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Mead Lovers Digest #0961
From: mead-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Mead Lover's Digest #961, 9 October 2002
Mead Lover's Digest #961 9 October 2002
Forum for Discussion of Mead Making and Consuming
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
In response to Cyser question (Gary Zimmerman)
Oxygenation/oxidation ("Kemp, Alson")
Re: Mead Lover's Digest #960, 4 October 2002 ("Kurt Schilling")
Acid, oxygen, et al. (Ken Schramm)
Re: Oxygen, fruit and ascorbic acid () ("Dan McFeeley")
Cyser question ("Chuck NLN")
pH vs Titration ("Dennis Henry")
50 meads in Chicago! (Ray Daniels)
Re: Mead Lover's Digest #958, 26 September 2002 ("Dave Burley")
U.S. Meadery URLs needed (Scott & Cherie Stihler)
NOTE: Digest appears when there is enough material to send one.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: In response to Cyser question
From: Gary Zimmerman <garyz@optonline.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 16:37:19 -0400
Subject: Cyser Question
From: Joe Nelson <some1_ate_my_capn_crunch@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
Hello Listers,
Quick Cyser question:
Can I still use preserved Cider??? I kinda missed
cider season around here but would still like to make
a batch of cyser for my father as a Christmas present.
Is there any way that I can use preserved cider in a
cyser??? Maybe use a can of unpreserved apple juice
concentrate??? He isn't a big alcohol drinker so I
thought that the alcohol from the honey would be
enough.
Not really sure, just wondering if anyone had any
thoughts on this one.
Thanks,
Joe Nelson
I've made some great Cysers using bottles, store bought cider. The main
thing that you need to check for is to make sure that it is 100% pure cider,
without and additives. Many times, manufacturers will add potassium sorbate
or other chemicals to keep the cider from fermenting naturally. The problem
is that anything they add to keep their cider non-alcoholic will also kill
off your yeast.
------------------------------
Subject: Oxygenation/oxidation
From: "Kemp, Alson" <alson.kemp@cirrus.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:45:22 -0700
>Does it improve fermentation and/or taste[?]
Not sure about a direct effect on taste. According to
some textbooks I've read on fermentation, oxygen/air is critical
to proper fermentation and oxygen/air should be introduced at the
start of fermentation and 3 days into fermentation. I just leave
my meads exposed to air for the first 4 days or so (plug the neck
of the carboy with a paper towel or with cotton). If I'm
fermenting in a pail, I remove the top of the pail twice daily
and vigorously stir/fold the top of the must to introduce air.
>could it damage (oxidize) the must
No, it won't. Speaking of antioxidants, yeast are a very
potent anti-oxidant in that they will quickly remove and use any
oxygen that is in solution. Aging Chardonnay "sur lies" is done
(at least partially) because the lees are antioxidants and, when
stirred into the wine, actively remove ("reduce") oxygen from
solution. (Lees also contribute to mouthfeel and taste.) (Red
wines have lots of tannins (anti-oxidant) and need some oxygen to
mature, so they're not aged on lees.)
I just use air, not pure O2, though pure O2 is probably
better.
-Alson
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mead Lover's Digest #960, 4 October 2002
From: "Kurt Schilling" <newfie@insightbb.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:59:24 -0500
> Subject: Cyser Question
> From: Joe Nelson <some1_ate_my_capn_crunch@yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Hello Listers,
>
> Quick Cyser question:
>
> Can I still use preserved Cider??? I kinda missed
> cider season around here but would still like to make
> a batch of cyser for my father as a Christmas present.
> Is there any way that I can use preserved cider in a
> cyser??? Maybe use a can of unpreserved apple juice
> concentrate??? He isn't a big alcohol drinker so I
> thought that the alcohol from the honey would be
> enough.
Hi Joe,
Sorry but you can not use preserved apple juice or preserved cider to
make a cyser. However, there are several brands of unpreserved apple
juice (both liquid and concentrate) that you can very easliy use for
your cysers.
One suggestion though, don't put very much Granny Smith concentrate in a
5 gallon batch. Granny Smiths make for a rather tart cider/cyser. I
would limit the amount of Granny Smith juice to 10% of the total juice
used in the batch.
BTW, you might also look around in your local supermarket for
unpreserved apple juice/cider in the refrigerated section. It's usually
sold in gallon sizes. Try a gallon with 1.5 pounds of honey (no more
than 3 pounds) and add some cinnamon sticks to it after the primary
frementation.
And if you use a champaigne yeast strain, you'll get a fairly high
conversion of the sugars to alcohol. It's not unusual for a cyser
fermented with a champaigne yeast to end up at 14% or greater. For a
lower alcohol content you might try one of the neutral ale yeasts.
Slainte,
Kurt
------------------------------
Subject: Acid, oxygen, et al.
From: Ken Schramm <schramk@mail.resa.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 09:38:11 -0400
Great digest.
I agree with Dan, that taste is the best way to make acid adjustments.
That is how I have made my adjustments for the last six or seven years,
and have been pleased with the results. I have noticed that there are
certain honeys which will present very little acid to balance the sugar.
Fireweed is one of them. Acidity and sugar balances are dynamic in any
given honey by harvest/flow, and may vary substantially from year to
year based on climatic conditions or other variables.
Vince Galen asks about oxygenation. If oxygen is added at the start of
the fermentation - even all the way up to saturation - it will be used
up in yeast reproduction and will result in a healthy ferment. Oxygen
in solution is only a concern beyond the point where fermentation is
well underway. Whether or not it is worth the effort is something of a
judgment call. Wineries made great wines before such direct means of
oxygenation were available by stirring regularly for a few days after pitching.
Vince's question on fruit may have a lot to do with the yeast used.
Certain yeasts are known for having windows in which the fruit flavor
and aroma become more or less prevalent. You may find that the fruit
character reasserts itself after some of the more aggressive
fermentation notes soften. If you want fruit flavor to be prominent
early and stay that way, try Lalvin 71b-1122. It is odd that strawbs
would be the one that really hung in there. It's been my experience
that they are delicate and can fade in impact quickly.
I have become inclined more toward rates of 3-4 lb. of fruit per gallon,
but there are those who will say that the meads end up too fruity and
not "meady" enough. Especially with delicate fruit, the nature of the
fruit and the honey with which it is juxtaposed will be important
considerations in recipe formulation.
Joe Nelson: Preservatives in cider are a problem, and will prevent
fermentation. You can use canned or pasteurized apple juices that do
not contain any preservatives, but I have never used them as the basis
for a cyser, rather as an addition later on to improve the apple profile
of a cyser. Where are you from? Cider season here is really cranking
right now, and some of the better ciders are those made from the apples
that ripen last. There may be some late bearers that are still being
pressed if you call around.
I hope this helps,
Ken Schramm
Troy, MI
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Oxygen, fruit and ascorbic acid ()
From: "Dan McFeeley" <mcfeeley@keynet.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:59:47 -0500
On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, in MLD 960, Vince Galet wrote:
>If you need to check it to see if your yeast will thrive, pH may be
>sufficient (mead veterans, please correct me if I'm wrong - I have some pH
>knowledge but far less mead knowledge)
>If it's for the taste, well... taste it and see (that's what I do).
In Roger Morse's 1966 research into honey fermentations, he and Keith
Steinkrause found a "window" of pH ranges within which the fermentation
would do well. It ran from pH 3.7 to about 4.6. For pH values above
and below this range, the fermentation would slow and stall. Morse and
Steinkrause recommended pH 3.7 for a starting value as the best
compromise between a pH low enough to inhibit bacterial contamination
and high enough to encourage the fermentation.
That's not bad a figure to start with, but keep in mind that the pH of the
fermenting must is going to drop due to the organic acids secreted by
the active yeast. I didn't see anything in Morse's published research
that accounted for this. From my own experience, most honey
fermentations do quite well on their own, starting at about pH 4.0 and
finishing out at just above pH 3.0. I've been too lazy to monitor this
on a regular basis, however.
<><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><>
Dan McFeeley
mcfeeley@keynet.net
------------------------------
Subject: Cyser question
From: "Chuck NLN" <chuckwm@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 08:50:24 -0500
In MLD 940 Joe Nelson <some1_ate_my_capn_crunch@yahoo.com>
asked a cyser question.
>Can I still use preserved Cider??? I kinda missed
>cider season around here but would still like to make
>a batch of cyser for my father as a Christmas present.
> Is there any way that I can use preserved cider in a
>cyser??? Maybe use a can of unpreserved apple juice
>concentrate??? He isn't a big alcohol drinker so I
>thought that the alcohol from the honey would be
>enough.
Last winter I got bored and made two cyser batches.
The first was from frozen concentrate. The second
was from that clear (filtered & pasteurized) apple
juice that was on sale at the giant superstore for
about $0.79 a quart.
Neither one even began to approach cyser made from
freshly-pressed cider mill juice. The cyser from
concentrate was far better than the cyser from the
filtered juice. The filtered juice was just weak,
basically insipid. Eventually I just blended the two
together. So now I have about 8 gallons of "lawn-mower"
cyser. I'll probably bring 3 gallons to the hospitality
room at Planet Buzz, so you can taste for yourself. :?>)
Chuck
Meadmaker
beekeeper
Geneva, IL
------------------------------
Subject: pH vs Titration
From: "Dennis Henry" <dennis.henry@comdev.ca>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 12:48:13 -0400
Vince Wrote:
> Now, I will rely on someone else to explain WHY exactly people are
> doing titrations (probably to know how much acid potential is present for
> fermentation purposes- I just don't know better). But my guess is that the
> acidity you taste and the one "perceived" by your favorite yeast is
> the "free" one, measured by the pH.
I had this question myself and some web searches turned up some lecture
notes from a food science course (I'm afraid I don't have the reference handy).
It was indicated that the perceived taste depends on both the TA and the pH
as your taste buds actually have some of the effect of a titration and liberate
some of the bound H+.
As I understand it, it is just the pH that affects the yeast.
As for why many people measure TA and not pH...the equipment is much
cheaper.
However, for mead, I bought myself a low end pH meter, which is sufficient
to watch for potential fermentation problems. And for TA, I may measure it,
but mostly I rely on my tongue.
Dennis
------------------------------
Subject: 50 meads in Chicago!
From: Ray Daniels <raydan@ameritech.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:13:05 -0500
Hello all,
Just thought I would let you know that we will be having 50 different
commercial meads at the festival in Chicago coming up Nov 8 & 9. Also, we
have some good speakers lined up for Saturday including several commercial
meadmakers, a beekeeper and some cider folks. Also looks like we'll have a
special tasting of some rare/expensive products during the Connoisseur's
session on Saturday. Finally, if you are coming, don't forget to bring
some mead to show off---all you need is a bottle or two to gain admission
to the meadmaker's lounge where you can share with fellow meadmakers both
amateur and pro.
All for now,
Ray Daniels
Organizer,
Planet Buzz! The Mead, Cider and Perry Festival
Coming to Chicago November 8-9, 2002
See www.meadfest.com
and also, Real Ale Festival - 7th year Feb 26-March1, 2003
ray@meadfest.com
773-665-1300
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mead Lover's Digest #958, 26 September 2002
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley@charter.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:34:42 -0400
Mitch says: "Cyanide compounds comprise the majority of plastics today"
Absolutely not true.
Frankly, I don't know of any plastic that contains cyanide. Urethanes when
burned ( e.g. your airplane seat cushions) do generate hydrogen cyanide which
explains the high rate of death in any airplane fires and sofa burnings.
Additives to the plastic do slow down burning, but the fumes are still toxic,
something that seems to have been overlooked! when testing fabrics and foam
made from urethane.
Most plastics we come into contact with today are polyolefins and polyesters.
Both harmless substances.
As far as cyanide in fruits and seeds, this is well known but obviously not
of any concern ( as Mitch also points out) since we have been eating apple
pie, elderberry pie ( seeds of course cooked in) peach pie, cherry pie and
drinking cider and elderberry wine and other fruit wines for centuries with no
apparent ill efffects from the cyanide.
I'd like to see a real reference ( not just the "Internet" )from a peer
reviewed source on this subject.
Dave Burley
- ----- Original Message -----
>
> Subject: Re: Mead Lover's Digest #957, 24 September 2002
> From: "Mitch Rice" <mitch@bloomington.in.us>
> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:48:08 -0500
>
> Ok, a quick check of the internet confirmed my basic thoughts on this.
> Elderberries contain cyanide, as do black cherries. As the fruit ripens, the
> cyanide is "transformed" in the fruit to nontoxic forms, while it remains
> strong in the seeds of both fruits. Cooking the seeds with the fruit would
seem
> unwise. Unripe fruit of both are dangerous in large quantities. (Humans can
> tolerate and process a small amounts of cyanide!) I have eaten both from the
> tree and bush, and had no ill effects. Here is a quote I found: "In
sublethal
> doses, the cyanide is rapidly detoxified by the human body through
combination
> with sulfur to form nontoxic sulfocyanides, and recovery is usually complete
> within a few hours, with no permanent aftereffects." Not all cyanide
compounds
> are toxic, but the gas and metal salts are the worst. Cyanide compounds
> comprise the majority of plastics made today.
> As there are so many recipes for Elderberry wine, my assumption is that many
> people have used them to no ill effect in the past. If you are cautious, I
> would avoid them. I have 5 gallons of Elderberry-plum-blackberry aging in my
> carboy at present.
> Mitch
>
------------------------------
Subject: U.S. Meadery URLs needed
From: Scott & Cherie Stihler <stihlerunits@mosquitonet.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:45:57 -0800
I have created and recently upload an alphabetical listing of U.S. Meadery
Links (as well as wineries that produce meads).
The URL for this webpage is as follows:
http://www.mosquitonet.com/~stihlerunits/ScottsDen/Beer/Links/MeaderyLinks.html
If your favorite U.S. meadery has a webpage but is not on my list
please send the URL to me at stihlerunits@mosquitonet.com.
I hope to add to this webpage as I discover additional meadery
webpage.
Cheers,
Scott Stihler
Fairbanks, Alaska
------------------------------
End of Mead Lover's Digest #961
*******************************
