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Cider Digest #2011
Subject: Cider Digest #2011, 7 January 2016
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #2011 7 January 2016
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Green bell pepper / MethoxyPyrazine ("Josh Klatt")
pesticide residue in apple juice (Bear Swamp Orchard)
RE: Cider Digest #2010, 31 December 2015 ("Richard Anderson")
Re: pesticides/organic (Claude Jolicoeur)
pesticide/organic #2010 ("Mike Beck")
Insecticides in apple juice/cider (Paul Weideman)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Green bell pepper / MethoxyPyrazine
From: "Josh Klatt" <josh@joshklatt.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 15:47:37 -0700
A batch of my cider this year has a distinct green bell pepper aroma --
the culprit (I think) is methoxypyrazine (MP) , specifically
2-methoxy-3-isobutylpyrazine (IBMP).
according to wine literature, this can emerge from 2 different sources:
1. fruit (under-ripe) : the grapes produce MPs at berry set, but the
MPs steadily decline as the fruit ripens.
2. Multi-Colored Asian Lady Beetle : these suckers secrete MPs as a
defense mechanism, so catching a couple in the press will contaminate
the batch. We've got plenty of these bugs in our area.
I'd like to determine the source of my MPs and prevent it in the future.
As I understand, there is no chance getting rid of it once you've got
it. Is that right ?
Has anyone had experience finding Green Bell Pepper aroma in their cider
? Do apples produce MPs like grapes ? or is my problem due to insect
contamination ?
Josh Klatt
Ohio River Valley
+1-917-365-9075
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Subject: pesticide residue in apple juice
From: Bear Swamp Orchard <apples@bearswamporchard.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 19:49:15 -0500
Dear Robert,
We are sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but here goes. We don't know of
any data on pesticide residues in fermented cider, but there is
USDA data on pesticides in apple juice, at
http://whatsonmyfood.org/food.jsp?food=AJ
In addition, there is a study showing that pesticide residues show up in
90% of French wines tested. Here is the link to that study:
http://www.decanter.com/wine-news/french-study-finds-pesticide-residues-in--90-o
f-wines-21199/
<http://www.thedailymeal.com/are-there-pesticides-your-wine?_mobile=1>.
There are a number of other studies showing pesticide residues in wines,
especially fungicides. So it is likely that pesticides are found in hard
cider as well. There is a lack of information comparing pesticide
residues in unfermented juice to fermented juice, so whether fermenting
REDUCES pesticide residues is unknown as far as we know. The studies
showing residues in both grape juice and wine could be compared to get
some sense of that, though the samples are different (good USDA data on
fruit, no US data on wine).
The good news is, cider apples do not need to be sprayed much, since
aesthetics are unimportant. If we can just get folks to grow apples for
cider, it would be easier and cheaper for the grower, and better fruit
(in many ways) for the fermenter. In particular, late-season fungicides
that are meant to combat summer diseases and allow for long storage are
totally unnecessary for cider apples. These are the pesticides that show
up in the highest percentages in both apple juice and wine.
Best, Jen and Steve
Subject: Insecticides in apple juice/cider
From: robert stelpstra <rstelpstra@hotmail.com =
<mailto:rstelpstra@hotmail.com>>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 20:37:14 +0000
My own very delicious cider has now become my foremost beverage of choice. I
drink lots of it. But I wish it were organic. Unfortunately I have to buy
my juice from a commercial orchard and, according to numerous nutrition
reports, it probably contains quite high levels of insecticides/pesticides.
I would like to know if anyone can answer the following questions: What
happens to insecticides throughout the juicing/fermentation process as
the apple is transformed into hard cider? Does it stay in solution? Does
it settle in the lees? Some of both? Does fermentation do anything to it,
diminish it's toxic effects, enhance it?
Any help in answering these questions would be greatly appreciated.
R. Stelpstra
- ------------------------------
Bear Swamp Orchard & Cidery
Jennifer Williams & Steve Gougeon
Ashfield, MA=20
www.bearswamporchard.com
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #2010, 31 December 2015
From: "Richard Anderson" <rhanderson@centurytel.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 17:28:31 -0800
You might try contacting the Northwest Cider Association(Washington, Oregon,
Idaho and British Columbia) a number of BC cidermakers are members. Perhaps
they will allow you to post.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: pesticides/organic
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoliprsf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2016 13:03:14 -0500
In Cider Digest #2010, 31 December 2015, Mike Beck wrote:
> Subject: pesticides/organic
>
> I am very curious why you want your apples/juice to be "organic".
> [snip] There seems to be a lot of
> confusion about organic, many people think they do not get sprayed with
> chemicals, more often from what I have seen it is more chemical, not less.
> [snip] I also am aware that you can grow apples without chemicals at all.
> In a back yard or very small orchard you may be able to
> have great success. (especially with the right varieties) I have yet to see
> any kind of larger orchard grow fruit for a profit with a no spray program.
I would simply want to add a bit to this. Although I do agree with most
of what Mike wrote, and in particular when I hear such things as organic
apples that have been sprayed 50 times during the season (yes, this is
fifty sprays of often toxic materials that happen to be approved by
certification organisms)... Needless to say, I wouldn't want to use such
"organic" fruit for making my cider! But not all organic apples are
grown this way, and there are many growers that produce organic fruit
with minimal spraying.
However, contrary to Mike, I have seen a number of successful commercial
cider operations where the fruit is grown without any pesticide
whatsoever. We see these mostly in Europe, and these operations do not
attempt to grow apples for market - only cider apples are grown, usually
in traditional orchards with standard trees. True, the yield of such
orchards is low compared to the yield of modern bush orchards, but
production cost is also minimal, and it is possible to balance
positively at the end of the year...
Claude Jolicoeur
Author, /The New Cider Maker's Handbook
/http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/
http://www.chelseagreen.com/the-new-cider-makers-handbook/
------------------------------
Subject: pesticide/organic #2010
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 14:38:23 -0500
Meant not to offend organic growers in last post. More to the point that
Organic growing is a tough row to hoe, especially here in MI. I feel bad
sometimes all the extra work they put in and many times they do not get as
much extra return that they put in it. Some regions are probably more
suited to organic, We have high pest and disease pressure here. I should
also state that I am no nozzle head either(IPM practices). I never want to
spray, it is expensive and compacts your ground. We use many non-spray
controls and organic chemistry where it makes financial sense. With
especially high fire blight pressure it is a difficult leap to full organic
for our own orchards. I grow other crops as well, we have 5 acres of
Asparagus that is grown organically, but they just have an exclusive organic
spray program. I used to raise blueberry and raspberry organically until
Spotted Wing Drospholia said hello to Michigan. I believe in organic where
it makes sense financially.
IMHO
M. Beck
St. John's MI
------------------------------
Subject: Insecticides in apple juice/cider
From: Paul Weideman <paul.weideman@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:22:54 +0000 (UTC)
Robert,
Based on my research your concerns are justified. Read the links I
included below about pesticide residues and conventional vs organic
nutrition in produce. Not all organic growers use the sprays that
Mike listed in his response. I use zero synthetic sprays on my farm
with fantastic results. Running poultry under my trees is an amazing
insecticide. Companion planting herbs and wildflowers attracts beneficial
insects that prey on the bad as well. I use plant based sprays mentioned
in Michael Phillips books THE APPLE GROWER and THE HOLISTIC ORCHARD for
systemic tree health. Personally, I avoid neem oils because I am concerned
about killing beneficial insects. One could actually drink a quart of the
sprays I use. In fact, nettle tea is quite good for you. The best advice
I can share with you is, know your farmer. Find an organic grower that is
not trying to dupe the public as Mike believes. I chose to farm organically
because I don't want synthetic chemicals, pesticides, herbicides or any
other ridiculous carcinogenic chemicals in my food. Plus, I will argue
with anyone that organic sweet corn is unrivaled. I grow organic hay,
vegetables, apples and raise livestock organically and I can do it cheaper
than conventional farmers as well because I build soil health over years
and not with annual chemical injections. Spraying in the orchard is only 1
part of maintaining healthy trees and apples. I encourage you to do your
own research and pick up Michael's books. I believe modern conventional
farmers are too reliant on synthetic chemicals. Generations have forgotten
how to build soil and root health without synthetic fertilizers or grow
healthy disease resistant crops without the help of Monsanto or DuPont. Of
course Monsanto and DuPont have convinced the conventional grower that
their products are safe and residues are non existent, it's their business.
http://www.ewg.org/release/apples-top-dirty-dozen-list-fifth-year-row
http://www.eatingwell.com/food_news_origins/green_sustainable/organic_or_not_is_
organic_produce_healthier_than_conventional
Paul WeidemanMirror Lake OrganicsFencerow CideryImlay City, MI
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End of Cider Digest #2011
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