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Mead Lovers Digest #1008
From: mead-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: mead-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: mead@talisman.com
To: mead-list@talisman.com
Subject: Mead Lover's Digest #1008, 14 April 2003
Mead Lover's Digest #1008 14 April 2003
Forum for Discussion of Mead Making and Consuming
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers (Dick Dunn)
The correct temperature for fermenting cysers ("Randy Goldberg MD")
Heather honey and Orange mead ("Paul Hudert")
re: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers (Michael Faul)
Vierka yeast strains (Ken Schramm)
RE: (calculating alcahol content ) (vinometer) (Aaron Marshall)
Re: MLD #1007, 13/4/03; Vinometro ("Arthur Torrey (no spam please!)")
Orange Blossom Honey ("Spencer W. Thomas")
Morse again ("Dan McFeeley")
Re: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers (Matt Gerbrandt)
mead is too dry ("Ronnie Anderson")
Re: Temp & Vierka ("Kemp, Alson")
Re: Mulberry mead ("msmead ")
Re: Vierka Mead Yeast ("msmead ")
Re: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers (Eric Drake)
Mazer Cup Update (Ken Schramm)
NOTE: Digest appears when there is enough material to send one.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:45:32 -0600 (MDT)
In the latest MLD, you wrote:
> The other day I was reading "The Closet of the
> Eminently Learned Sir Kenelme Digbie Kt Opened". I'm
> curious about a line on page 3 where he writes
> "Ferment your cyser at 55-60 deg. F for best results."
Well, Digby (Digbie) wrote nothing of the sort. Digby died about 20 years
before Fahrenheit was born; moreover Digby's recipes don't contain any sort
of precise temperature notes.
Beyond that, I don't find any cyser recipes in my copy of Digby! There's
a couple of cider recipes. I don't expect that "cyser" as we know it would
have made much sense to them, nor do I think the word then had anything
like its current meaning.
I think we need to know what you were actually reading and who wrote it.
Was it an annotated Digby, or what?
In answer to your base question, though: Yes, fermentation temps do depend
on yeast strain, although Digby didn't have the leisure of choosing yeast.
Anything he'd fermented would certainly have started out warmer and
probably fermented warmer throughout than 55-60F.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers
From: "Randy Goldberg MD" <goldbergr1@cox.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:22:19 -0400
> The other day I was reading "The Closet of the
> Eminently Learned Sir Kenelme Digbie Kt Opened". I'm
> curious about a line on page 3 where he writes
> "Ferment your cyser at 55-60 deg. F for best results."
> Shouldn't the yeast strain dictate the fermentation
> temperature? Meads yeasts are often warm-fermenters so
> I'm a bit curious on this one.
I doubt the Eminently Learned Sir Kenelme Digby said any such thing, since
Gabriel Fahrenheit didn't invent the alcohol thermometer until 1709, the
mercury thermometer until 1714, and the scale named after him until 1724 -
by which time Sir Kenelme was long dead. The editor might have made such a
remark, but as you comment, the ideal temperature varies with the yeast.
Randy
****************************************
RandomTag: ?pu gnikcab yb naem uoy tahw siht sI
------------------------------
Subject: Heather honey and Orange mead
From: "Paul Hudert" <paulgarbanzo@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:52:46 -0400
Heather honey
I made a batch of straight Heather mead. 1 gallon honey, 4 gallons water.
it has been fermenting for almost 2 years. it has slowed down, but still
bubbling. it's completely cloudy. I've racked it 3 times. after about 1.5
inches of sediment formed on the bottom.
I have no idea when it's going to stop. I'm assuming that it is fermenting
for such a long time because of the thickness of the honey and the amount of
sugar. it's my first time working with heather, so I don't know what to
expect, just expect a long brewing time.
Orange Mead
as for a recipe with oranges, I make an orange ginger mead that is a pretty
common recipe (and one that is almost impossible to mess up!)
I use 1 gallon of orange blossom honey/4 gallons water, the zests of 2
oranges and a piece of ginger one inch long and about as big around as my
thumb (more or less). add basic yeast nutrients, etc, sometimes I've added
the juice of the oranges that I skinned as well as their zests, but that
didn't seem to effect the flavor either way. using the zest and the orange
blossom honey really brings out the orange flavor.
Paul
------------------------------
Subject: re: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers
From: Michael Faul <mfaul@rabbitsfootmeadery.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:10:21 -0700
I was looking through my copy of Digby and I don't see a mention of an
actual fermentation termperature anywhere especially not on page 3.
What document are you reading? ISBN 0907325769???
Most commercial yeasts will ferment in that range easily with proper
preperation and nutrition.
Mike
http://www.rabbitsfootmeadery.com
> Subject: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers
> From: Matt Gerbrandt <matthewgerbrandt@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
>
> The other day I was reading "The Closet of the
> Eminently Learned Sir Kenelme Digbie Kt Opened". I'm
> curious about a line on page 3 where he writes
> "Ferment your cyser at 55-60 deg. F for best results."
> Shouldn't the yeast strain dictate the fermentation
> temperature? Meads yeasts are often warm-fermenters so
> I'm a bit curious on this one.
>
> I used champaign yeast in my cyser and fermented it at
> the 65-70 degree range preferred by the yeast. I
> haven't tried it yet but it smells great. Does anyone
> have a favorite mead yeast that thrives in the 55-60
> degree range? Many thanks in advance!
> - -Matt
------------------------------
Subject: Vierka yeast strains
From: Ken Schramm <schramk@mail.resa.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:08:57 -0400
>From the "Yeast and Fermentation" chapter of the forthcoming book, "The
Compleat Meadmaker" by, uh, me.
"Vierka yeasts are not freeze dried. Some mead makers in the US have
reported difficulty with Vierka yeasts, and I suspect that they may not
have followed the correct procedure for getting them underway. To
rehydrate and reactivate Vierka dry yeast, mix one-half cup water at
104 F (40 C) with one-half teaspoon sugar and a pinch of yeast
nutrient until dissolved. Transfer to a sanitized vessel, add yeast and
stir. Stopper with a cotton ball or other air permeable barrier. It
will take one to two days for this starter to grow and become active.
When preparing your must, add 1/4 cup to your starter to acclimatize the
yeast to its new medium. Pitch 2-4 hours later, but do not stir into
the must until signs of fermentation appear, then stir only shallowly.
Stir deeply when vigorous fermentation is apparent."
My caveat: I haven't used a Vierka yeast in about six or seven years.
This procedure sounds a little convoluted to me, but it is the
manufacturers recommended process.
Best of luck,
Ken
------------------------------
Subject: RE: (calculating alcahol content ) (vinometer)
From: Aaron Marshall <gumbyk@ureach.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:15:24 +1200
I have such a thing - a capillary with a bowl at one end and graduations.
They are very unreliable, or at least mine is... It gives my tap water a
3-4 % alcohol content. Don't know why I'm brewing if my tap water has this
sort of alcohol level.
Aaron
------------------------------
Subject: Re: MLD #1007, 13/4/03; Vinometro
From: "Arthur Torrey (no spam please!)" <atorrey@cybercom.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 19:33:11 -0400
On 2003.04.13 11:33 mead-request@talisman.com wrote:
> Subject: RE: (calculating alcahol content ) Mead Lover's Digest #1006, 8
> April 2
> From: "Sergi Santacana" <ssantacana@cronda.com>
> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:11:32 +0200
>
> There's yet another device to measure alcol content: a winometer ( I don't
> know if this is it's name in english) anyway, i think it's a litlle
> imprecise but may be useful if you haven't cheked inititial gravity.
>
>
> See what it is at http://www.enosacchi.com/misura_es.html (see the
> ,Vinometro) please tell me it's ame in english
Note, I am NOT an italian speaker, though I used to be pretty good with
spanish and have picked up enough over the years to make pretty good guesses
from cognates and so forth.
I could be wrong on this, but the picture looks like a device my brew supply
shop sells. (Beer & Wine Hobby, in Woburn, MA) They do alot of wine oriented
stuff, and I suspect that this website might be one of their suppliers, or at
least they both use the same wholesaler. Much of their wine equipment is from
Italy, and looks just like the pictures on the rest of the website.
If so the Winometer apparently works at least partly on capillary action,
with a little tiny tube that attempts to pull up the wine a certain amount
depending on it's alcohol content.
The shop strongly advised me against purchasing it as they said it probably
wouldn't work for me. The problem according to them is that the device is
very sensitive to sugar, and will only respond accurately when measuring dry
or extremely dry ferments. Since most meads have significant sweetness from
residual sugars, they said it wouldn't work well with them.
For what it's worth, my interpretation of the italian is approximately as
follows:
Vinometro: instrumento de medida de los grados alcoholicos del vino
Winometer: Instrument for measuring the grade of alchohol in wine.
The devices at the top and bottom of the page looked like they were fairly
standard hydrometers, with the bottom devices being intended for distilled
products (thus officially not of much interest to the US readers...)
The next device down, the 'ebullometro' looks like it might potentially be
more interesting, as it might have more capabilities. The name is also
somewhat amusing as it appears to have the root form of 'Ebullience' or bubbly
happiness - giving an approximate translation of 'happiness meter' Given the
nature of what its measuring, this is an amusingly appropriate name - how
happy will this batch make you?
My approximation of the italian is as follows:
Ebullometro: determina la gradacion alcoholica de los vinos y de todos los
liquidos alcoholicos
Happiness meter: Determine the amount alcohol of all wines and other alcoholic
liquids.
This description implies a greater range of application. It is hard to tell
from the picture, but it looks like this device might function as a sort of
scale, where one would put a sample of known size in the device, boil off the
alcohol, and see how much the weight had changed, which should be a function
of the amount of alcohol in the original sample.
For better or worse, there was no information that I saw on the website as
to costs, how to order, etc.
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers
> From: Matt Gerbrandt <matthewgerbrandt@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
>
> The other day I was reading "The Closet of the
> Eminently Learned Sir Kenelme Digbie Kt Opened". I'm
> curious about a line on page 3 where he writes
> "Ferment your cyser at 55-60 deg. F for best results."
> Shouldn't the yeast strain dictate the fermentation
> temperature? Meads yeasts are often warm-fermenters so
> I'm a bit curious on this one.
>
> I used champaign yeast in my cyser and fermented it at
> the 65-70 degree range preferred by the yeast. I
> haven't tried it yet but it smells great. Does anyone
> have a favorite mead yeast that thrives in the 55-60
> degree range? Many thanks in advance!
> - -Matt
>
I am speculating here, but I suspect Sir Digbie was using a natural
fermentation method with whatever wilde yeastes and bacteriums ;-} happened to
be on the raw ingredients. At best if he was using a culture to start the
brew, it would have been a pretty mixed batch of critters.
Insofar as we can tell anything about his era, he certainly would not have
known (at least from a scientific basis, though there might have been some
empirical knowledge) how to sanitize a must so as to kill off everything in
it, then re-innoculate it with a pure cultured strain of desirable yeasts the
way we do things today.
As such I suspect that what might have been going on is trying to do the
ferment at a temperature that still (barely) allowed the yeasts to work while
discouraging the less desired critters.
I believe that most of the techniques that are found in the olden tymes
books aren't inherently bad per se, but that they aren't really useful in
light of todays techniques. I rather suspect that if a modern brewer were to
be transported back in time to an ancient meadery he would be horrified at the
methods used, with bad sanitation, crude ingredients, etc. Most of the old
methods were simply empirical methods intended to overcome the defects of
their approaches.
Today we know alot more about sanitation, microbiology, etc. so it is
possible to control the brewing techniques and environments knowing WHY a
given technique will work (or not) and being able to tailor it in such a way
as to optimize the results.
As an example, my primary brew supply store does alot with selling wine
making equipment and grapes, etc. to a wide range of customers, some of whom
do really large volumes. Their customers range from old Boston North End
italians who are using much the same recipes and techniques their great
grandparents used back in the old country to yuppies who have just gotten
started and have all the latest scientific gadgets.
I am told that occasionally the old timers get lucky and produce a batch of
legendary high quality. But most of what they get is pretty average, and
sometimes they make great vinegar.
OTOH the yuppies tend to get consistently good to excellent quality results
from the same ingredients but using a scientific approach.
The ultimate example of this is a product my brew suppliers sell called a
'juice bucket' - this is a plastic bucket, filled with juice that has been
blended, sugar adjusted, pH balanced, etc. and innoculated with an appropriate
yeast strain. They are then frozen to suspend the fermentation and shipped to
us. The customer simply picks up the bucket, sticks a fermentation lock in
it, and bottles when done. Not exactly to my taste as it seems like the wine
equivalent of tube buiscuits. But one of his customers recently WON one of
the larger Boston Italian festival wine competitions with wine from one of
these buckets, produced by simply reading and following the label
directions... The old tyme brewers were more than a bit peeved, to put it
mildly.
ART
------------------------------
Subject: Orange Blossom Honey
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer@umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 22:48:12 -0400
I disagree with Leo. I don't think that Orange Blossom Honey mead
tastes and smells like oranges. I think it tastes and smells like
orange blossoms. If you've ever driven through central Florida during
the orange blossoming season, you'll immediately recognize the aroma.
It's a wonderful (but strong) aroma, and very recognizable in a mead.
=Spencer
------------------------------
Subject: Morse again
From: "Dan McFeeley" <mcfeeley@keynet.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 03:54:51 -0500
On Sat, 12 Apr 2003, in MLD 2007, Rick Dingus wrote:
>I'm unaware of the techniques Robert Morse devised for speeding up
>the fermentation times of mead. What were they and how did they
>differ from the additives we've grown accustomed to using since
>his time? Were his methods simple enough for home meadmeakers
>to try and test for themselves, or were they complicated enough so
>as only to be of use in commercial meaderies?
In general, they were much the same as methods used by a lot of
contemporary meadmakers. In his 1966 research with Keith
Steinkraus, Morse identified several factors which gave positive
results in the experimental series -- use of nutrients, monitoring the
pH, ambient temperature during the fermentation, and starter size.
Although these factors, as a combination (use of nutrients had been
around long before 1966), were a breakthrough in the 1960's, it is
old news today. You can find much of Morse's approach to
meadmaking summed in an article by Dan McConnell and Ken
Schramm titled "Mead Success: Ingredients, Processes and
Techniques" in the Spring 1995 issue of _Zymurgy_. Below
is a listing of the Cornell pilot project for meadmaking.
1. Crystallized honey was heated to 140 to 150 F, then diluted to
approximately 21 Brix. Clover honey was preferred.
2. Additives equivalent to Formula I and II were added to the
honey must.
3. The pH was adjusted to 3.7 - 4.0 using either sodium hydroxide
or hydrochloric acid.
4. Forty gallons of honey must were added to a 55 gallon oak barrel,
inoculated with 0.5% by volume yeast 618 (Steinberg) and sealed
with a fermentation lock.
5. The honey must was fermented at an ambient temperature of 65 F.
6. Upon completion of the fermentation, the mead was aged in the barrel
for 6 months.
7. Total acidity was adjusted to 0.6% with either citric or tartaric acid.
8. The mead was pasteurized at 145 F for five minutes, then bottled
while still hot.
This is the ingredient list for Morse's nutrient formulas. Formula I was
added at 6.75 grams per liter of honey must; formula II at 0.25 grams
per liter honey must.
Formula I
ammonium sulphate 1.0 gm
potassium phosphate 0.5 gm
magnesium chloride 0.2 gm
sodium hydrogen sulphate 0.05 gm
citric acid 5.0 gm
_____________________________
Total 6.75 gm
Formula II
biotin 0.05 gm
pyridoxine 1.0 gm
meso-inositol 7.5 gm
calcium pantothenate 10.0 gm
thiamine 20.0 gm
peptone (Roche) 100.0 gm
ammonium sulphate 861.45 gm
____________________________
Total 1000.00 gm
A few other points -- although Morse's methods resulted in consistent
fermentations of approximately two weeks time, they shouldn't be
considered as the "magic bullet" needed for successful meadmaking.
It's not necessary to follow Morse step by step, or even follow him
at all to achieve healthy fermentations. Morse was a professor of
entomology at the University of Cornell, but not an oenologist. His
knowledge of wine science was dated and at times questionable.
For example, apparently he had a belief that acid was needed by the
yeast for a good fermentation, something he may have picked up from
his research at Cornell for his Masters degree. His thesis cites a
German source from the 1920's that stated this. He continued to
include citric acid in his nutrient formulas, even though his own
experimental observations showed that adding acid at the start of
the fermentation would often cause the pH to drop below 3.0,
causing sluggish or stalled fermentations. He compensated for
this by adding sodium citrate to the nutrient formula, buffering it
in order to control the pH. Yeasts, however, do not ingest acid
as food -- very likely, what Sarin was observing was the effects of
pH on the fermentation. Again, Morse's own experiments confirmed
the importance of pH to the fermentation. He found that a range
between pH 3.7 and 4.6 aided the fermentation. Anything above
or below that range impeded the fermentation. A final point --
it's now known that citric acid can hinder the EMP metabolic
pathways in yeasts, something Morse probably wasn't aware of
at that time.
The Cornell University "rapid fermentation method" was intended
for commercial production of mead, and because of this, "success,"
was determined by meeting standards required for commercial
production, here, fast and quick fermentation with good control
via technology in order to guarantee consistency and quality in every
batch. To the craftsman, this approach amounts to overcontrol. A
fast fermentation doesn't necessarily mean a successful fermentation.
What is important is whether or not the fermentation is adequate, the
yeast are not stressed, and the results are clean in flavor profile. These
two measures of "success" look similar, on the surface, but they are
different.
<><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><>
Dan McFeeley
------------------------------
Subject: Re: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers
From: Matt Gerbrandt <matthewgerbrandt@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:40:37 -0700 (PDT)
Dick wrote:
> Well, Digby (Digbie) wrote nothing of the sort.
> Digby died about 20 years before Fahrenheit was
> born; moreover Digby's recipes don't contain any sort
> of precise temperature notes.
Ah, details, details. Heh... Thanks for pointing
that out, Dick. The actual reference is Barat's Mead
Page (http://members.cox.net/spursley/). Sorry for
the mix-up and thanks for your reply!
------------------------------
Subject: mead is too dry
From: "Ronnie Anderson" <lerxst@webmages.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:16:34 -0400 (EDT)
I have a basic mead in tertiary right now, but it finished drier than what
I had intended (.995). I used Red Star champagne yeast and 3 pounds of
Summer Thistle (very light) honey per gallon of water. I'd like to sweeten
it up some if I could, but I'm not sure how to do that without having the
yeast start working again.
Has anyone on this list sweetened a mead up after fermentation? If so, how
much honey is a good starting point and how do you keep the yeast from
eating it?
TIA,
Ronnie
- --
The yeast are 'selling' us a drug for a 5.2% energy tax - and humans
willingly, anxiously, happily give yeast this food energy for a drug with
little objective value. Let's face it, yeast are exploiting humans. --
Steve Alexander, HBD
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Temp & Vierka
From: "Kemp, Alson" <alson.kemp@cirrus.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:44:00 -0700
Subject: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers
From: Matt Gerbrandt <matthewgerbrandt@yahoo.com>
>"Ferment your cyser at 55-60 deg. F for best results."
>Shouldn't the yeast strain dictate the fermentation
>temperature? Meads yeasts are often warm-fermenters
>so I'm a bit curious on this one.
I think that nearly any wine yeast will work fine at
55-60 degrees. The fermentation will go a bit more slowly and
produce a different taste. White wines (Chard, SBlanc) are
commonly fermented at lower temperatures (55-65F).
The only yeast to worry about is a highly floculent one,
'cause it might settle out during the slow fermentation and die.
Subject: Vierka Mead Yeast - What The Trick?
From: Matt Gerbrandt <matthewgerbrandt@yahoo.com>
>I attempted to use Vierka mead yeast in one of my cysers.
That makes two of us...
>I dumped the packet in a 750 mL starter(preservative-free
>cider and honey).
Remember to rehydrate the yeast before you dump it into
the starter. Rumor has it that the dehydrated yeast
indiscriminately suck up rehydration water and anything in the
rehydration water. Before they're rehydrated and ready, you
don't want them sucking sugars, etc into the cell interior.
(Just dumping the yeast into a starter will probably work 90% of
the time, but who wants a stuck or damaged fermentation 10% of
the time?)
Rehyrdrate in warm tap or mineral water. Might help with
Vierka.
-Alson
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mulberry mead
From: "msmead " <msmead@doctorbeer.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:16:28 -0400
I have made mulberry mead, and will never make it again. There was
nothing *wrong* with the mead, it was quite inoffensive. There was
simply nothing to recommend it. Mulberries are an insipid, utterly
forgettable fruit. They're just not worth the trouble.
- -- Joyce
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Vierka Mead Yeast
From: "msmead " <msmead@doctorbeer.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:18:01 -0400
Vierka mead yeast is actually a very nice yeast, and produces an
excellent product. However, it is VERY slow to start. It's a yeast
that you really need to have going in a starter first, before adding it
to the main body of must.
- -- Joyce
------------------------------
Subject: Re: The correct temperature for fermenting cysers
From: Eric Drake <drake.49@osu.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:40:26 -0400
At 09:33 AM 4/13/2003 -0600, Matt Gerbrandt <matthewgerbrandt@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
>
>The other day I was reading "The Closet of the
>Eminently Learned Sir Kenelme Digbie Kt Opened". I'm
>curious about a line on page 3 where he writes
>"Ferment your cyser at 55-60 deg. F for best results."
>Shouldn't the yeast strain dictate the fermentation
>temperature? Meads yeasts are often warm-fermenters so
>I'm a bit curious on this one.
>
>I used champaign yeast in my cyser and fermented it at
>the 65-70 degree range preferred by the yeast. I
>haven't tried it yet but it smells great. Does anyone
>have a favorite mead yeast that thrives in the 55-60
>degree range? Many thanks in advance!
>- -Matt
You must recall that Digby was making mead before anyone knew what yeast
was. He goes on to discuss several other ways of getting the mead to start
working including toast with a nice layer of barm (yeast), setting it out
in the sun, and even throwing in a three day dead rooster.
Yet we cannot deny his experience was vast, so the indigenous yeast from
his area probably worked cyser pretty well at 55-60 deg. F. However, I
would tend to follow the fermentation temps the yeast labs recommend for
each strain. I believe they have done some research to determine this info.
Eric
------------------------------
Subject: Mazer Cup Update
From: Ken Schramm <schramk@mail.resa.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:57:06 -0400
We were unable to complete all eight of the rounds Saturday, and will
have to schedule a couple more judging sessions. Pyment, Metheglin and
the Commercial entries are yet to be judged. We should have everything
wrapped up in ten days or so. I apologize for the inconvenience.
Thus far, the competition is keen, and many difficult decisions have
been rendered. All results will be forthcoming shortly.
Thanks for your patience,
Ken Schramm
Troy, MI
I did my dormant spraying in the orchard tonight.
Barring weather calamities, it could be a pretty good year.
------------------------------
End of Mead Lover's Digest #1008
*******************************
