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Mead Lovers Digest #1098
Subject: Mead Lover's Digest #1098, 11 May 2004
From: mead-request@talisman.com
Mead Lover's Digest #1098 11 May 2004
Forum for Discussion of Mead Making and Consuming
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: MLD#1097, 8/5/04 Price of honey ("Arthur Torrey (no spam please!)")
Re: BJCP Mead Style Guidelines ("Dan McFeeley")
Re: BJCP Mead Style Guidelines (Michael Faul)
Re: Mead Lover's Digest #1097, 8 May 2004 (Michael Faul)
honey prices ("Micah Millspaw")
RE: The price of honey (Warren Place)
Price of honey ()
Comparison of brewery vs. meadery (was Re: hitting pasteurization temp) ("...)
Re: Mead Lover's Digest #1097, 8 May 2004 ("Lane Gray, Czar Castic")
Ph meter maintenance? (Rick Dingus)
NOTE: Digest appears when there is enough material to send one.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: MLD#1097, 8/5/04 Price of honey
From: "Arthur Torrey (no spam please!)" <atorrey@cybercom.net>
Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:14:22 -0400
On 2004.05.09 01:34 mead-request@talisman.com wrote:
>
I work with a friend of mine that runs a bee supply outfit in the Metro
Boston, MA area. This puts me in contact with a great many beekeepers, and
yes the price IS going up. The last two years weather has been nasty in many
parts of the country, and this has hurt the price of honey badly, as many
beekeepers have lost their hives (My hive has died the last two years) and the
survivors have been less productive than usual. (BTW, the price you quote
isn't that bad, wholesale is over $3/lb last I heard)
Two suggestions on dealing with this.
1. Try growing your own... Beekeeping is a fun and fascinating activity,
and is probably the lowest cost agricultural thing one can do in terms of
time. As the guy that sold me my first batch of honey said, "If you're gonna
be using that much honey, you ought to be growing your own. (FWIW, a typical
hive will produce 5-15 gallons of honey / year) Location isn't as much of an
issue as many folks think, my bee supply lady bills herself as the 'Urban
Beekeeper' and several of her customers actually run their bees off their
rooftops, balconies and fire escapes of their apartments and condos in
downtowm Boston and Cambridge (and make really neat honey doing it!) I run my
hive in the backyard of my girlfriends suburban home. There is a certain
amount of extra satisfaction in having a bottle of mead that you literally
made every step of the way.
2. Go up the supply chain... Your brew shop is probably AT LEAST 3
suppliers away from the hive, each of which adds a markup to the price. You
would probably do much better to find a few local beekeepers and buying direct
from them.
ART
> Subject: The price of honey.
> From: "Ariel" <niffleheim@earthlink.net>
> Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 14:43:06 -0700
>
> Has anybody noticed that the price of honey is sky rocketing? Is it just in
> this area? I'm in Northern California, the silly con valley. And they want
> $44 for 12 lbs. of honey at my local brew shop. I really like to go there,
> but that seems high to me. Much higher than last time I bought honey there.
> Am I insane? Misremembering the price of honey? Anybody?
>
> - --- Ariel
> - --- niffleheim@earthlink.net
> - --- Http://home.earthlink.net/~niffleheim
>
------------------------------
Subject: Re: BJCP Mead Style Guidelines
From: "Dan McFeeley" <mcfeeley@keynet.net>
Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:44:07 -0500
On Sat, 8 May 2004, in MLD 1097, Michael Hall wrote:
>I wanted to remind everyone that the BJCP Mead Style Guidelines
>are out. You can log into the site and post comments about the
>styles, and these comments will be considered for the final style
>description.
[....] stuff deleted
>I would especially like this group to comment on two postings that
>I have made. One of the posts disagrees with the statements in the
>new style guidelines that "mead is like wine". (I believe that mead
>is like mead, not like beer or like wine.) The other post calls for
>better commercial example suggestions, and argues that Chaucer's
>and Lurgashall's Meads are not good examples.
I responded to Mike's first post, questioning the comparison of mead
to wine on the BJCP forum already -- a very thought provoking question!
I thought MLD readers might be interested so I've cross-posted my
response below.
- ---------------------------[snip!]------------------------------------------
Hall wrote:
>. . . . The problem that I have with the mead guidelines is that there
>are many references in them to wine; in particular, the beginning of
>the flavor description in all of the sections of the traditional mead
>category . . . .
>
>I have always held the opinion that mead shouldn't be like wine -- wine is
>too acidic, grassy, buttery, vegetal, pineappley, asparagus-like, etc. Mead
>shouldn't have those characteristics, IMO, except for pyments, of course. I
>have not tasted any meads that were like wine, except for ones that I
>considered to be off. I guess the main thing I dislike in the comparison is
>the greater acidity of wines.
>
>I've done some soul-searching over this point, and thought about it a lot
>over the past month or two. I really feel that we're leading people down
>the wrong path by comparing mead to wine. Note that it's not just dry
>mead, but all meads that include a wine comparison.
This is a very thought provoking post. I did some snipping here and there,
trying to quote from the most relevant portions.
In a very broad sense, mead *could* be considered as a wine, i.e., a sugar
source fermented by yeast. Rhubarb wine is a wine, so is blueberry wine. In
that very broad sense, mead is a "honey wine."
What Michael is objecting to, if I'm understanding his post correctly, is
drawing *too* close a comparison to various white wines. A dry mead is
similar to a dry white wine; a semi-sweet mead is similar to a medium-dry
white wine; a sweet mead is similar to a well made dessert wine. How are
they similar? In what ways? Michael is right -- the simile is too casual.
The intention seems to serve the purpose of helping people unfamiliar with
mead find some common ground but again, the simile is much too casual. It
does not illustrate the uniqueness of mead as compared to grape wines.
Hall wrote:
>I have always held the opinion that mead shouldn't be like wine -- wine is
>too acidic, grassy, buttery, vegetal, pineappley, asparagus-like, etc.
This is a very important point. At this point we're delving into oenology.
The balance and harmony of wine is based on the structure of acidity v/s
sweetness, which supports the flavor profile of the wine. All of this,
considered as a *whole*, is what makes for the taste of wine. Flavor is an
emergent property, something that is based on the physiology of taste.
(Sorry, that last sentence might be a little too obtuse. What I'm trying to
say, is that the "hard wiring" of the perception of taste is going to go
first for the flavor perception as a whole, with perception of the elements
as secondary.)
Mead is strikingly different. The acidic properties of honey, and likewise
mead, are very different from those of the organic acids found in wine. I
can't emphasize this point enough.
As a result, the balance of acid vs sweetness in mead is not the same thing
as the balance of acid vs sweetness in grape wine. It's the reason why so
many meadmakers have found that their meads stay balanced without acid
corrections, in spite of the variance of acidity in various varietal honeys.
Gluconic acid, the primary acid in honey, doesn't work in the same ways as
tartaric and malic acids, the organic acids found in grape wines.
Although I agree very strongly with Michael's statements, the problem is
that there isn't an equivalent of oenology in meadmaking to fully support
them. The most comprehensive research into the science of honey fermentation
was done by the late Dr. Roger Morse, of the University of Cornell, during
the 1950s' and 1960's. As important as his work is, it was also shaped by
the goals and perceptions of his time -- in Morse's case, finding ways and
means to better control the fermentation of honey for the purpose of
commercial production of mead. Technology was the means to that end, with
the end shaped by that particular means.
The most influential book I've read on oenolgy is Emile Peynaud's _The Taste
of Wine_. According to Peynaud, oenology begins with the taste of wine. One
must first become a taster before one can become an effective scientist in
winemaking, i.e., understanding the scientific principles behind the simple
perception of the taste of wine. Technology alone does not accomplish that
purpose. This was the mistake of USA winemakers during the 1960's and
1970's -- relying overly much on technology to control the production of
wine with the result of monolithic wines big in flavor but lacking in the
nuances and distinctions that make for a great wine.
As important as Morse's research were to meadmaking, there is still lacking
an approach to meadmaking similar to Peynaud's understanding of winemaking
science. Honey has been analyzed in terms of the food industry but not to
the extent that modern oenolgy looks at the wine grape. If that existed,
Michael's assertions would be all the clearer.
Sorry for the long winded post -- hope it was helpful!
A tip of the mazer to you all.
<><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><>
Dan McFeeley
------------------------------
Subject: Re: BJCP Mead Style Guidelines
From: Michael Faul <mfaul@rabbitsfootmeadery.com>
Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 14:07:45 -0700
> Subject: BJCP Mead Style Guidelines
> From: "Michael L. Hall" <Mike.Hall@POBox.com>
> Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 15:45:23 -0600
>
> Greetings,
>
> I wanted to remind everyone that the BJCP Mead Style Guidelines
> are out. You can log into the site and post comments about the
> styles, and these comments will be considered for the final style
> description.
>
> Here's how you do it: go to <http://www.hopmadness.com/bjcp/>,
> register (unnecessary but useful), and then page down to styles
> "24-26 Mead". Poke around a bit, look at the guidelines, read the
> previous comments, post your own.
>
> I would especially like this group to comment on two postings that
> I have made. One of the posts disagrees with the statements in the
> new style guidelines that "mead is like wine". (I believe that mead
> is like mead, not like beer or like wine.) The other post calls for
> better commercial example suggestions, and argues that Chaucer's
> and Lurgashall's Meads are not good examples.
>
> Please comment whether you agree, disagree, or have some other
> opinion. Please comment on the hopmadness site instead of the MLD
> so that the BJCP will be sure to see the comments.
There are several good commercial examples of mead. Not to toot my own
horn or anything but several include;
Heidrun
Rabbit's Foot
Redstone
Sky River and many many more which are all superior to both Chaucers and
Lurgashall.
I returned from the UK on a mead expedition and brought back samples
from several mead companies and I have to say that none of them are as
good as some of the better Polish meads or most of the meads in the list
above.
As far as competitions go, the rules should be to judge mead as mead.
Mead as the different styles go.
It isn't beer it isn't wine it is mead. Unfortunatley the government of
the US has it as a wine.
Anyway.
Mike Faul
Http://www.rabbitsfootmeadery.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mead Lover's Digest #1097, 8 May 2004
From: Michael Faul <mfaul@rabbitsfootmeadery.com>
Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 14:09:59 -0700
Subject: The price of honey.
From: "Ariel" <niffleheim@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 14:43:06 -0700
Has anybody noticed that the price of honey is sky rocketing? Is it just in
this area? I'm in Northern California, the silly con valley. And they want
$44 for 12 lbs. of honey at my local brew shop. I really like to go there,
but that seems high to me. Much higher than last time I bought honey there.
Am I insane? Misremembering the price of honey? Anybody?
The price of honey did almost double last year. It is starting to drop
again this year.
I buy it in 55 gal drums so I do notice the price swings.
in 2000 it was about $.85 per pound 2003 it was at $2.00 and now it's in
the $1.60 range
Mike
HTTP://www.rabbitsfootmeadery.com
------------------------------
Subject: honey prices
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspaw@Silgancontainers.com>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 07:18:47 -0500
Skyrocketing prices? I just bought 20 pounds of varietal honey for $24
dollars on Thursday last (had to bring my own bucket).
To avoid high honey costs I think that it is important to try to find
and cultivate a relationship with a local beekeeper. Most are receptive
to 'bribes' of mead. If you are buying a bucket full (your bucket) so
the bee keeper does not have a packaging cost they will be more willing
to negotiate on price. Always pay cash.
Another plus to this method of honey acquisition is direct knowledge
about the honey you are getting, nectar source, filtering, moisture
content, heating method, etc...
>Has anybody noticed that the price of honey is sky rocketing? Is it
just in this area? I'm in >Northern California, the silly con valley.
And they want $44 for 12 lbs. of honey at my local >brew shop. I really
like to go there, but that seems high to me. Much higher than last time
I >bought honey there. Am I insane? Misremembering the price of honey?
Anybody?
I hate too say cut out the local homebrew shop but if they can't be
competitive, well.
Take a trip over to the central valley there are many bee keepers that
will sell direct. Just don't buy the little plastic bears. If you don't
go to bulk it will be difficult to get a low price.
Micah Millspaw
------------------------------
Subject: RE: The price of honey
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:05:48 -0700 (PDT)
On Sat, 8 May 2004 Ariel wrote:
> Subject: The price of honey.
> Has anybody noticed that the price of honey is sky rocketing? Is it just in
> this area? I'm in Northern California, the silly con valley. And they want
> $44 for 12 lbs. of honey at my local brew shop. I really like to go there,
> but that seems high to me. Much higher than last time I bought honey there.
> Am I insane? Misremembering the price of honey? Anybody?
I saw a newspaper article a month ago describing a shortage of
bees and honey in California's central valley region. Supposedly, people
are going so far as to steal hives from farms. I lost my HD so I can't
provide a link, but you could probably find it with a search engine.
Warren Place
------------------------------
Subject: Price of honey
From: <chazzone@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 23:32:18 -0500
on 5/9/04 12:34 AM, mead-request@talisman.com at mead-request@talisman.com
wrote:
> Subject: The price of honey.
> From: "Ariel" <niffleheim@earthlink.net>
> Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 14:43:06 -0700
>
> Has anybody noticed that the price of honey is sky rocketing? Is it just in
> this area? I'm in Northern California, the silly con valley. And they want
> $44 for 12 lbs. of honey at my local brew shop. I really like to go there,
> but that seems high to me. Much higher than last time I bought honey there.
> Am I insane? Misremembering the price of honey? Anybody?
>
> - --- Ariel
> - --- niffleheim@earthlink.net
> - --- Http://home.earthlink.net/~niffleheim
Honey is high this year for a couple of reasons. China is a large supplier
of "industrial" honey, and they shipped over a bunch that was contaminated
with anti-biotics. This had to be dumped, and greatly lowered the supply.
In addition, last summer sucked for honey production in many areas. Rainy,
overcast days do not make for great honey production, and that's exactly
what a large portion of the country experienced last summer. This made
domestic production low, as well.
Both factors combined to create the tight market/high prices we see now.
I'd have to say that $44/gal. is a lot for honey. I'm paying $16/gal. here
in Indiana, and thought that was high (Ihave been paying $11/gal. for the
last 5 yrs.).
I say pass the brew-shop by for honey, and look for a local apiary.
- -zz
------------------------------
Subject: Comparison of brewery vs. meadery (was Re: hitting pasteurization temp)
From: "Ken Taborek" <Ken.Taborek@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 07:21:42 -0400
> Subject: Re: hitting pasteurization temp
> From: Michael Faul <mfaul@rabbitsfootmeadery.com>
> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:05:18 -0700
>
> Or you could put 275 gals honey, 600 gallons of water in the brew kettle
> and heat to 160, hold for 15 mins and pump through the heat exchanger at
> 65Deg F
>
> Mike :-)
Mike,
You've got me wondering...
In a microbrewery, it's usually manpower (and a shovel) that moves the grain
from sacks or a large hopper into the crusher, and sometimes from the
crusher into the mashtun, if the crusher doesn't feed into the mashtun. How
do you move 275 gallons of honey from whatever storage facility you have for
it, into your brew kettle? I'm guessing it's not by shovel! ;)
- --
Cheers,
Ken
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mead Lover's Digest #1097, 8 May 2004
From: "Lane Gray, Czar Castic" <CGray2@kc.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 13:06:04 -0500
> Subject: The price of honey.
> From: "Ariel" <niffleheim@earthlink.net>
> Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 14:43:06 -0700
>
> Has anybody noticed that the price of honey is sky rocketing? Is it just
> in
> this area? I'm in Northern California, the silly con valley. And they
> want
> $44 for 12 lbs. of honey at my local brew shop. I really like to go
> there,
> but that seems high to me. Much higher than last time I bought honey
> there.
> Am I insane? Misremembering the price of honey? Anybody?
>
I haven't priced honey lately (too many vacancies taking up our cashflow,
if you know anyone in KC, Mo, needing a place to live, we pay referral
bonuses), but from the last time I priced it, they asked $2.60 a pound or
so, although a guy to the north of town had it for a buck and a half,
provided you bought a whole 55 gallon drum. I ran the numbers, and
realized I didn't have a spare thousand dollars (55x12=660xa buck and a
half came up 990), so I said a quick "never mind."
Just under four bucks seems extreme to me.
- --
Lane Gray
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen
2:25
------------------------------
Subject: Ph meter maintenance?
From: Rick Dingus <rick.dingus@ttu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:27:18 -0500
My wife bought me a ph meter, which I looking forward to using with some
experimental brews that might have an unusual ph unless I make some
adjustments. But the instructions that came with the meter are not very
detailed. It does mention that after use, the meter should be stored in a
special solution, and that it should be calibrated before each use by
adjusting the readout to correspond to two sample ph solutions.
I have several questions:
1. How critical is it to store the meter in the special wet solution
between uses?
2. How long will the ph samples remain reusable and how do you know when/if
they go off? How, or what should the ph samples be stored in between uses?
3. Is it necessary to use a small graduate cylinder to sample the small
volume of the 20ml test ph solutions? Must the ph solutions be used full
strength? Will it change the ph if the test samples are mixed with a larger
volume of water?
Thanks for any info or references you can point me to.
Rick
------------------------------
End of Mead Lover's Digest #1098
*******************************
