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Cider Digest #2020
Subject: Cider Digest #2020, 18 March 2016
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #2020 18 March 2016
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #2018, 5 March 2016 (SMB WEBER)
Cider Digest #2019 Reply to Mike Beck ()
simple misunderstanding? (Dick Dunn)
Re: what did he say? (William Lyon)
11th Annual Great Lakes International Cider & Perry Competition ("Gary Awdey")
Spanish cider (sidra) varieties (David Pickering)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #2018, 5 March 2016
From: SMB WEBER <weberscrossing9@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 10:30:09 -0500
Thank you all. We will be using the Polaris for the first time this coming
week.
SMBW
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Subject: Cider Digest #2019 Reply to Mike Beck
From: <lotic@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 16:07:11 -0400
Hi Mike,
Love the Uncle Johns! Keep it comin'!
Sorry I couldn't make it to Oregon. It sounds like it was a great time
for all.
Since I wasn't there, I missed your talk, but I did just read your post
in Cider Digest #2019.
I'm a bit confused (typical); you say you can't think of a single cider
apple that folks should plant and then say you are planting cider fruit
and have many on order.
While it is true that "the big kids" are making lots of cider from
concentrate, they usually add lots of flavorings (Gee, I wonder why they
would have to do that?). We both know
that different apples taste differently in cider. Some ciders promote the
varieties they use right on the label (Farnum's Kingston Black, and West
County's Dry Baldwin come to mind). These are really fine ciders that
promote the fruit (without 10-tons of ginger to mask the flavor). I'd
like to see more ciders like the two above. Yes, that is just a personal
preference, and Nat West is rolling his eyes.
Most traditional varieties are a bear to grow (low yield, disease prone,
biennial, slow growing). I once told a grower that I wanted to plant some
Baldwins. He replied, "Ah, you want to grow wood?". We will have to look
to Europe to find long standing research on growing cider apples (old
Long Ashton articles). The USDA and Cornell are currently on the case
here, and we should support their efforts (and the efforts of your local
extension service!). I don't know about high-density production of cider
fruit. It sounds possible, but the up-front cost is insane. You are very
correct to cite California wine makers. High-density orchards are looking
more and more like vineyards every day (and the apple is part of the rose
family - a vine). Maybe we can learn from vineyard techniques. They seem
to be able to grow both table grapes and wine grapes. There are certain
varieties of wine grapes that are always in demand. The same is true for
cider apples. While the "best" way to grow them is ever changing, the
demand is there.
I understand that it is a really, really big gamble to plant trees for
which there is only one market (the cider market). That is why I strongly
urge every state to take a look at the NY Farm-Cidery License (signed
into being in 2013). Basically, it says that NY cider makers holding this
license get a tax break, promotion, and easy access to markets IF they
exclusively use NY apples. There's your market! What a great way to
inspire growers to plant cider fruit, and also a "win" for the cider
makers. This license has been working very well for folks like Nine-Pin
Cider. So, the best way I can think of to assuage the fears of growers
and supply cider fruit to the makers is to offer this license.
I'd like to hear from a NY cider maker regarding the NY Farm-Cidery
License. Here, in MA, we have the Farmer-Winery license. The "farmer" bit
has nothing to do with promoting agriculture or the use of MA fruit (I
don't know why it's even in the name...Ok, I do, but it's a long story).
I do hope MA (and MI) can soon add a Farm-Cidery License like in NY.
Peter Mitchell
Headwater Cider
Hawley, MA
------------------------------
Subject: simple misunderstanding?
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 12:53:23 -0600
Having heard indirectly about Beck's statements on growing cider apples in
the US, and then reading his posting in CD 2019, I wonder if there isn't
just a simple misunderstanding of a phrase going on here. Beck said:
"I cannot think of one cider apple that people should plant."
Reading the rest of his note, it seems clear that his meaning is "I cannot
think of JUST ONE cider apple [to plant]"--sort of "there is no single
silver bullet". But people are taking the statement as "I cannot think of
EVEN ONE cider apple [to plant]" as if there aren't any.
He follows this with noting that there isn't a definitive variety that we
should be planting. But we can try lots of them and see how we do. That
means trying in various places, too. As he said, it's too big a country
to nail one down. For example, Dabinett and Yarlington Mill are great,
but I can't grow them here. I can grow Kingston Black and Harrison.
It doesn't even make sense to go with just one variety. Remember,
"blending is the cidermaker's art".
Digressing, one of the reasons we started the Rocky Mountain Cider
Association (a trade organization) is that both the opportunities and the
challenges are different in this region than they are in New England, the
PNW, Great Lakes, etc. Horses for courses.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: what did he say?
From: William Lyon <xlyon@mac.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 23:13:20 -0600
My take on Mike Beck's email. I comment as a "silent partner"
(usually) in the 40,000 cider-apple tree orchard called Cider View in
Tieton, Washington. (That is, I'm probably wrong about any actual
details about growing apples!) FYI, some photos of that orchard here:
http://cidersnob.tumblr.com/post/129579801902/cider-view-orchard-in-tieton -wash
ington
Mike wrote:
> Rumor has it, I said don't plant cider apples... Well, It might of sounded
> like that.
I confess that I thought you said, without any qualifiers, that it made
absolutely no "financial sense" for a grower to plant cider apples. I
think you could actually make an argument for that view, but I'm happy
that's not what you really meant.
But before I go on let me just say that "financial sense" can mean a
lot more than just comparing absolute returns on investments. Usually
(but not always) an investor is interested in making a decent profit,
but many times they are even more interested in how to get investments,
with even modest returns, that are uncorrelated to their other
investments. "Finance" often gets mixed up with politics, social
goals (e.g. slow money), or even religion (e.g. Mormon disaster
prepping) and so the term "financial sense" can be a lot more
complicated than it first appears.
A grower, of course, has to pay his workers and put food on the table
too - but still, if he's a large enough grower with his own
"portfolio" of crops, then he may also be more interested in
diversifying into something like cider-apples than in planting what may
be a much more profitable, but already represented, type of apple/crop.
Disease resistance, blossom or harvest times, curiosity, her own
social/political/religious goals, all could mix in to make overall
financial sense. And, as a small grower I know in Colorado says - some
people just don't need that much money to live...
All of the above is just to say that there's always a better
investment. But diving into what "better" means is a big rabbit
hole.
> I think I may have sounded down on High Density plantings. Let me clarify,
> If I was in the business of putting the most beautiful fruit in a box to go
> to the packer, hands down that system gives you the tonnage x quality x
> early bearing to give you max return. For cider fruit I have to raise my
> eyebrow a little bit. At $25K an acre and summer long maintenance
> employees it makes the cost of entry for processing fruit extremely high. I
> think I could plant a semi-dwarf orchard at ¼ the cost and less maintenance
> cost per year.
I've seen some very ugly cider apples (scab, insects, etc) growing in
a high-density system. And I've never heard my partners (or anyone)
advocating high-density cider-apple growing for the beautiful/external
advantages (which I assume would be due to better light penetration &
more uniform spraying.) But if you accept that you can entirely rethink
spraying schedules with cider fruit, then you're just focused on
growing as much fruit as possible in the space available. (Which I
leave to the readers to decide if that's a good thing or not.)
In my case, it looks like we will exceed $25k/acre over the first 4
years, that's "all-in" including land costs, removing an old Red
Delicious orchard, and starting from scratch, drip & sprinklers, wind
machines, etc. So, yeah, big up-front cost. Regarding maintenance, in
this case the manager has a permanent staff working hundreds of other
acres (also various high-density systems) and hence, sufficient capacity
to work the new orchard while supplying more income to the manager and
more stability for the permanent staff. (An economy of scale.) Your
point is obviously more relevant for smaller operations. There's also
a guaranteed buyer with an arms-length cider company - but we should
have plenty of apples to sell to cider makers throughout the western US.
> They do not plant cider fruit in any established cider
> industry around the world in high density systems; why are we being the
> guinea pigs here in America?
Because we can? Seriously, it's almost a blank slate in America. And
Americans are innovators, right? Might as well see if the systems that
work well for large scale growing of dessert apples can be adapted for
cider apples. Seems like a worthwhile thing to know, even if it ends
badly. Again, this is relevant mainly to very large-scale operations, if
you've got the space to plant a low-density orchard of your desired
capacity, then, sure, why wouldn't you?
> I question fruit quality as well. I am sure
> fruit from these systems will be pretty to look at compared to same from
> standard systems but will it have the internal factors we desire in the
> cellar?
This is about the only thing I worry about. Not just whether high
density systems, per-se, affect the "internal" quality but all
terroir-related issues, nitrogen content, etc. Again, we had the luxury
of a test orchard to get some initial ideas about varieties and their
traits, but the jury is really out until the trees are somewhat mature
and producing a consistent crop. We're never going to know until
someone tries it.
> So am I
> down on high density?, nope, use it where it makes financial sense to do so.
Exactly. Keeping in mind that "financial sense" can be complicated.
> Did I sound like we should not be asking growers to plant large blocks of
> cider fruit? I hope it did come out that way. We are not there yet, we do
> not know what to ask for and have to many questions to take on that kind of
> risk.
We've taken the risk at Cider View. Another risk - many big growers
make use of crop insurance; something you can't get for an
unknown/unproven crop. Many others are taking the risk at a smaller
level. We'll get there. The number of large growers willing to take
such a risk are probably limited to what I call the true "cider
believers" - I think they really need to have faith in the eventual
market, no way around that.
> I also wonder if the cider market is ready for it, the vast majority
> of cider is still made from syrup. (Market ?)
Yes, and here I'm running pretty much on faith. Let's all do our
part to evangelize cider made with cider-apples, please!
> You should be asking your
> grower, after doing your own exhaustive research to plant/graft a handful
> of variety x and see how they work or if you have your own cidery and have
> the ground, plant test plots to see what works.
100% agree.
> I guess I should have stated prior to speaking that I really do not know
> what I am doing, I have way more questions than answers as it pertains to
> cider growing. I have had things in the ground for a while, been making
> cider for a while, my way is my way, not necessarily the right way. So do
> I say "do not plant cider apples"... no, please do plant them and lets learn
> and share together.
Thanks, Mike. Keep doing what you're doing, even if you don't know
what that is - because it's working really well!
Bill Lyon
------------------------------
Subject: 11th Annual Great Lakes International Cider & Perry Competition
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 10:13:23 -0500
Only 3 weeks left to register your entries for the 11th Annual Great Lakes
International Cider and Perry Competition (GLINTCAP), the largest cider
competition in North America and one of the largest in the world. Entry
registration will close on Monday, April 4th at 11:59pm EDT. Entries must be
received by Monday, April 11th.
Visit www.glintcap.org for complete details.
Confirmed judges for this year include the following cidermakers, owners,
authors, bloggers, and other industry members.
JULIAN TEMPERLEY
Somerset Cider Brandy Company and Burrow Hill Cider
Somerset, England
NEIL MACDONALD
Orchard Pig
Somerset, England
STEVE WOOD
Farnum Hill Ciders
New Hampshire
NICOLE LEIBON
Farnum Hill Ciders
New Hampshire
CHARLES MCGONEGAL
AeppelTreow Winery & Distillery
Wisconsin
DAN YOUNG
Tandem Cider
Michigan
BRYAN ULBRICH
Left Foot Charley
Michigan
JEN MACKEY
Taproot Cider House
Michigan
CHRIS HAWORTH
West Avenue Cider Company
Ontario
BRIAN RUTZEN
The Northman
Illinois
AMBROSIA BOROWSKI
The Northman
Illinois
DAN PUCCI
Wassail
New York
NICK GUNN
Wandering Aengus Ciderworks
Oregon
DAVE TAKUSH
2 Towns Ciderhouse
Oregon
RYAN BURK
Angry Orchard Cider Company
New York
BRENT MILES
Seattle Cider Company
Washington
DAVE WHITE
Whitewood Cider Co.
Washington
ANDREW BYERS
Finnriver Farm & Cidery
Washington
BRAD PAGE
Colorado Cider Company
Colorado
SCOTT DONOVAN
BlackBird Cider Works
New York
GIDON COLL
Original Sin Hard Cider
New York
SETH BOEVE
Virtue Cider
Michigan
ROB FISK
Wyndfall Cyder
Minnesota
MIKE TODD
Coffin Ridge Winery
Ontario
BEN WATSON
Cider, Hard and Sweet: History, Traditions, and Making Your Own
New Hampshire
DARLENE HAYES
Cider Cocktails -- Another Bite of the Apple
California
MEREDITH COLLINS
Along Came a Cider
New York
BILL LYON
Cider Snob Notes
New Mexico
RON SANSONE
Drinking Cider
Connecticut
CRYSTAL LUXMORE
Experience Beer
Ontario
Gary Awdey
President, Great Lakes Cider & Perry Competition
------------------------------
Subject: Spanish cider (sidra) varieties
From: David Pickering <davidp@cideroz.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 19:53:40 +1100
A two part question.
Does anyone have a contact within whichever Spanish authority controls
the exporting of propagation material of cider apple varieties?
Similarly, some of the Spanish varieties of interest are in the Geneva
collection. The Geneva catalogue does carry an email address for the
curator but is this the correct approach when the request is likely to
be on a government to government basis?
Cheers - David
David Pickering - "Linden Lea" 681 Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800
http://www.cideroz.com/
http://www.cideraustralia.org.au/
davidp@cideroz.com
mobile: 042 727 1477
home: 02 6365 5275
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End of Cider Digest #2020
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