor carries through,
and they're not hard to work with. Chop them very coarsely, just a few
pieces for each berry. (Insert obligatory joke about Thanksgiving and
instead of cranberry sauce, get sauced on cranberry.)
Blueberries are good, and sometimes mysteriously retain a sweet character
even though the mead finishes dry-by-the-hydrometer. Blueberries aren't
difficult plants -except- that you need very acidic soil. If you're in
a high-pH soil area, there is a trick of burying a bale of peat moss in
the ground and planting directly into it. (NAFEX might have elaboration
on this method.)
> I'd also be interested in currants, but the Nourse catalog says that Mass. has
> restrictions on planting currants and gooseberries - does anyone know the
> details on this? How do currants or gooseberries do for meads?
All of these (genus Ribes) can host the white pine blister rust and may be
banned in -some- areas where white pines grow, although the problem seems
not to be as serious as once thought since bans in a lot of areas have been
lifted in recent years.
Red and black currants both make good meads but if you use a lot of fruit
you'll get a -very- tart mead. Black currants have a "musky" character
which does carry through into the mead...depends on how "European" your
tastes are as to whether you'll like it. Currants are also a fertile
source of batch names: Currant Event, Currant Rage, Direct Currant,
Electric Currant (no! not what you're thinking and it probably wouldn't
be a good idea anyway). I did a red/black mixture once and called it
Alternated Currant. The plants are relatively easy to manage, moderate
size shrubs.
I've only ever used gooseberries in a mixed-berry blend, so I just know
they're not a bad idea; no idea how good they'd be by themselves. Diane
doesn't want them around the garden, so no recent experience.
Buffaloberry (Shepherdia argentea, or "silver buffaloberry" in our case)
is a native plant in our area, used for shelter/wind breaks and bird
habitat. It bears bright-red, small (pea-size) berries, tart but
interesting in flavor. I found that the mead didn't pick up much, if any,
of the color from the berry. It got some of the flavor and a nice touch
of tannin, result being more like a good dry white wine. Think carefully
before planting these, as they're a tall and somewhat awkward bush; they
sucker; they have -nasty- thorns (like Russian olive, of which they are
a family relative). But they're hardy, and if you do have room for a
good shelter belt they do the job.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Berry types for mead--reply
From: "Dave Edwards" <daveedwards@pronetisp.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:57:18 -0400
Subject: Berry types for mead?
From: Arthur Torrey <arthur_torrey@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:29:39 -0400
I'd also be interested in currants, but the Nourse catalog says that Mass.
has restrictions on planting currants and gooseberries - does anyone know
the details on this?
FYI:
Black Currants have been thought to be (in fact may actually be) a vector
for white pine blister rust, a disease that affects 5 needle pines-primarily
White Pine. In the early 1900's lumbering interests sought protection for
their trees by seeking laws banning the growing of Currants and gooseberries
in areas that had pine forests. There were laws at the Federal, state and
county level. The Federal laws were repealed in the 1960's, and New York
State repealed ours (somewhat reluctantly) in 2003. Many others, including
apparently Massachusetts, remain. I believe that Red Currants are not
involved in the disease transmission but are most likely covered in at least
some broadly written laws. There are hybrid black currants, rust resistant,
but under most remaining laws they are probably just "currants"
Dave Edwards
------------------------------
Subject: autolysis off-flavor
From: dan@geer.org
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:03:41 -0400
A variation on this theme: If I rack off at, say, 30 days
and a little bubbling is still present at 60 days, should
I rack again? I suppose this is a probability question:
is leaving the modicum of remaining yeast in place a
greater or lesser hazard than the risk of picking up
some mold or the like. After all, real wineries never
expose anything to air when racking kettle to kettle
and, well, I do -- like it or not.
- --dan
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Need a sweeter yeast than 71B-2112
From: Steven_Butcher@fpl.com
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:06:00 -0400
Dick wrote:
"Oh, and a side note for brewers becoming meadmakers, on the matter of yeast
characteristics: the "attenuation" figures commonly seen for brewing
yeasts aren't relevant to mead, because (to a good approximation) all the
sugars in mead are completely fermentable."
Thanks so much for this comment Dick! I have been scratching my head
lately over a batch of blackberry melomel. I am a meadmaker turned brewer
and still make a mead now and then...ok nevermind...I'm both...make beer
and mead all the time...always have somthin' bubblin'away, but I started
with mead. LOL!
Anyway, I had a blackberry mead from some commercial meadery in California
(can't remember name)a while back that my Dad brought back for me from a
trip out there. I loved it! It was sweet but well balanced...dessert wine
really. I always wanted to make something like that. I live in Florida
and don't have access to Blackberry bushes and I had heard of making
melomels out of fruit preserves and utilizing pectin enzyme to overcome the
haze problem.
Not being a very conventional brewer/mead maker, I just got the idea to
throw sumthin' ta'gether and see what happens. I took 6 10oz jars of the
highest quality (and least amount of preservative) blackberry preserves I
could find and 2 bags of frozen blackberries (the kind ya get at the
grocery store for making pies ect)and 6 lbs of Florida wildflower honey
(kind of a "who knows what it is" honey..but it tastes so good)from a local
apiary. I heated up 2 gallons of water to somewhere below boiling (just to
dissolve the stuff)and added all the preserves and honey. I also took some
of the must and made a starter with some left over *English Ale yeast*
thinking like a brewer and figuring a yeast toleration limit at 6-7% abv
max...Thus, I was expecting to get a sweet mead out of it.
I added the cooled must of preserves/honey/2 gal water to my fermenter with
a tablespoon of pectin enzyme and let it sit for 24 hours. Then I added my
happily bubbling yeast starter and enough water to get to the 5.5 gallon
mark and aerated. Fermented away vigorously for 3 days and then I expected
a slow down (as with beer), well, it did not slow down and continued for
about 2 weeks...I knew before I tasted it that it would be dry because of
the length of the primary fermentation...and it was. Tasted good, but dry
as a bone. Now I'm thinking, "Hey! This is suppose to be Ale yeast!" I
didn't take a gravity reading at the start, but I knew the must was plenty
sweet...much sweeter than any beer wort. It shouldn't have been dry...semi
sweet at the most. What happened???
Well, I went and picked up 3 more pounds of honey and another 10oz jar of
preserves and heated up about 2 cups of water and then added the honey and
preserves to dissolve. When cooled I added another pinch of enzyme,
stirred and let it sit for a few hours before adding it to my (now racked
from a plastic primary to glass secondary) existing must. Well, that was a
week ago and it's still bubbling away...pops about every 10 seconds now. I
fear I am making rocket fuel and will end up with a very high abv. Worse
comes to worse, I'll just keep adding honey until it finally quits and gets
to the desired sweetness, then put it on toasted oak chips for a year or
two and tell everybody it's a Honey/Blackberry Port! LOL!
To sum up a very long post...until I read your post, I had not considered
why a simple *English Ale yeast* could last so long. I guess it was also
due to the pinch of Viagra I added to the primary at the start...LOL! Just
kiddin'. Thanks for the explanation! By the way, I do ferment fairly warm
at 70-75F if my home thermostat is correct...that's another reason I guess,
but I never have a problem with Beer...now I know why!
P.S. Only in the secondary and no haze...fairly clear and haven't added any
clarifying agent...guess the enzyme works great!
Steve
South Florida
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Potassium Sorbate
From: Marc Shapiro <mshapiro_42@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 12:21:47 -0700
Robert Farrell asked:
> Is "1 tbs" of potassium sorbate/gallon meant to be 1 teaspoon or 1
> tablespoon? Ken Schramm recommends 1/2 teaspoon/gallon in his book (page
> 69). My homebrew shop suggests 3/4 teaspoon/gallon. A tablespoon is 4-6
> times more than these two guidelines. Is one tablespoon/gallon excessive?
> Does it leave a residual taste?
>
I would normally read 'tbs' as being tablespoon (and tsp as teaspoon),
but I also think that 1 tablespoon of sorbate per gallon is excessive.
Are you sure that wasn't for a 5 gallon batch? Using 1 tablespoon for 5
gallons would put it right in between the 1/2 teaspoon and 3/4 teaspoon
per gallon that is normally recommended.
- --
Marc Shapiro
mshapiro_42@yahoo.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Stopping fermentation
From: "Mike Faul" <mfaul@rabbitsfootmeadery.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 13:15:54 -0700
Or a double boiler and you'll never have scorching. If you use a sealed
double boiler you won't lose any product to evaporation either.
Now, you could bottle, suspend the bottles in the hot water use a bottle
full of water to gauge the temperature inside and then pasteurize in the
bottle. I have done that with a few hundred cases and it appears that there
is no loss of aroma or flavor.
May be the absolute safest way to do it on the cheap.
Sterile filtration is the way to go though :-)
Mike
Subject: Re: Stopping fermentation
From: rdadams@smart.net (Dick Adams)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 00:51:21 -0400 (EDT)
canwebowlnow@aol.com wrote:
> Here's my issue on this though. Is there a way to get the
> same result without the sulfites. I'm allergic!!
Yes. Siphon the yeast into a kettle and raise the temperature
to 158F (70C) and keep it above 153.5F (67.5C) for 25 minutes.
The textbook answer is 140F (60C) for 20 minutes. But higher
and longer is my way of making sure dead is dead.
You need to run a wort chiller to get the temperature down AQAP.
the siphon it in to a carboy, keg or bottles. Dead yeast don't
ferment!
My next research project is to determine some minimal secondary
fermentation time required before heating to kill the yeast. If
it can be done without flavor losses, heating to kill the yeast
at an FG of 1.015 to 1.02 sounds great to me. The plan would
then be to bottle it and hide it so it ages for a year.
Dick
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Subject: Berry types for mead?
From: "Shaggyman" <shaggyman@kc.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:46:53 -0600
> Subject: Berry types for mead?
> From: Arthur Torrey <arthur_torrey@comcast.net>
> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:29:39 -0400
> Stuff that looks interesting include Elderberries - How are they for mead?
Elderberry mead can be astoundingly good. It is easy to get too strong an
elderberry flavor, completely drowning out the honey, so take it easy at
first. Try two pounds of ripe berries in the primary of a five gallon
batch, having adjusted the must first to a gravity of 1.090 to 1.100, and
maybe Lalvin RC 212 or similar. Don't sweat pulling color- it will happen
no matter what yeast you use.
I usually put mine in a pressure cooker at 15lbs for 10 minutes to sterilize
and break down cell walls, but
it works just fine to just wash 'em and toss 'em, too. These babies carry a
pretty heavy tannin load, and the mead really likes to age for a few months
to mellow out. I was very dissappointed by the elder *flower* mead- a bit
peppery, but otherwise an unremarkable and insipid flavor profile. Wild
srawberries are just plain the BEST, although they are labor intensive due
to their small size. Blueberries are also great, as are raspberries, wild
grapes, and wild plums.
Lane O.
AKA: The Great And Powerful Shaggyman
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Re: Need a sweeter yeast than 71B-2112
From: "Jeff Tollefson" <jtollefson245@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 19:06:46 -0700
> >Subject: Re: Need a sweeter yeast than 71B-2112
> >From: "Jeff Tollefson" <jtollefson245@hotmail.com>
> >Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:51:37 -0700
> >
> > >Subject: Re: Need a sweeter yeast than 71B-2112
> > >From: rdadams@smart.net (Dick Adams)
> > >Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:13:53 -0500 (EST)
>
> >71B goes to 18%. If your mead is not currently at 18%, then adding sugar
> >and/or water will start up the fermentation again and will just result in
>a
> >higher alcohol level, but won't sweeten it. You will need to sorbate and
> >sulfite it to stabilize it first. To do this, rack on to 1 tbs potassium
> >sorbate and 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon, then let it sit for a
>few
> >days before back sweetening with honey, juice or whatever you want.
>
>Is "1 tbs" of potassium sorbate/gallon meant to be 1 teaspoon or 1
>tablespoon? Ken Schramm recommends 1/2 teaspoon/gallon in his book (page
>69). My homebrew shop suggests 3/4 teaspoon/gallon. A tablespoon is 4-6
>times more than these two guidelines. Is one tablespoon/gallon excessive?
>Does it leave a residual taste?
>
>Bob Farrell
>Portland, OR
I meant 1 teaspoon. Sorry! Havn't used the stuff in awile. Better go with
what your brewshop says. Personally I would go with a whole teaspoon.
A couple years ago I was experimenting with halting fermentations using
Sorbate, even though that's not what it was intended for. I was able to do
it, but it took 1 and 1/2 tsp sorbate, and a campden tablet, to halt a
vigorous fermentation at 10%. It didn't have favorable results, though.
------------------------------
Subject: (no subject)
From: AFDoty@aol.com
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:37:10 EDT
> Here's my issue on this though. Is there a way to get the
> same result without the sulfites. I'm allergic!!
I've got 4 6 gallon carboys going at various stages. The ph range from
about 3.3 to 3.6. My intentions are to filter the mead down to a .5 micron
and not use sulfites (or any other chemicals). Anyone have thoughts on the
use of filtration vs sulfites?
Al
------------------------------
End of Mead Lover's Digest #1315
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