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Mead Lovers Digest #0591
Subject: Mead Lover's Digest #591, 3 September 1997
From: mead-request@talisman.com
Mead Lover's Digest #591 3 September 1997
Forum for Discussion of Mead Making and Consuming
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
re: bottle sizes (Cindy Renfrow)
Re: Yeasts, Starters, Incomplete Fermentation, & so forth... (Charlie Moody)
Re: Bottle sizes (Michael L. Hall)
Re: Bottle sizes (Steve Lamont)
SO2 and other preservatives (Miguel de Salas)
Re: Bottle sizes (Peter Miller)
Wyeast sweet mead (Miguel de Salas)
Bottle sizes (Miguel de Salas)
Re: Mead Lover's Digest #590, 2 September 1997 (Charles Hudak)
Re: Bottle sizes (Dave Polaschek)
NOTE: Digest only appears when there is enough material to send one.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: re: bottle sizes
From: renfrow@skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:17:52 -0400
Matt Maples <mattm@ipacrx.com> asks:
> I am looking for the names and volume of the different bottle
>sizes.<snip>.......
According to the Random House Unabridged Dictionary:
magnum = 2 bottles = 1.6 quarts = 1.5 liters
jeroboam = 4 bottles = 3.3 quarts = 3 liters
rehoboam = 6 bottles = 5 quarts = 4.8 liters
balthazar = 13 quarts = 12.3 liters
salmanzar = 10 to 12 quarts = 9.5 to 11.4 liters
methuselah = 6.5 quarts = 6 liters
nebuchadnezzar = 20 quarts = 18.9 liters
HTH,
Cindy Renfrow
renfrow@skylands.net
http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Yeasts, Starters, Incomplete Fermentation, & so forth...
From: Charlie Moody <chmood@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 18:13:58 -0400
> > And yes, you would be better off using a starter when using dry yeasts.
> > You'll eliminate the lag time and give the wee beasties less opportunity
> > to spoil your nectar.
So far, I've used the Red Star: Champagne on the first batch & Premier
Cuvee on all batches since.
Fermentation on the first batch was quite slow, and while the culprit was
almost certainly the high OG, since then I've used a starter: mix a
three-packet strip of baking yeast into one cup of honey; add boiling water
to make one quart, & stir until everything's dissolved; and when cooled to
about 85F, pour half-&-half into 2 1-quart mason jars. Add a packet of Red
Star Cuvee to each jar, cap, shake vigorously, loosen the cap, and let it
rest. Repeat until the yeast has tripled in volume. Make must, add
contents of both jars, aerate thoroughly, lock the fermenter, and
fermentation is off at a dead run. When fermentation stops, it's because
every milligram of sugar is gone.
> Healthy yeast will ferment to their attenuative ability and then quit.
> Period. If fermentation "restarts" then it was never finished in the
first
> place and shouldn't have been in a bottle.... You can have a mead with
> alot of residual sugar without using preservatives. If you don't want
> to use so much honey that you get rocketfuel mead, simply pick a yeast
> that isn't so attenuative....
Alternatively...
> >I've only recently heard of this gradual honey addition stuff.
> Adding honey gradually is really just a way to get your final alcohol
> content up as high as possible with the yeast you are using.
Not really. If you use a highly-attenuative yeast, like I do, this is a
good way to gain max-alcohol; however, it is the simplest and most
straightforward way I've found to ensure complete fermentation AND exercise
fine control over the final sweetness.
> if you want to make a don't-have-to-meddle-with-it-too-much
> number just choose an appropriate amount of honey for your intended
> finishing strength.
Not that good @ math, myself. ;-)
> (Mel-got?)
Brag-o-mel!
- --
Charlie Moody http://www.phoenix.base.org/center.html
PGP Fingerprint: 7F 0D 9E 8C 7E DF 33 11 2C 2B B8 19 6C 0F 2C 02
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bottle sizes
From: hall@galt.c3.lanl.gov (Michael L. Hall)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:44:38 -0600
Matt Maples <mattm@ipacrx.com> writes:
> I am really hoping that someone can help with this. I am looking
> for the names and volume of the different bottle sizes.
I asked a similar question sometime in 1992 on the rec.food.drink
newsgroup on USENET. Here's the summary posting I made later (note
that our esteemed digest janitor was one of the respondents):
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: Measures of Wine (Summary)
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink
You may remember back in February when I posted this message:
> A long time ago I saw a newspaper article which listed the
> names of various measures of wine. Most of them were names
> of biblical people, but there were also some others. I have
> since lost the article and have not been able to find any
> other references that tell the names of these measures. The
> ones that I remember are:
>
> magnum - two fifths (1.5 l)
> jeroboam - four fifths (3 l)
> methuselah - eight fifths (6 l)
I got several responses, the best of which was from Joern Hagerup
(joern@ifi.uio.no). There were some conflicting responses, which
I suspect has to do with conflicting sources. For instance, most
dictionaries list Nebuchadnezzar as 20 quarts, not 20 bottles.
Nevertheless, I have attempted to put together a table which has
the most "correct" information available. Thanks go to all of the
contributors (listed at the end).
If you have any updates to this info, please email to hall@lanl.gov,
as I may not see a post.
Michael L. Hall
hall@lanl.gov
- ------------
Comments (from the contributors):
One thing you need to be wary of is that identical names mean
different measures between Champagne and Bordeaux.
The only unit I found that belongs in your list is the 'pipe',
more properly the Portugese 'pipa' unit, which is best applied
to a large quantity of port wine.
"Piccolo" is Italian for "small".
Note that:
1. There are three names for the 8-bottle unit.
2. Jeroboam means different things for wine and champagne
(is this true?).
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Name Of Usually Size Size Size
Size Applied To (in liters) (in bottles) (other)
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Quarter Bottle Champagne .1875 .25
Piccolo Champagne .1875 .25
Half Bottle Both .375 .5
Split Champagne .375 .5
Imperial pint Champagne .588 .784 20 fl oz
Bottle Both .75 1
Magnum Both 1.5 2
Double Magnum Wine 3 4
Jeroboam Champagne 3 4
Marie-Jeanne Wine ?
Rehoboam Champagne 4.5 6
Jeroboam Wine 6 8
Imperial(e) Wine 6 8
Methuselah Champagne 6 8
Salmanazar Both 9 12
Balthazar Both 12 16
Nebuchadnezzar Both 15 20
Sovereign Champagne 25 33.33
Pipe Port Wine 1/2 tun
Tun Wine? 252 gal.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Sources (in order of usefulness):
1. Jane MacQuitty's Pocket Guide to Champagne and Sparkling Wines,
by Mitchell Beazley (England), ISBN 0-85533-619-6.
2. The Wine Spectator.
3. International Critical Tables, 1926, National Academy of Sciences,
McGraw-Hill.
Contributors:
joern@ifi.uio.no Joern Hagerup
mikec@scripps.edu Mike Christensen
whit@milton.u.washington.edu John Whitmore
rose@cs.wisc.edu
clu@malihh.hanse.de Carsten Lutz
rcd@raven.eklektix.com Dick Dunn
jahayes@u.washington.edu Josh Hayes
m15543@mitre.org Steve Otruba
kehlet@baudelaire.Eng.Sun.COM Dave Kehlet
wcsjc@alfred.carleton.ca John Coughlin
lf@uk.ac.uea.sys Luke Fitzgerald
reb@amc.com Bob Brunjes
_____________________________________________________________
And, in May of 92, there was another good post in response to
my summary. I've included it after my .sig.
- -Mike
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Michael L. Hall, Ph.D. <hall@lanl.gov> |
| President, Los Alamos Atom Mashers <http://hbd.org/users/atommash> |
| Member, AHA Board of Advisors <http://www.beertown.org/aha.html> |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Subject: Re: Measures of Wine (Summary)
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink
Alexis Lichines's New Encyclopedia of Wines and Spirits
includes the following table as Appendix C:
Wine Bottles Metric capacity
==== ======= ===============
Alsace 1/2 bottle .36 l
bottle .72 l
Anjou 1/2 bottle .375 l
bottle .75 l
Beaujolais 1/2 bottle .375 l
Pot 2/3 bottle .5 l
bottle .75 l
Bordeaux
Fillette 1/2 bottle .375 l
bottle .75 l
Magnum 2 bottles 1.5 l
Marie-Jeanne 3 bottles (approx.) 2.5 l
Double Magnum 4 bottles 3 l
Jeroboam 6 bottles 4.5 l
Imperial 8 bottles 6 l
Burgundy 1/2 bottle .375 l
bottle .75 l
Magnum 2 bottles 1.5 l
Champagne
Split 1/4 bottle .2 l
Half bottle 1/2 bottle .375 l
bottle bottle .75 l
Magnum 2 bottles 1.6 l
Jeroboam 4 bottles 3.2 l
Rehoboam 6 bottles 4.8 l
Methuselah 8 bottles 6.4 l
Salmanazar 12 bottles 9.6 l
Balthazar 16 bottles 12.8 l
Nebuchadnezzar 20 bottles 16 l
Moselle 1/2 bottle .35 l
bottle .7 l
Port
Quart bottle .7575 l
Magnum 2 bottles 1.51 l
Tappit Hen 3 bottles 2.27 l
Jeroboam 4 bottles 3.03 l
Rhine 1/2 bottle .35 l
bottle .7 l
Sherry
Pint 1/2 bottle .3786 l
Quart bottle .7575 l
U.S.
Tenth 1/2 bottle .3786 l
Fifth bottle .7572 l
Magnum 2 bottles 1.51 l
I hope this helps.
Chris
___________________________________________________________________________
Christopher A. Pugh e-mail: cawa@css.itd.umich.edu
Christopher_Pugh@um.cc.umich.edu
USERW58U@umichum.bitnet
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bottle sizes
From: spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu (Steve Lamont)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 97 16:07:21 PDT
> I am really hoping that someone can help with this. I am looking for the
> names and volume of the different bottle sizes. Back in the days of old
> they came up with names for the different bottle sizes, a much more
> colorful way of referring to a bottle of mead or wine than just saying a
> 5 liter bottle.
> [...]
> bottle
> magnum
> jerabome
> rehabome
> balthazar
> salamanzar
> methoozala (sp)
> nebacanezar (sp)
>From an old USENET posting:
>From the Wine FAQ (see sig for locations):
*2.9 BOTTLING WINE
At some point the wine will be placed in bottles. Producers
<etc>
Bottle sizes; can also vary:
Applying generally to wines other than Champagne:
split 187.5 ml
1/2 bottle 375 ml (aka Fillette)
bottle 750 ml
magnum 1.5 liter (2 bottles)
Marie-Jeanne 2.25 liters (3 bottles) (Red Bordeaux)
double magnum 3 liters (4 bottles)
jeroboam 4.5 liters (6 bottles)
imperial 6 liters (8 bottles)
Applying to Champagne bottles:
split 200 ml
1/2 bottle 375 ml
pint 400 ml
bottle 800 ml
Magnum 1.5 liter (2 bottles)
Jeroboam 3 liters (4 bottles) (& Burgundy)
Rehoboam 4.5 liters (6 bottles) (& Burgundy)
Methuselah 6 liters (8 bottles) (& Burgundy)
Salmanazar 9 liters (12 bottles)
Balthazar 12 liters (16 bottles)
Nebuchadnezzar 15 liters (20 bottles)
- --
| Brad and/or Dri | For a copy of the Wine FAQ, drop us a |
| Los Angeles, California | note by e-mail, or check out the WWW at: |
(US) http://augustus.csscr.washington.edu/personal/bigstar-mosaic/wine.html
(Sweden) http://130.241.95.77/food/winefaq/index.htm
or ANON FTP at rtfm.mit.edu at: /pub/usenet-by-group/news.answers/wine-faq
(c) 1995 Brad and Dri Brown. All rights reserved.
spl
------------------------------
Subject: SO2 and other preservatives
From: Miguel de Salas <mm_de@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 11:19:35 -1000
>> There's also a reason to want to clean up the act if you're making a
>> melomel...sulfite on the fruit is one way around the delicate dance
>> of using enough heat to kill wild yeast but not so much as to set pectin.
>
>One way, yes...but despite what other ways there are of coping with this or
>any of the other possibilities & eventualities, I've yet to hear a
>compelling, or even thought-provoking, reason for sulfiting, etc. It all
>seems to me to boil down to fear. It strikes me as the same motivation
>behind stuffing beef cattle full of antibiotics: we worry that something
>*might* happen so let's take extraordinary pre-emptive measures - and we
>don't worry about what might happen as a result of those pre-emptive
>measures.
If you boil the fruit, you set the pectin. It DOES boil down to that, and if
you don't want to use pectic enzyme or have a cloudy mead, you will want to
sulphite.
>> That assumes you're making a dry still mead, but what about other styles?
>> How would you prevent fermentation from restarting--and *know* beyond the
>> shadow of a shard:-)--that it won't restart?
>
>And how can you know beyond the shadow of a doubt that there will be NO
>long-term side-effects of any kind to the extraordinary chemical procedures
>used to make sure?
>
>It's not my intent to belittle the concerns and efforts of others; however,
>modern history is filled with examples of technological fixes gone awry. My
>bottom line is I'd rather put my faith in my own skills, my own patience,
>and in the nature of the process itself, than in any easy techno-magick.
Do you realise that SO2 has been used for approximately 2,500 years, having
been used by Greeks and Romans, throughout the middle ages, renaissance, etc...?
It is neither an extraordinary chemical procedure, nor a technological fix,
nor techno magic, but a standard additive to wine almost since wine has existed.
This aversion to preservatives seems to be funded on the ignorance that
alcohol, sugar and acid are all preservatives. None of them are going to be
bad for you. (Except perhaps alcohol).
Modern history is also filled with people who have DIED directly or
indirectly by the effects of alcohol consumption. Do you find that a
deterrent? I don't.
Have fun
- -----
Miguel de Salas, in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bottle sizes
From: Peter Miller <ocean@mpx.com.au>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 11:23:42 +1000
>From: Matt Maples <mattm@ipacrx.com>
>Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:00:39 -0700
>
>I am really hoping that someone can help with this. I am looking for the
>names and volume of the different bottle sizes. Back in the days of old
>they came up with names for the different bottle sizes,
>>snip<<
>but I know I am going to hack the spelling and I
>don't know the volume. Here goes.......
>
>bottle
>magnum
>jerabome
>rehabome
>balthazar
>salamanzar
>methoozala (sp)
>nebacanezar (sp)
Years ago I used to have access to a Ben Turner book ("Home
Winemaking"?.."Basic Winemaking"?..) that listed the bottle names and
their relative volumes, but sad to say I don't have it anymore (maybe Rod
McDonald's got it? <Rod.McDonald@dist.gov.au>) I'll bet that Ben Turner
and Roy Roycroft's "Winemaker's Encyclopaedia" will tell you, if you can
find it: Faber 1979 ISBN 0 571 11420 2.
Some spellings from memory are:
jerobohm
rehobohm
methuselah
nebuchadnezzar
And I'm with you - I like the idea of names rather than the boring old
"five litre jar"...
Peter.
----- < ocean@mpx.com.au > -----
Perpetual Ocean Music & Sound Design
http://www.mpx.com.au/~ocean/
------------------------------
Subject: Wyeast sweet mead
From: Miguel de Salas <mm_de@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 11:28:25 -1000
Every post I have seen of people having trouble with Wyeast Sweet Mead talks
of fermentation pooping out at too high a final gravity.
I get the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that it is called a sweet
mead yeast because it can't cope with a lot of alcohol, and thus leaves some
residual fermentation. So if one starts the fermentation with the amount of
honey one would use for a sweet mead made with a tolerant yeast, the sweet
mead yeast is going to poop out and leave an excessively high final gravity,
because it will only ferment to about 10-11 per cent alcohol, which is all
it can cope with.
My impression is that using an original gravity of 1.090 to 1.100 would
produce a light sweet mead of 10-11 % alcohol and FG ~1.010 - 1.020, which
would ferment relatively quickly, and could be fed more if the result is not
sweet enough.
Anyone tried this with this yeast?
- -----
Miguel de Salas, in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.
------------------------------
Subject: Bottle sizes
From: Miguel de Salas <mm_de@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 11:33:46 -1000
As far as I can remember:
Bottle 750ml
Magnum 1,500ml
Imperial 3,000 ml (not sure below this
Jeroboam 6,000 ml
Rehoboam
Balthazar
Salamanzar
Mathusaleah (like the biblical chap... :))
Nabuchanezzer (or something like that: the sumerian chap...:)) (15 liters)
Cheers
- -----
Miguel de Salas, in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mead Lover's Digest #590, 2 September 1997
From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak@mail.adnc.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 00:17:02 -0700
Previously, I wrote:
>> ...The quality of your wine yeast smack packs aside, live, liquid
>> cultures of yeast tend to be cleaner, healthier and all around better than
>> dry packets...
>
Dick responded
>I understand "healthier", if for no other reason than that the drying
>process can't be easy on the yeast. But I don't see why they'd be any
>cleaner (does the drying process introduce contamination?), and there are
>certainly liquid yeasts with reps of being contaminated.
Ok, so "cleaner" may not have been the best word, although, yes, the drying
process does introduce a good amount of bacterial contamination.
Repitching a slurry from a previous batch *could* reduce the contamination
depending on your technique. It's true that contamination builds up over
time with repitching hence the idea of acid washing. I would argue,
however, that there will be less bacteria in my yeast slurry after only a
few fermentations on a % basis then there was in the original dry yeast
packet.
I then wrote
>>...The best solution is to brew frequently enough that you can
>> repitch the slurry from one batch to another; start with a dry yeast and
>> then keep using it (ta-da, instant liquid yeast) by harvesting from each
>> batch...
To which Dick replied
>Part of this I don't follow, and there are problems with it...
> * I don't follow how fermenting from a dry yeast is going to clean it
> up. I'd expect it to be more vigorous, but I'd expect that undesirable
> strains present would either increase or decrease depending on their
> relative vigor, and I wouldn't expect any contamination (bacteria) to
> decrease. Would it? Why? (Winemakers who do add yeast don't go from
> one batch to another, and most brewers only carry yeast forward for a
> few batches before going back to their master cultures.)
See previous paragraph above. Although most commercial wineries pitch
'fresh' dry yeast (boy that's an oxymoron) and don't harvest, don't think
that you can't. I routinely repitch my mead yeasts after the primary
ferment. I've had batches into which I've repitched start fermenting in
less than two hours. The lag time is minimal because I'm pitching close to
the optimum cell density so the yeast don't need to grow up much.
I also have to disagree with the comment about brewers. I'm the brewmaster
at a local brewpub and I repitch 10-12 generations at a minimum. I only
pitch a fresh culture when I start to see changes in the character of the
yeast such as decreased attenuation or different ester profiles.
Dick also wrote:
> * Once you start making different sorts of meads (melomels, metheglins,
> etc.) you've got to deal with carrying flavors across in the slurry
> from one type to another. The slurry from the green chile mead may not
> work well in that light peach melomel.
Well, though this is a valid concern, I can tell you that I've pitched
yeast that I harvested from an oatmeal stout into an american wheat and
there was absolutely no carryover of flavor. I've also never had any
problems with repitching meads, though I've never pitched from a chile mead
into a melomel.
Dick continued...
>Hey, c'mon...ease off a little. The yeast isn't the biggest factor. A bad
>yeast will spoil a mead, but a good one (which can be had as a dry yeast)
>will do the job.
Au contrare, the yeast is THE FACTOR. Take a five gallon batch and split
it into five gallon jugs and ferment each with a different yeast and you
will have five DISTINCTIVE meads.
I'm actually surprised that this thread has gone on as long as it has
considering the original comment that I made was
A JOKE!
though I do like playin the devils advocate.
I use dry yeasts almost exclusively when making mead. The only exception
is that I do repitch when I'm feeling "ambitious". I usually make meads in
clusters i.e. I go on a binge and make 5 or six batches in quick
succession. This makes it easy to repitch my yeast.
I justify this because:
i) Up until recently, liquid cultures of wine yeast were almost
non-existant (though Wyeast has come out with quite a few recently)
ii) I usually pitch at least two packets to help eliminate lag time.
iii) The harsh flavors that many dry yeasts impart will age out of the
mead whereas they won't age out of my beer (it doesn't get much time to
age). Yes, dry yeasts do impart harsh flavors (I can't say exactly why,
though I do have some ideas). Successive repitchings of the same yeast
will not show this tendency but the original ferment will.
That said, I do not, will not, ever again, use a dry yeast for my beers.
Changing to liquid yeast was the single best thing that I ever did for my
beermaking. A close second was switching to all grain.
TaTa
Charles Hudak
cwhudak@adnc.com
"Think it, Brew it, Drink it"
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bottle sizes
From: Dave Polaschek <davep@best.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 06:52:55 -0500
A quick look into my Random House Unabridged dictionary came up with the
following. I included both the size of the bottle and who it's named
after.
>bottle
.75 litre (.8 qt)
>magnum
2 bottles, or 1.5 litres - from the latin magnus, which means large.
>jerabome
Jeroboam - 4 bottles or 3 litres - first king of the Hebrews in N.
Palestine
>rehabome
Rehoboam - 6 bottles or 4.8 litre - successor of Solomon and first king
of Judah.
>methoozala (sp)
Methusela - a very large wine bottle holding 6.5 quarts (6 litres) - A
patriarch who lived to 969 years of age.
>balthazar
Balthazar - a wine bottle holding 13 qt (12.3 litre) - One of the three
magi.
>nebacanezar (sp)
Nebuchadnezzar (also Nebuchadrezzar) a bottle for wine holding 20 quarts
(18.9 litres) - A king of Babylonia (604? - 561? BC) and conqueror of
Jerusalem. II Kings 24, 25.
>salamanzar
? - couldn't find anything that looked right.
Your 5 litre bottle is probably a Rehoboam.
- -DaveP
Dave Polaschek - home:davep@best.com or davep@mn.uswest.net
http://www.best.com/~davep/
------------------------------
End of Mead Lover's Digest #591
*******************************
