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Mead Lovers Digest #0788
Subject: Mead Lover's Digest #788, 5 February 2000
From: mead-request@talisman.com
Mead Lover's Digest #788 5 February 2000
Forum for Discussion of Mead Making and Consuming
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Vanilla mead sounds kinda yummy (Stan Marshall)
Pyment ("Boyce L. Clark")
Re: edme yeast (Gregg Stearns)
Too much must (NLSteve@aol.com)
Mazer Pics and the Church of Meadmaking Without Fuss (Jason Henning)
Lalvin EC-1118 ("Carl Wilson")
RE: Urea ("Sherfey")
poisoned ??? ("Scholz, Richard")
RE: Mead Lover's Digest #787, 31 January 2000 ("Brian Lundeen")
honey prices - Maine (Yacko Warner Yacko)
darkening mead / urea&phosphorus ("Alan Meeker")
Urea (Jerry Harder)
That White Scum sounds like wild yeast to me.... (Ted McIrvine)
Blood Mead ("butcher")
: Re: My House Smells Wonderfull! ("Matt Lists")
Re: Pomegranate mead (MLCrary@aol.com)
Bannana mead? ("Eric Bonney")
yeast and P (Warren Place)
bottles (Vamp@aol.com)
Re: Bannana mead? ("Matt Maples")
NOTE: Digest only appears when there is enough material to send one.
Send ONLY articles for the digest to mead@talisman.com.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Vanilla mead sounds kinda yummy
From: Stan Marshall <beorning@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:45:47 -0800
You are great at finding ingredients for mead. Where can I find cheap
whole vanilla beans?
------------------------------
Subject: Pyment
From: "Boyce L. Clark" <boyceclark@home.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:07:29 -0600
20 Gallons of bottled 100% grape juice from concentrate (I think its from
concord grapes) has fallen into my lap. I am interested in trying a pyment
recipe. Does anyone have one they can recommend? Thanks in advance.
Boyce L. Clark, Ph.D., P.G.
Geoscience Operations and Remediation
EcoScience Resource Group, L.L.C.
www.esrgroup.com
225/755-8844
------------------------------
Subject: Re: edme yeast
From: Gregg Stearns <gregg@ispi.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:40:00 -0600
Subject: Edme yeast
From: Jerry Harder <mastergoodwine@alltel.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:49:47 -0600
>>They all seem to stop at .3%-.8% below 11% alcohol, using about
>>3lbs honey/gallon. I find that using a tsp of irish moss (if you boil
>>your honey) helps it clear nicely. Even better, use a tad of isinglass,
>>and the stuff clears in a week! Best of all, the Edme yeast doesn't
>>leave as many off flavors, so I find it's not 'hot' and quite easy to
>>drink almost right after bottling.
>> Gregg Stearns
>What exactly do you mean when you say ".3%-.8% below 11% alcohol,"
>Do you mean 10.2%-10.7%?
>It sounds like it makes a very sweet mead with about a 6 brix or
>6% residual sugar. or a final gravity around 1.030. Is that right?
>Jerry Harder
Yes, from 10.3% up to 11% actually (looked at my brew log). Final
gravity usually in the mid to low twenties, though my blueberry melomel
went down to 1.002 (1.090 original). I would have to say that yes, it
is definitly on the sweet side, but not overpoweringly so. I find that
the Edme yeast does even better when a melomel is involved.
- --
Gregg Stearns | "All your metal armor drags me down,
Editor VnewsInsider.com | nothing hurts like your mouth."
gregg@ispi.net | BUSH: Mouth(razorblade Suitcase)
------------------------------
Subject: Too much must
From: NLSteve@aol.com
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:56:28 EST
joel tracy says:
<< I was mixing up a batch the other day, and as I
was pouring must into the primary (having pitched the
yeast starter halfway through the pour) discovered
that I had too much must to leave a comfortable amount
of space for the initial ferment (normally really
rambunctious). I thought I could keep the must for
topping off when racking. Is this a bad idea? Should
I/can I refrigerate the leftovers? >>
If you put this must rather immediately into a sanitized container and capped
it (preferably with an airlock, in case of spontaneous fermentation) and put
it in your fridge, it "should" keep awhile. Assuming it smells & tastes nice
when needed to top off the carboy, you could add it straight if you feel
lucky, or pasteurize it first if you're Type A. 20 minutes at 145 degrees,
and a quick chill back to room temp ought to do it.
Or you can ferment it separately in a small container with an airlock, and
mix it back in later. Consider a 1.5 liter wine bottle or 1 gallon apple
juice jar, both of which need odd-size rubber stoppers.
Steve
------------------------------
Subject: Mazer Pics and the Church of Meadmaking Without Fuss
From: Jason Henning <huskers@psn.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 00:23:35 -0500
Steve Daughhetee asked for a picture of some mazer cups. Here's a pic
from the '99 Mazer Cup Competition and a link to my web page. The page
is about the judging and the results.
http://www.fortunecity.com/littleitaly/pisa/415/mazer/m341.jpg
http://www.fortunecity.com/littleitaly/pisa/415/mazer/mazer.html
- -------
As far as the Church of Meadmaking Without Fuss, I'm long time member in
good standing. I dump the honey in, top off with tap water, and pitch
big.=20
Getting the honey dissolved isn't important. As the yeast use up what is
in solution, the honey layer on the bottom dissolves in to solution.
Giving the carboy a good rousing every now and then helps too.
I pitch about a packet of yeast per gallon per 100 gravity points.
Generally I use a gallon of honey, top up to 4 gallons and pitch 5 (5
gram) packets of yeast. Haven't had any problem yet.
I believe that high og meads have the same anti spoiling mechanisms as
wines do. High alcohol, low pH and no oxygen.
Cheers,
Jason Henning
Whitmore Lake, MI
Sometimes we brew in no particular way but our own.
------------------------------
Subject: Lalvin EC-1118
From: "Carl Wilson" <carlw@sonetcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 02:27:05 -0600
I was just wondering if anyone here has tried Lalvin EC-1118 yeast for mead?
I've recently made a batch of cyser with it, and it seems like it's going to
turn out great! Ferments very strongly, and after the second racking,
doesn't seem to have produced any off or "hot" flavors.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Urea
From: "Sherfey" <sherf@warwick.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 06:47:22 -0500
According to the Wine Lab Reference Manual, urea is illegal for use in
commercial winemaking (OK in the vinyards, though), and is NOT recommended
in must/wine. It can produce ethyl carbamate, and I'll let someone smarter
than me explain what this means.
David Sherfey
Warwick, NY
------------------------------
Subject: poisoned ???
From: "Scholz, Richard" <RScholz@refco.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:03:19 -0500
Chuck Wettergreen <chuckmw@mcs.net <mailto:chuckmw@mcs.net> >
Wrote in MLD #786
>
product of Spain
Thiabendazole and/or imazalil used as fungicides food grade shellac-based
wax. <snip> I went immediately to the freezer and threw out the zest that I
had been saving to put in the secondary. A word to the wise on use of
foreign fruit.
>
I went and checked on Thiabendazole and found this: at
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/fung-nemat/tcmtb-ziram/thiabendazole/fu
ng-prof-thiabendazole.html
<http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/fung-nemat/tcmtb-ziram/thiabendazole/f
ung-prof-thiabendazole.html>
thiabendazole
CHEMICAL NAME: 2-(4'-Thiazolyl)-benzimidazole (56)
TRADE NAME(S): Arbotect, Mertect, TBZ, Tecto, Thibenzole, Apl-
Luster (56)
FORMULATION(S): Wettable powder 60%, 45% flowable, smoke generator
(56)
TYPE: Benzimidazole fungicide
BASIC PRODUCER(S): Merck and Co., Inc.
MSD Agvet Div.
P.O. Box 2000
123 E. Lincoln Ave.
Rahway, NJ 07065
STATUS: General use
PRINCIPAL USES: Preventative and eradicant chemical against molds, rots and
others on vegetables, turf and ornamentals. Some systemic action. Used
orally on humans and livestock for roundworm control (48).
Fungicide to control green mold, blue mold, and stem end rot of citrus
fruits; to control Cercospora leaf spot on sugar beets; to control Fusarium
basal rot and Penicillium blue mold on ornamental bulbs and corms; to
control brown rot on bananas; to control blue mold rot, bull's eye rot and
gray mold on apples and pears; to control black rot, scurf and foot rot of
sweet potatoes; to control Fusarium (dry rot) in potato storage. Also as a
preservative for reconstituted tobacco. On soybeans to reduce the severity
of pod and stem blight, anthracnose, brown spot, frog eye leaf spot, and
purple seed stain. Antihelmintic to treat cattle against roundworm
infestations, sheep and goats for roundworm infestations, swine for
prevention of infestation by large roundworms (Ascaris) (56).
The interesting thing here is "used orally on humans" . If you can take it
as a medication a little in the zest can't be all bad and just might help
keep the mold spores down.
- ---
Richard L Scholz
Brooklyn, NY
(212) 587-6203
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Mead Lover's Digest #787, 31 January 2000
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen@rrc.mb.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:21:55 -0600
> Subject: DAP, urea (was Re: Wedding Mead)
> From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
> Date: 29 Jan 00 14:37:41 MST (Sat)
> What's the argument against urea? A naive chemical guess
> says that if it's
> providing available nitrogen, that's the main point, isn't it?
>
> Do yeast have a significant requirement for phosphorus that
> would otherwise
> go unmet?
>
At one time, there was a concern that use of urea led to the production of a
carcinogen, ethyl carbamate, by most yeast strains (some, such as Beaujeu
will not produce it). When I last heard anything about this topic a few
years ago, that theory seemed to be disputed. I don't know where it is at
today. From the reading I have done, DAP is viewed as a superior nutrient to
urea, and that's good enough for me.
> Subject: questions and comments
> From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:02:24 -0500
>
> Some questions and comments for the group
>
> 1) SORBATE - Does anybody have a good reference (or even a
> decent scientific
> explanation) as to why sorbate prevents re-fermentation??
Sorbate prevents yeast from budding (reproducing). This is why sorbate can
not be used to stop an active fermentation by a large yeast population. The
yeast will laugh at the sorbate and go on about their business. After the
fermentation is done, and the wine largely clear, there will still remain a
few active yeast cells (assuming you don't sterile filter). When you add in
sweetening to the finished wine, they will start to feed again. With the few
yeast remaining, you will not get enough fermentation to cause you a
problem. They will eat a little bit, and die. However, if you give them a
chance to multiply, the resulting feeding frenzy will have corks popping all
over your cellar.
I don't think this is an issue for mead, unless for some reason you are
adding malic acid into your mead, but when you add sorbate, you must also
add sufficient SO2 to prevent malolactic fermentation (the conversion of
malic acid to lactic acid). If this happens in the presence of sorbate, a
revolting geranium smell is produced. Of course, if you are doing a cyser,
or melomel, then this very much becomes an issue, since apples and many
fruits do contain malic acid.
Brian
------------------------------
Subject: honey prices - Maine
From: Yacko Warner Yacko <yacko@mint.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:38:14 -0500
I just placed an order with my honey supplier here in Maine. Looks like
honey prices have gone up a bunch in the last 16 months (that's the last
time I bought so much :)
Last time I think it was near $.90/lb, now it's up to $1.25/lb. Anyone else
experiencing this kind of rise in prices?
Regardless of price, I'll still have 120# of beautiful blueberry blossom
honey to brew with. :)
I'll be sending info my supplier to Vicky (www.gotmead.com) so she can
add it to her 'honey supplier' list.
yacko
------------------------------
Subject: darkening mead / urea&phosphorus
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:13:51 -0500
Jeff Norman noticed a darkening of his mead following racking. Jeff, this
is almost certainly darkening due to oxidation - exposure to air during the
racking and perhaps slow equilibration with any headspace air in the new
container...
- ----------------------------------------
Dick Dunn had a couple of questions about nutrients:
>What's the argument against urea? A naive chemical guess says that if it's
>providing available nitrogen, that's the main point, isn't it?
>Do yeast have a significant requirement for phosphorus that would otherwise
>go unmet?
One useful way to look at any question of nutrient requirements is to
consider what a living organism (yeast in this case) is made of. Aside from
water, free-living organisms at their most basic level are composed mostly
of CHNOPS - Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorus, and Sulfur.
Thus, to allow new cell growth you must supply adequate amounts of each of
these elements. In mead musts there is of course plenty of sugar which
serves as an abundant source of C, H, and O (this is why they are called
"carbohydrates"). Nitrogen is probably a problem as honey is probably low
in nitrogen sources. In beer-making there is plenty of nitrogen around
mostly in the form of amino acids released during proteolysis of barley
proteins which takes place during malting and mashing. Unfortunately honey
is not a rich source of proteins and those present probably do not undergo
much proteolytic degradation - keep in mind that the strains of yeast we use
don't secrete proteases so they can't break down proteins into amino acids
and they can't directly utilize (eat) proteins; they need free amino acids
or other small nitrogen-containing molecules such as dipeptides,
nucleotides, urea, or ammonium ions as their nitrogen source. The need for
nitrogen is doubly a problem because studies have documented that for
high-gravity fermentations (most meads) providing sufficient nitrogen is a
critical factor in obtaining a good ferment.
As with nitrogen, yeast have a significant phosphorus requirement -
especially needed for nucleic acids like DNA and RNA. Sugar isn't a good
source of phosphorus so, along with nitrogen, phosphorus may become
growth-limiting in honey solutions.
The idea of using a yeast nutrient that contains both a notrogen source and
a phosphorus source (such as diammonium phosphate) attempts to kill two
nutritional deficiencies with one stone. Urea (CH3-NH2-CH3) only supplies
nitrogen so I suppose this is the reason that people advocate the N/P combo
instead, unless there is some evidence out there showing that urea has a
negative effect on the yeast or the mead.
- -Alan Meeker
Baltimore, MD
------------------------------
Subject: Urea
From: Jerry Harder <mastergoodwine@alltel.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 20:09:55 -0600
> ...First add nutrient. Get ammonium
> phosphate or diammonium phosphate not the stuff with urea in it...
>What's the argument against urea? A naive chemical guess says that if it's
providing available nitrogen, that's the main point, isn't it?
Yes, but urea reacted with alcohol produces urethane, a somewhat
carcinogenic compound.-Inside Mead (AMA publication)june 94 pg 6
" Involvement of urea in ethyl carbonate formation has led to it's
elimination as an approved additive in many countries."- pg 155 Wine
Testing and Analysis Zoecklein et el
Do yeast have a significant requirement for phosphorus that would otherwise
go unmet?
I don't know, but it is one of the things I have listed in my notes as
being provided by yeast extract -so maybe so.
Also I'm not sure that ammonium phosphate is used as a nutrient additive
but I think it's a source of nitrogen. It is one of the ammonium salts that
the Formol test accounts for and the formol titration id designed to test for
fermentable nitrogen.
------------------------------
Subject: That White Scum sounds like wild yeast to me....
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 01:37:11 -0800
Regarding white pellicules on fermented beverages (see original
observations below) it sounds to me like a successful wild fermentation
with lambic-style yeasts. (Of course real "lambic" yeasts are wild
Belgian yeasts, hence my qualifier with "lambic-style" even though I've
domesticated the Belgian wild yeast.) These observations come from
someone who normally has ten gallons of lambic-style ale fermenting in
his basement.
Some mead makers of my acquaintance actually PREFER wild yeast
fermentations. Of course wild yeast has radical variation in ethanol
tolerance, but one benefit from this scummy pellicule that forms is that
you are getting an anerobic bacterial fermentation that seals out
oxidation and keeps your mead from tasting like cardboard. And I
suspect that the innate sweetness of a heavy mead will overcome the funk
of wild fermentation with time.
But I don't believe in simmering or boiling honey under any
circumstances. A few stray microbes will be less detrimental to your
mead than boiling out the delicate honey flavor.
Finally some mention of how to get clear mead was again in the last
digest. I'm absolutely convinced that time and temperature (as well as
a complete fermentation) are the two most important ingredients to
getting clear mead. I've had extended discussions here (and elsewhere)
about personal preferences for getting clear mead. My clarifier of
choice for mead is Sparkaloid (tm), although it requires multiple
rackings, preferably leaving the fermenter in a place that won't require
moving for further transfer. Others like gelatin, which also works
well.
Cheers
Ted in NY
Lemme see, if I have it correct:
Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox@cmsenergy.com> wrote:
> It krausened just fine, and then after a few months it
> developed a Mold? Or some such inconsistent
> white film-plecile over the top of the must, some large bubbles some white
> blotches. I dont want this to happen to my Heather honey. Which I would expect
> it would have much less wild yeast than the Fruit Blossom Honey from the
> orchard.
And Gregg Stearns <gregg@ispi.net responded:
> Phillip, I too once had a white film form in the carboy, just towards
> the end if primary. I consulted with the local brew god, and he said
> that yeast can do funny things, and that it might not be a contamination
> factor. I would like to add that it was forming large, soap like
> bubbles (3-4" across) at the same time. Well I tasted it, and it was
> fine! No sour/bitter/weird off flavors.
>
> Just the same, I would simmer your honey, at least half of it (one
> batch) to be on the safe side.
------------------------------
Subject: Blood Mead
From: "butcher" <butcher@drizzle.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:45:59 -0800
WARNING! This post might be really gross to some!
Has anyone ever attempted, seen, or (GULP) tasted a blood mead? I know this
sounds really icky, but there is a grand history of blood meads and was
wondering what could be learned by them. I plan on reporting back to the
group (in article form) when I have completed my research. I am not sure if
I will be tasting any, but I have found a "vampire" group that swears they
make it. And drink it. I don't know their source of the "essence", but I
will find out.
Oh, and this has nothing to do with my wedding mead question from a couple
of weeks ago. :)
Stephan Von Butcher
------------------------------
Subject: : Re: My House Smells Wonderfull!
From: "Matt Lists" <matt_lists@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:33:58 -0800
Part of the original post was about a white bubbly layer of stuff forming on
the top of the carboy. Phill, I disagree with Gregg Sterns (and his brewing
god) :-) if the film is truly white and not the usual light brown color of
yeast, what you have is bloom. It is a bacteria and it's not a big deal. It
doesn't effect flavor or aroma very much so you will still have a very
drinkable product when you are done. The way I remember it, bloom is an
aerobic bacteria so when you go to bottle it will die off. You may end up
with a case of ring around the collar :-)) but there are worse things. I
have had two batches with it in years I have been meading both ended up
tasting just fine. There are two approaches you can take, one is to rack
(leaving the film behind of course) and adding sulfites to try and keep it
from coming back OR what I did was just to rack and bottle as soon as I
could. Like I said without any O2 it died off it did leave a ring around the
neck but I like that more than the idea of late stage sulfiting. Just make
sure and ultra sanitize the carboy before putting it away and just chalk it
up to one of those things. If it becomes chronic I might replace all of your
tubing but I wouldn't sweat it yet.
Matt Maples
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pomegranate mead
From: MLCrary@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:48:53 EST
I believe that my brewing partner, Rebecca, originated the name 'Persephone's
Passion" for our pomegranate mead. We got the idea to make it when friends
from Microburst Brewery (thanks, John & Forrest) mentioned that organic
pomegranate juice was on sale at the local health food store, and they
planned to use it for mead. It was one of our earlier melomels, and turned
out very well. We used 6 quarts juice for a 5 gallon batch, and probably
about 10# Madhava Honey-either clover or wildflower. The exact receipe was
posted on our now-defunct web pag, but I believe Rebecca now has another page
with the same (and even more) info. Try her at
ris@eklektix.com for info. Glad others are experimenting and enjoying
pomegranates.( It's one juice we never even contemplated juicing our own
fruit; it would probably take 500 fruits for a batch.) Someone also mentioned
the "Thrilla from Vanilla" mead. I think that may have been originated by
Microburst, I know I have had it at parties they attended. One of the many
entertaining aspects of meadmaking/brewing is the naming process. The digest
is another. Thanks, Dick
Marcia from Unicorn Unchained Meadery
------------------------------
Subject: Bannana mead?
From: "Eric Bonney" <ebonney@fuse.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:27:59 -0500
Hey Matt,
I just saw your post on the bannana mead. I was wondering if you still
had the recipe. I would love to try it out for my next batch of mead. Can
you either post the recipe on the list for all to enjoy or provide it to me
by private email?
Thanks,
- -Eric Bonney
Prejudice is a learned trait, what are YOU teaching your children?!?!
------------------------------
Subject: yeast and P
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:39:16 -0800 (PST)
>rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn) wrote:
>Do yeast have a significant requirement for phosphorus that would
>otherwise go unmet?
>Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
> ...Simpler is better.
Yes, and no, depending on the must. If the must lacks P then the
cells will experience an imbalance in ATP/ADP ratios that regulate
glycolysis and fermentation rates. Since I use RO water, I always add
diammonium phosphate to ensure there are ample amounts of N and P. As
long as you don't overdo it there won't be any off flavors due to its
addition.
Warren Place
------------------------------
Subject: bottles
From: Vamp@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:11:36 EST
I just purchased some bottles at the dollar store, they are heavy duty wine
bottles with corks. The bottles are beautiful blue with grapes in gold and
silver painted on them. I am afraid to bottle my mead early, because I dont
want the bottles to explode, Ive read in the digest different ways to deal
with this..how can I tell if the mead has finished? Is three months
fementing enought to bottle? Dump in some vodka to kill the yeast (sounds
yucky)? How do I read the hydrometer..to see if its not dropping..? Please
advise.
Vamp
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bannana mead?
From: "Matt Maples" <matt_lists@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:00:01 -0800
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Bonney <ebonney@fuse.net>
To: Mead Lover's Digest <mead@talisman.com>; <matt_lists@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 5:27 PM
Subject: Bannana mead?
> Hey Matt,
>
> I just saw your post on the bannana mead. I was wondering if you still
> had the recipe. I would love to try it out for my next batch of mead. Can
> you either post the recipe on the list for all to enjoy or provide it to me
> by private email?
>
Here 'ya go. If I remember right the cloves were to high for my tastes and
when I made it again I only used half that much (or less) but if you really
love cloves you can go with the .5 oz. I would guess the O.G was around
1.110 to 1.120 only because that is usualy what I shoot for. Have fun and
let me know how it turns out.
Banana Spice Mead
3 lb banana
8 oz Johansiberg Resling Grape concentrate
1 oz ginger
.5 oz clove
7 pt water
3 lb honey
2.5 tsp acid blend
.5 tsp tannin
.5 tsp yeast energizer
Cot de Blanch Yeast
Slice banana skins and all, place banana, ginger, and cloves in a nylon
press bag and tie. In 1.5 qts boiling water simmer bananas for 30 min.
Remove pulp. Squeez bag to remove liquid but don't press bag too hard. Put
honey into fermenter and pour hot liquer over it let stand 15 min. Add
reaining water (cool). Pitch when cool enough. Age at least 1 year.
------------------------------
End of Mead Lover's Digest #788
*******************************
