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Cider Digest #2050
Subject: Cider Digest #2050, 25 November 2016
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #2050 25 November 2016
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Cider Q's (Gertsen-Schibbye Sigrid)
To Tom: (Kenton Erwin)
To Tom, part 2: (Kenton Erwin)
apple variety questions (SMB WEBER)
Re: To Dana: (Claude Jolicoeur)
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Subject: Cider Q's
From: Gertsen-Schibbye Sigrid <sbriand@lallemand.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 09:12:24 +0000
Dear Dana,
I realize that I may not be taken with as much gravitas as the esteemed
Claude J. and Andrew Lea, but I have mulled over how to add to the
discussion of Cider Q's and although I thought I could just 'let it go'... I
cannot. I've had sleepless nights thinking about the yeast in your email.
It seems to me that your description of your fermentation is like sending
the poor yeast to a starvation camp, and I would like to stand up for them
on just that point.
When you under-inoculate a yeast population, those relatively few yeast cells
you are adding may be in slightly higher numbers than the spontaneous/wild
yeast population (or perhaps not!), but it is going to take them much longer
to reach the critical biomass needed to start the fermentation. Not only
is the yeast going to be depleted of critical survival factors, but then
there is also the matter of starving them once they do get going for you.
I'm am NOT advocating giving them the whole candy store of food, but a
little, well-timed nutrition can go a LOOOONG way to supporting the yeast
you are asking to produce the nicest possible cider you have made from
your lovely apples! Please don't forget that some of these amino acids
you could add are actually aroma precursors to producing a better cider.
There must be a more elegant solution to stopping a fermentation than
treating the yeast like the enemy, before it has even started to do anything.
Even wild yeast can also use some support, once in a while!
That was not what I need to get off my chest, so that's another discussion
altogether.
Now I can rest a little easier.
Happy fermenting!
Sigrid
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Subject: To Tom:
From: Kenton Erwin <kenton.erwin@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:35:27 -0800
How long since your cider finished primary fermentation? It may take some
time before aroma and flavors develop. Some wines (and probably some
ciders?) will shut down for a while, but then re-emerge. I find it
surprising that the varieties you used would not provide nice flavors--not
sure about aromatics though. Fiesta is my go-to aromatic apple, but others
(?Jonathan? maybe) also have nice bouquets.
- --
Kenton Erwin
Epona, LLC
eponawine.com
Woodland WA
m: 503-250-1457
------------------------------
Subject: To Tom, part 2:
From: Kenton Erwin <kenton.erwin@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:36:49 -0800
P.S. - don't EVER use red delicious apples for anything! They are an
abomination of an apple. It was only due to their red color, and a powerful
marketing campaign, that we were forced to eat them for decades. Almost
every other apple in the world is better!
- --
Kenton Erwin
Epona, LLC
eponawine.com
Woodland WA
m: 503-250-1457
------------------------------
Subject: apple variety questions
From: SMB WEBER <weberscrossing9@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 11:14:21 -0500
I am seeking information on Yellow Gilliflower (?) and Cornish Gilliflower
for cider use. Comments from any who may have experience with their use in
cider or growing either would be very much appreciated.
Also looking for information on "New Jersey Longstem" if anyone knows
anything about it or where to find info about it.
Thanks very much to any respondents.
Susan
SMB Weber
------------------------------
Subject: Re: To Dana:
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoliprsf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 00:30:32 -0500
In CD #2049, Kenton Erwin wrote:
> I doubt that a reduced yeast pitch rate belongs on your list. [...]
> So if you lower the pitch rate, you will delay the onset of fermentation
> (which is a bad thing in my view), but you won't cause the overall
> duration of the active fermentation phase to be any shorter.
> Thoughts from others?
I am afraid things aren't that simple in reality. I would think what you
write could be true if there was a plentyful supply of nutrients and if
there was no competition from other micro-organisms. However, in a juice
where the nutrients might be limited and where there are many species
and strains of yeast and bacteria competing for these nutrients,
pitching at a lower rate may have all sorts of effects. I would say it
is quite unpredictable... And as Dana reported in this post relating
interesting observations, sometimes the results may be counter-intuitive.
As an engineer, I often say that working with living material is a lot
more complicated than working with inert material - which is what I have
done in my professional engineering life... Predictions are certainly a
lot more hazardous with living material than with a piece of steel
subjected to a load!
Claude
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End of Cider Digest #2050
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