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Mead Lovers Digest #0795
Subject: Mead Lover's Digest #795, 10 March 2000
From: mead-request@talisman.com
Mead Lover's Digest #795 10 March 2000
Forum for Discussion of Mead Making and Consuming
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: forest mead (again) (Potgold@aol.com)
Re: Catnip mead (Potgold@aol.com)
help!!!!!!!! ("Thaddaeus A. Vick")
Re: Catnip mead (dworkin@village.org)
Re: forest mead (again) (Terry Estrin)
re: last forest mead question (Joe O'Meara)
Help on a black mead (w.w.mccormack@ev1.net)
Re: Mead Lover's Digest #794, 9 March 2000 (JazzboBob@aol.com)
the great experiment ("Gulgothica Tarsita")
RE: boiling experiment (kate.collins@nokia.com)
Re: forest mead (again) (Dave Polaschek)
Re: help!!! ("Jake Hester")
Champagne Bottles' Cap-ability ("Mark Nelson")
Re: Mead Lover's Digest #794, 9 March 2000 (Nathan Kanous)
Again with the Braggot (fjalar@mindspring.com)
Re: Mead Lover's Digest #794, 9 March 2000 (Yacko Warner Yacko)
pectin ("Alan Meeker")
Catnip, Maple Sap. ("Ken Schramm")
Re: Mead Lover's Digest #794, 9 March 2000 ("Belinda Messenger Ph.D.")
juniper berries (re:last forest mead question) (Dick Dunn)
Mint, catnip, and help with a nasty taste... (Cam Lay)
NOTE: Digest only appears when there is enough material to send one.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: forest mead (again)
From: Potgold@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:31:46 EST
From: Chris Barown <barowc@telenet.net>
>
> I have also considered using maple sap in
> this recipe instead of water. Does anyone
> have experience using sap instead of water,
> and does it sound like something that might
> work with the forest mead recipe?
It might be interesting, but do it quickly. Maple sap is loaded with wild
yeasts, and, as a former syrup maker, I know it can rapidly add off flavors
in syrup. The sap should not wait, even 24 hours from time of production. We
always tried to get it into the pan within 12 hours.
One syrup maker's trick is to do the gathering first thing in the
morning, discarding the ice in the buckets, which is almost pure water. This
concentrates the sugar some, and saves quite a bit of boiling.
Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com
Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (varietal honeys and beeswax candles):
http://members.aol.com/sweetnessL/
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Catnip mead
From: Potgold@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:39:24 EST
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous@pharmacy.wisc.edu>
He had placed some hives on some property
> and found that the honey had a unique flavor he could only describe as
> "mint-like". He's really interested in my making some mead with this
> honey.
Is there 10 or 20 acres of catnip? While bees will work catnip, it
would not impact the flavor unless there is a large quatity of it. Most
often a minty flavor is imparted to clover honey by basswood (linden), which
blooms in early July in the northeast. Pure basswood is rather sharp, and the
sharpness is greatly increased by heating. Clover/basswod mixes can be quite
pleasant, but this is one honey you REALLY don't want to boil...
Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com
Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (varietal honeys and beeswax candles):
http://members.aol.com/sweetnessL/
------------------------------
Subject: help!!!!!!!!
From: "Thaddaeus A. Vick" <thaddaeusv@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:25:55 -0800 (PST)
> From: Tudress@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:46:42 EST
>
> carboy. It bubbled and danced for another two weeks. Now it is crystal
> clear, and a beautiful amber color. But it tastes NASTY!!!!! It has a
> specific gravitity of 1.020 which is lower than anything I can find.
> Here's my big question. What Now? Do I bottle and hope? Do I add more
> honey? Juice? It's beautiful but looks so dead after the beautiful
> show. I hate to dump it but I have no references at all about the next
> step? HELP, Please!!
Relax. The mead gods are kind. You should probably go ahead and
bottle it. As a rule of thumb, don't count any mead as lost until it's
at least two years old. What kind of nasty does it taste? There are
several different ways a mead can go wrong, if it *has* gone wrong, and
each has its own distinctive nastiness. Another important bit of data:
how much honey did you put in, and how big a batch is it? It could very
well be that it just needs to age.
=====
Thaddaeus A. Vick, Linguist to the Masses Email: ThaddaeusV@yahoo.com
URL: http://members.xoom.com/ThaddaeusV ICQ: 21574495
===============================================================================
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man."
-><- George Bernard Shaw -><-
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Catnip mead
From: dworkin@village.org
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 21:23:41 -0700
Nathan Kanous <nlkanous@pharmacy.wisc.edu> wrote:
: Anybody got any recipes for a mead with
: catnip honey? Mint? I know there've been mint threads for me to peruse in
: the archives, but I don't recall any catnip threads.
Catnip is a mint. If you ever get to see some growing, it's obvious
that they're related (it just grows *much* taller than most other
mints I've seen). So, treat it just like you would a mint honey, and
you'll be fine.
Dworkin
------------------------------
Subject: Re: forest mead (again)
From: Terry Estrin <testrin@sfu.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:26:01 -0800 (PST)
This isn't really an answer to Chris Brown's question about using maple sap
instead of water, just another question. I've been scoping out all the
birch trees in my neighborhood, wondering how I can covertly tap a few of
them so I can make a birch-sap mead. While I've never tasted birch sap (or
birch syrup for that matter), I've heard it tastes pretty good, and I'd be
curious if anyone has tried using it instead of water in a simple mead.
Anyone tried plain birch wine who can describe the taste and how it might
interact with the taste of honey?
___________________________________________________________________________
Terry Estrin
Vancouver, British Columbia
------------------------------
Subject: re: last forest mead question
From: Joe O'Meara <drumthumper_2000@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:39:05 -0800 (PST)
<snip>
The recipe calls for 1/2 a cup of fresh juniper
berries ground up. <snip>
A general rule of thumb for using fresh herbs in place
of dried is 3 times the amount called for. And if
memory serves, the reverse it true also...3 times
less...so 1/2 cup fresh would be 1/6 of a cup dried.
Hope this helps,
=====
Joe O'Meara
Mad Dwarf Brewery (AKA my kitchen and coat closet)
ICQ # 60722006
http://homebrew.4mg.com
------------------------------
Subject: Help on a black mead
From: w.w.mccormack@ev1.net
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 22:47:16 -0600
Greetings!
I just got a crazy idea for a gift for some friends, and now I want to
know what kind of trouble I'd be getting myself into.
Has anyone on the list ever heard of or seen a mead so dark it was
black? Whether or not you have, does anyone know how this affect
might be achieved (other than die -blech-)?
Thankee for the help.
Will in Texas
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mead Lover's Digest #794, 9 March 2000
From: JazzboBob@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:06:26 EST
In a message dated 3/9/00 7:32:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mead-request@talisman.com writes:
<< I have long wondered if we could use MLD to design and execute experiments of
this sort as a group -- using enough of us that we could actually get some
statistically significant results. In this case, a bunch of us could sign up
to make two batches of mead identical except for treatment of the must of one
batch by boiling. We could then independently do some double-blind
tasting/smelling of the finished meads & compare. >>
Great idea from NLSteve. Could we get one of the more technical/statistical
types in the group to organize this? I'd be willing to share a few brews and
recipes for the experiment. Bob
------------------------------
Subject: the great experiment
From: "Gulgothica Tarsita" <gulgothica@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:03:19 GMT
Alright, I'm willing to spearhead this experiment.
For those of you who are new to this mailing list, there's been a proposal
for an experiment to be started to find out what methods of mead brewing
come up with the best results. I will be working on a web page for it when
I have time (I work and go to university, so be patient please), but until
then, I would appreciate results being sent directly to me.
Please, don't send me messages like "well, I've been brewing for 56 years
and I've never boiled my mead." That doesn't help. For now, I'm only going
to accept results from batches which were made together, from the same batch
of ingredients, and blind taste tested by at least 3 people. I think that
this is reasonable, and should give a good foundation for comparison.
The methods I'd like to test are:
Boiling vs. Sulfiting vs. Pasteurizing vs. Doing nothing.
I would also like to hear results on:
tap water vs. filtered tap water vs. spring water.
Taste, body, aroma, fermentation time, beginning and ending SG, etc. would
all be appreciated.
Any questions, comments, or helping hands would be accepted graciously.
TA,
Gul
------------------------------
Subject: RE: boiling experiment
From: kate.collins@nokia.com
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:26:21 +0200
> I have long wondered if we could use MLD to design and execute
> experiments of this sort as a group
What a fantastic idea! I would love to help oversee from the
scientific/procedural side (I have a BA in biology), but unfortunately I'm
personally somewhat new to meadmaking so it's probably better if I didn't
participate. This would mean acquiring honey from the same source of course,
so maybe international collaboration isn't feasible.
Besides this experiments, I vote for looking into the yeast question as
well. Too much of yeast usage seems based on personal preference.
/Kate Collins
------------------------------
Subject: Re: forest mead (again)
From: Dave Polaschek <davep@davespicks.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 06:38:55 -0600
Chris Barown <barowc@telenet.net> wrote:
>I have also considered using maple sap in
>this recipe instead of water. Does anyone
>have experience using sap instead of water,
>and does it sound like something that might
>work with the forest mead recipe?
Given that you have to boil sap down by nearly a factor of 30-40, you'll
get a minimal effect from using sap instead of water. Using 5 gallons of
sap is going to be equivalent to adding a little more than a pint of
syrup to a mix that used water.
But there's no reason not to try it if you think this might be enough
maple flavor for you. If you don't experiment, you'll never know.
- -DaveP
(the concentrating of sap is covered at
<http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~ohioline/b856/b856_37.html>)
Dave Polaschek - Polaschek Computing, Inc. - davep@best.com
PGP key and other spiffy things at <http://www.best.com/~davep/>
"It's only premarital sex if you're going to get married."
- Anonymous
------------------------------
Subject: Re: help!!!
From: "Jake Hester" <jake_hester@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:34:39 EST
Gillianne:
Boy, that story sounds familiar! My first meadmaking experience
went almost exactly like yours did... lots of fun while it was going
on, but an undrinkable end product. I still have a bottle of that
stuff sitting around somewhere... I may try it in four or five years,
see if somehow a miracle happened. I used some of the rest to
make mead brandy (likewise, not very drinkable, but not bad for
cooking), and threw the remainder out.
My next step was to get eight 1 gallon glass juice jugs, ordered
appropriate stoppers for them from www.beer-wine.com, and
made 8 variations of a basic mead... some had light honeys,
some had dark, some had natural acids, some synthetic, some
used 3 pounds of honey, some as much as 5. This time I kept
careful notes, and a year later, had friends over to help me
evaluate my product. Took the number one result, started
seven batches with different variables changed (yeast brand, different
amounts of acid and tannin, etc), and a new batch of the winning recipe.
Those aren't done yet, but I figure I'll take the best of those variations
and start my first five-gallon batch.
Hope this helps, maybe it'll give you some idea on how to proceed. Good
luck!
Jake
------------------------------
Subject: Champagne Bottles' Cap-ability
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:08:10 -0500
NLSteve wrote:
Randall Stevenson asked about keeping bottles of sparkling mead from
exploding. Something else to consider is that champagne bottles are built
sturdier than beer bottles to handle high carbonation pressure. They are
therefore less likely to ever explode. They will accept a beer cap <snip>
I've found that some champagne-style wines don't accept a normal beer cap.
The American, methode champenoise seem to be the best bet, but watch out for
cheaper Champagne-style sparkling wines. The problem seems to be that they
are not bottled/capped for the second fermentation/carbonation, so aren't
designed for caps. YMMV.
Mark Nelson
Atlanta
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mead Lover's Digest #794, 9 March 2000
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous@pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:24:51 -0600
Steve mentions using the MLD as an opportunity to conduct some organoleptic
evaluations of mead comparing boiled / non-boiled musts. A couple of
thoughts on my part.
First, those that are convinced that one method is superior probably won't
change anyhow.
Second, do you really need a bunch of people doing this? I figure that if
you run enough triangle tastings with a couple of batches, it should become
fairly convincing early. If you get 10 people together and they can all
identify which of the 3 tastes is the "odd one out" then you've got
something. If it's a wash, it's a wash.
Just my thoughts. I don't mean to be discouraging, just pragmatic.
nathan in madison, wi
------------------------------
Subject: Again with the Braggot
From: fjalar@mindspring.com
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:50:56 -0500
I recently made a braggot that was in the nature
of the "What the heck, throw it in!" school. It's
aging in 12 oz. beer bottles in my basement right
now, I'm hoping to crack the first one in June
(bottled in Jan.). I had a 2 questions and a
comment regarding this recipe. First off, here's what
went in it:
(For 5 US Gallons)
- -9# honey (Mesquite)
- -8# Liquid Malt Extract (Light)
- -2 gallons of Blackberries (fresh picked, then
frozen)
- -2oz. bittering hops (N.Brewer@11%)
- -1 oz. finishing hops (Fuggles@6.5%)
- -1 oz. aromatic hops (Kent Goldings@5%)
- -2 lbs cracked grain (1#Chocolate, 1#Munich)
- -4 oz. Vanilla Extract
- -Scottish Ale WYeast
(I won't go into the whole preparation here; this
post is long enough as it is. E-mail me if you're
really interested & I'll be happy to send it
along.)
I had this great theory that the Scottish Ale
yeast would poop out at around 8-9% abv (based at
least partially on research-it's what the guy at
the brew shop said!), leaving me with a thick,
strong, beer-like, brew. BOY HOWDY! That yeast was
tough! The batch had an OG of 1.130 and finished
out at 1.006! Approx. 16% abv! My first question
is, for future reference, what yeast would be best
if I wanted to re-make this batch another time
but end up with only 8-10% abv?
So, since I ended up with more bang for my buck
than expected, I decided to treat this like a
Barleywine. I bottled it using a pound of clover
honey as priming sugar. --I know, I know, that's a
little more than normal, but I was also sweetening
the brew a bit. Remember, the sugars were almost
ALL gone.-- My second question has to do with
aging; I was thinking 6-12 months to *knock the
edges off* of the alcohol palate. Does this sound
reasonable? I had posted this question a few months
ago but received no reply. Since the subject of
braggots has recently surfaced here in the MLD, I
thought I'd ask again.
My comment has to do with anyone crazy enough to
try & duplicate this recipe or something along
these lines. Cut back on the hops and/or use a
weaker yeast. I had anticipated a great deal of sugar
left in the brew so I bittered the heck out of
it. If I had only used 1 oz. of bittering hops, I
probably wouldn't have as long a wait for the
alcohol to mellow because the sugar would *mask* it a
little. Anyway thanks for putting up with this
long post! Wassail!
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mead Lover's Digest #794, 9 March 2000
From: Yacko Warner Yacko <yacko@mint.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:52:34 -0500
On Tue, Apr 15, 2036 at 11:34:17PM -0700, mead-request@talisman.com wrote:
> Subject: Re: boiling experiment
> From: NLSteve@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:59:15 EST
> Anybody else interested?
> Any scientists out there think they could set up an experiment?
> What other issues could we experiment on?
> (Don't look at me to coordinate this -- but I'd be happy to participate!)
> Steve
Having been trained as a scientist (and never using any of it
practically since school) I recall the bit about 'maintaining all
variables to be equal, save one. That will be the variable you're
experimenting with. ' To do this requires more than we think of
immediately...
- - water: the water source must be the same. Hardness levels, acidity,
metals, particulates, all change the way the mead will brew and
develop. While it's not generally enough to worry about in casual
brewing - to do a scientific study would require the same water.
Suppose everyone could go and buy the same bottled water - but that
would be damn expensive!
- - temperature: at what temp was the mead boiled, or not boiled. What's
the boiling point of water at the brewing location? Different
altitudes and all. This makes a difference. Also, at what temperature
is the mead fermented? We all can't afford fridges or climate control
to ensure consistent temperature in a brewing mead.
- - ingredients: local honey variants will produce different mead. Simple
enough. I don't believe that any honey product is actually distributed
on a large enough scale to ensure everyone could get the same honey.
We could ship honey around, but again, expensive.
- - cooking pot: I use a kettle that has a thin bottom. A proper brewing
kettle has a thicker bottom and raises temperatures more evenly. My
kettle has significant hotspots. Will that change the brewing process?
probably. Can we ensure equal brewing aparatus?
Don't get me wrong, I think the idea for distributed testing is great,
but I dont think it can fly unless you have a significant amount of
exactly equal variables. It's just so much to worry about. I think if we
all were given a recipe and instructions, we'd come up with all
different meads, to some extent. Even our own brewing habits will change
the outcome. Some people let the must sit and cool a little before
putting it in a carboy or bucket. I don't. I let it go in hot (which can
make one hell of a mess). Wish I had a way to cool it on the way in, but
can't afford the counter flow chiller and have no place in the kitchen
to use it correctly.
Of course, I dont think anyone will be offended if people suggest
distributed TESTING procedures. :) Same tasting sheets and people can
send their mead around to people for tastings. That would be a cool
thing to arrange. :)
Myself, I plan on starting my great experiment tomorrow. I've got 120
pounds of honey and many different yeasts. I'll be brewing a ton of mead
tomorrow (well - ok 120 # is not a ton but... :) and have invited some
friends over to learn how to brew (hehe - sneaky way to make them do
work ) I'll have 6 batches of various yeasts going in otherwise the same
conditions. It should work out nicely. Just have to check my ingredients
tomorrow and see if a trip up north (75 miles) to the brew store will be
in order before I start. I'll be posting the info of the experiment on a
web site and to this digest, so people will know the results as it
happens. Also, I would be happy to extend a bottle of each to a groups
of mead makers who can get together and do a tasting some months down
the road and do a real good comparison of the 6 types. That's what I'm
really looking for. I'm also hoping that I might have some to enter in
contests this fall..... if I'm lucky and get a quick mead or two from
it. :)
Wow.. that was a rant eh?
yacko
------------------------------
Subject: pectin
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:08:18 -0500
There has been some discussion of pectin lately. It was my understanding
that pectin was only a problem if it was heated to something like 80degC or
higher. I've made a few melomels, some with quite a lot of pectin-containing
fruits and haven't seen any pectin haze problems yet. Perhaps someone else
has more info on this topic?,,,,,,,
- -Alan
------------------------------
Subject: Catnip, Maple Sap.
From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk@resa.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:27:47 -0500
Second hand knowledge, here, Nathan and Chris, but I would like to add two
cents.
On the Maple Sap, Dave West, a pretty well regarded brewer and meadmaker
in the Detroit area, made a spectacular mead with a maple sap base about
five or six years ago. He used his own wildflower blend (he kept his
colonies behind the garage. His area is wooded. I can't say what recipe
he used, but I'll guess about a gallon on honey per five of finished must.
His favorite yeasts were ale yeasts, and I seem to recall him using
Nottingham, Chico, and a few others he got from Dan. He fermented cool,
and his meads were "mature' much earlier than many I have had made with
wine strains. Medium sweet, and VERY floral.
Catnip, or catmint, is indeed a mint, and should make some dynamite honey.
Charles Little from Bees knees commented on it as one of thiose that
really piqued his interest. I haven't bought any yet, but I intend to
after this year's flow. I would recommend maknig a traditional with medium
sweetness to really see how the honey character presents itself aftrer
fermentation. Maybe do your two pounds in 100 to 110 ounces must total.
Use a medium attenuator, (epernay or D-47), and a scant gram of fermaid or
other balanced yeast nutrient.
Good luck, and let us know how it comes out.
Ken Schramm
Troy, MI
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mead Lover's Digest #794, 9 March 2000
From: "Belinda Messenger Ph.D." <bmessenger@agraquest.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:48:10 -0800
Gilliane
Don't panic. One of my first batches was a spiced cyser and tasted AWFUL
right after it was done fermenting...like nasty rotten apples. I bottled it
and after about 18 months, it was delicious, spicy, smooth and sweet.
First rule of mead-making: be patient
Bel
>Subject: help!!!!!!!!
>From: Tudress@aol.com
>Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:46:42 EST
>
. Now it is crystal clear, and a beautiful amber
>color. But it tastes NASTY!!!!!
>Gillianne
Belinda Messenger, Ph.D
AgraQuest, Inc.
1530 Drew Ave
Davis, CA 95616
530-750-0150 extension 21
530-750-0153 (fax)
www.agraquest.com
------------------------------
Subject: juniper berries (re:last forest mead question)
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 10 Mar 00 14:28:49 MST (Fri)
Chris Barown <barowc@telenet.net> wrote:
> The recipe calls for 1/2 a cup of fresh juniper
> berries ground up...
Whoa, Nellie! That is a *lot* of juniper. Don't get me wrong; I *like*
juniper, but it's pretty strong. A little bit is interesting; a bit more
and it'll start to taste like gin; more still and it's going to smell
enough like turpentine that you'll think twice before you taste it.
>...I only have access to dried
> juniper berries. How much of these should I use
> and should I grind them up as well?
Substituting dry-for-fresh is iffy with herbs and spices...with some, all
you have to do is figure out an appropriate ratio; with others (coriander
and basil come to mind) the dried form is completely missing some of the
flavors of the fresh.
I'd substitute no more than a couple tablespoons (i.e., 4:1 reduction) in
this case. Well, actually, if *I* were doing it I'd probably use about a
tablespoon of the dried berries, being over-cautious because I'd rather
have a flavor like juniper be too subtle than too strong.
Rather than grind them, I'd crack them (the way you might coarse-crack
black pepper in cooking) and consider suspending them in the mead in a
little mesh bag so that you can mostly remove them after you've gotten
enough flavor out.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
------------------------------
Subject: Mint, catnip, and help with a nasty taste...
From: Cam Lay <clay@CLEMSON.EDU>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:59:16 -0500
Catnip is a mint and yes, their honeys are wonderful. Brings back memories
of going to college in southern Idaho, where a good bit of mint is grown.
Gillianne asks about the nasty taste in her first mead: My first batch was
awful ("rocket fuel and Listerine" was too kind) but I bottled and waited
and hoped and now, several years later, it's quite good. Have patience.
Regards,
C
------------------------------
End of Mead Lover's Digest #795
*******************************
