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Cider Digest #2048
Subject: Cider Digest #2048, 15 November 2016
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #2048 15 November 2016
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
TA and pH (Andrew Lea)
Cider family (Alan Yelvington)
Re: TA and pH? (Claude Jolicoeur)
2016 Cider Days videos (Alan Yelvington)
Re: Fermentation Qs ("Dana Glei")
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: TA and pH
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 11:51:06 +0000
On 12/11/2016 05:46, Phillip Kelm wrote:
> I have two tanks of cider fermenting slowly. Both show an increase in pH
> and a decrease in TA, but one especially. Why would this be and is there
> a concern with any harmful bugs? The one I'm more concerned about went
> from 3.45 pH to 3.73! Both are only about 20% fermented. I'd like to
> relax and let them continue on, but I need to mix them into one tank.
> Any idea what may be going on?
From the sound of it you have a wild malo-lactic fermentation going on
concurrently with the yeast fermentation. This is not unknown and is
common in warm climates e.g. in Spanish cidermaking. It doesn't normally
happen if you added SO2 before fermentation. If you let them go on,
then probably all the malic acid will be converted to lactic acid
eventually with a further rise in pH. You could add more acid
(preferably lactic) when this is all over and you know what you are
dealing with. Stopping it in flagrante may be difficult while the yeast
is still working but you could try SO2 or maybe see if you could get
hold of some winemaker's lysozyme.
You also want to watch out for the generation of 'funky flavours' (ethyl
phenol etc). These are tolerated / welcomed in Old World ciders but
regarded with zero tolerance in the New World. Their presence /absence
rather depends on which of the many species and strains of lactic acid
bacteria have taken hold here.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
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Subject: Cider family
From: Alan Yelvington <alany@semparpac.org>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 11:28:54 -0500
Yesterday was Veterans Day, and it gave me
pause to reflect.
When I retired I left behind a place
(maritime) and a family that I'd grown with
for over 30 years (Coast Guard). It was a
terrifying transition.
I want to express my heartfelt appreciation
to the cider community for giving me a new
home and family.
I wasn't in a good place when I left for
Franklin County Cider Days this year, but I
knew that I had to be there. The warmth and
community were a healing balm that I sorely
needed. (Mind you, Franklin County in autumn
is a fine place to be by itself.)
So, if you want to help any vet struggling to
come home, invite them to make cider or brew
a batch with you. Ask them even if they seem
just fine. I'm confident that their families
will thank you too.
It was a privilege and an pleasure to serve,
and thank you for your support for all vets.
Neighbor Al
------------------------------
Subject: Re: TA and pH?
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoliprsf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 12:45:20 -0500
In CD #2047, Phillip Kelm wrote, Subject: TA and pH:
> I have two tanks of cider fermenting slowly. Both show an increase in pH
> and a decrease in TA, but one especially. Why would this be and is there
> a concern with any harmful bugs? The one I'm more concerned about went
> from 3.45 pH to 3.73! Both are only about 20% fermented. I'd like to
> relax and let them continue on, but I need to mix them into one tank.
> Any idea what may be going on?
Hard to say what may be the cause as you don't indicate if sulfite was
used, nor the temperature or the acidity as TA.
Different factors may cause a drop in acidity, but the 2 main are:
Yeast activity - some yeast strains do metabolize malic acid thus
reducing acidity.
Malolactic fermentation (MLF) - although MLF is generally active at the
end of fermentation and as the temperature rises in spring, MLF has also
been observed right at the start, sometimes even before the alcoholic
fermentation. This is in particular common with Spanish ciders.
In my opinion, best is to observe what is happening and taste to see if
there are off-flavors. If this is a commercial (and large) batch, maybe
send a sample to an oenology lab to identify if some unwanted beast is
present?
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: 2016 Cider Days videos
From: Alan Yelvington <alany@semparpac.org>
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:12:33 -0500
I put up some videos for those poor souls
that couldn't make it to Franklin County.
Making barrel cider:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVLWa1yMWmw
Restoring old apple trees:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ8RHwXO-Ic
Amateur tasting parts 1 and 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5cHRLSf3Bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWRNAB6GDvE
And here's a link to a Franklin County Cider
Days playlist.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6ueHfalAognryt6NnzwVAY4huC2jSjUi
Neighbor Al
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Fermentation Qs
From: "Dana Glei" <dglei@sonic.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 17:35:15 -0800
Hi,
This message is tangentially related to Josh Kellermann's question about
strategies for encouraging a stuck fermentation. I have been trying to slow
down my fermentations in order to achieve a stuck fermentation (without
resorting to a keeve). I have followed the strategies recommended by Claude
Jolicoeur (and others), most of which have worked as expected. Namely:
1) NEVER use a yeast nutrient (well, I suppose there might be a situation
where it is needed...I just haven't seen it yet)
2) Keep it cool (under 60F, preferably closer to 50F...I pack my small
batches in coolers with ice packs that are changed twice daily works pretty
well)
3) When using a cultured yeast, use a pitch rate much lower than
generally recommended (I have gone as low as a 1/8 dose...but the person
"Lucky Poire" who recommended a low pitch rate on another cider discussion
board says he uses a 1/10 pitch rate)
4) Rack early and often (as directed by Claude in his book)
5) Try to get juice/must that is low in nutrients (my brief experience
suggests that organic juice may be better than non-organic juice in this
regard...but that conclusion is based on too few data points to confirm
yet).
HOWEVER, I have had some unexpected results (at least they surprised me).
The details regarding my experimental results are provided below, but in
short, I have two working hypotheses and would like to know whether any of
you who are much more knowledgeable than I am about cidermaking think there
is any merit to these hypotheses (or whether you have alternative
explanations for my unexpected results). I am just guessing here.
H1: When no sulfite is used prior to primary fermentation and a low dose of
cultured yeast is pitched, the cultured yeast and the wild/ambient yeasts
compete with each other and slow down the fermentation.
H2: Addition of another source of wild/ambient yeast also slows down
fermentation.
Experimental Batch E1 and Control Batch C1
The first matched pair of batches used the same juice/must (raw juice bought
"freshly frozen" from a local apple farm, OG~1.056, pH~3.6-3.8)*, were
started under fermentation at the same time and under similar conditions.
All treatments were the same (pectinase in both, no sulfite) except for the
yeast. For E1, I used wild/ambient yeasts only, whereas for C1 I used a ¼
dose of M2 yeast (no yeast starter, just hydrated and then pitched
directly
into the must).
During the initial phase (0-17 days), E1 had a much faster fermentation
(FSU~258) than C2 (FSU~188). I did a 1st racking of both batches on day
17.
In the next phase, E1 had a somewhat slower fermentation (FSU~133 between
day 17 & 26--probably because it ran out of sugars, by day 26 the SG was
<=1.000) than C1 (FSU~154 b/w day 17 and 26, by day 26 SG~1.01).
I was surprised that the wild yeast only (E1) seemed to get off to a
quicker
start and ferment out all the sugars faster than the batch in which I
pitched a cultured yeast. I had expected a wild yeast fermentation to be
slower. It led me to wonder whether somehow the wild yeasts and the cultured
yeast competed with each other (b/c I didn't sterilized the must with
sulfite) and the net result was a slowing of fermentation. Is that a crazy
idea? Is there better explanation?
Experimental Batch E2 and Control Batch C2
The second matched pair of batches used the same juice/must (juice I pressed
myself from donated apples--not sure about the varieties, OG~1.06,
pH~3.4-3.6). They were started under fermentation at the same time and
under similar conditions. Both had pectinase added and a half dose (50ppm)
of sulfite. In this case, the only difference was that in E2 I tossed in a
few (~20 in a ½ gal batch of juice) CA wild grape/raisins (Vitis
californica)--I had this idea that if a New England Cider adds raisins in
fermentation, then a CA wild style cider should have CA native
grape/raisins--whereas C2 had no raisins/grapes added. I had intended to use
a wild/ambient yeast fermentation on these batches, but I had a bit of a
setback (I had read that you don't really NEED an airlock in primary because
the CO2 produced by turbulent fermentation protects the cider--well, I
learned the hard way; I guess that right after they say "you don't need an
airlock", the experts all seem to say "but I use one anyway"). In any case,
on day 5, I had my first experience with what I decided was the start of a
vinegar mother (not a film yeast) on one of the "extra" batches I had
started at the same time. After removed the problem batch that wasn't under
airlock from my cider room. E2 and C2 were under airlock and I didn't see
any such problem with them, but to be safe, I decided to pitch a cultured
yeast in these two batches to get fermentation moving. So, I pitched a ¼
dose of QA23 yeast (no starter, but rehydrated) in both E2 and C2.
E2 started bubbling out of the airlock by day 10, but C2 didn't do so until
Day 14. On day 15, I tested the SG at ~1.056 for E2 (FSU~29) and ~1.04
(FSU~136) for C2.
On day 27-29, I again tested the SG. Now E2 had sped up and overtaken C2 in
speed of fermentation: E2 SG~1.033 on day 29 (FSU~162), while C2 SG~1.031
on day 27 (FSU~81).
Between day 29 (E2)/27 (C2) and day 57 (E2)/58 (C2), the FSU was identical:
E2 tested at SG~1.023 (FSU~37) on day 57 and C2 tested at SG~1.019 (FSU~37)
on day 58.
I was surprised that E2 (the one with wild raisin/grapes) had a much slower
fermentation at the beginning. Was there something about adding the raisins
that slowed the start of fermentation? (addition of competing wild yeasts?
Tannins from the raisins? Can tannins affect the speed of fermentation?)
Any idea?
* Note: I use "~" because I have a cheap hydrometer bought from the brew
store and basic pH strips. So, my instruments are not very precise and I am
sure that is a lot of measurement error.
Cheers,
Dana Glei
Budding Cidermaker
<mailto:dglei@sonic.net> dglei@sonic.net
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End of Cider Digest #2048
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