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Cider Digest #2006
Subject: Cider Digest #2006, 6 December 2015
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #2006 6 December 2015
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #2004, 27 November 2015 (Andrew's Personal Mail)
many Kudos to Dick Dunn (Jay Hersh)
Crown Cap vs Cork (paul baker)
Re: UK Reflections on CD #2000 (Michael)
Flash Pasteurizing ("Richard Anderson")
Phenolics, Flavonoids etc (Andrew Lea)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #2004, 27 November 2015
From: Andrew's Personal Mail <andrew.leighton@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 20:38:41 +0000
Hi Dick,
That was a wonderful read, thanks so much for taking the time to compile
those articles.
Regarding musings on whether to change CD, they remind me of strategic
reviews we constantly have in my day job (I work for a business to business
news provider). It always circles back to us concluding that our customers
like it kept simple. Time poor executives who find value in just scanning our
daily newsletters in five minutes and then getting on with their day. No
frills, keep it a simple list of news, don't expect me to browse your
website is the order of the day. Of course, that frustrates the hell out
of the owners who want to offer our customers more complex and expensive
services. But you can't lead a horse to water as they say! We all have a
"raison d'etre" so we might as well stick to it, whatever that is.
Best,
Andrew
------------------------------
Subject: many Kudos to Dick Dunn
From: Jay Hersh <jsh@doctorbeer.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2015 11:42:01 -0500
Hi all,
In follow up to Dick's posting of "Janitor's musings on 21 years" I
wanted to express my deepest gratitude to Dick. I never dreamed that
when I started this digest back in the early 1990s while a staff
member at MIT working in a lab where I had access to servers and
could start hosting something like this that it would endure so long.
The fact that it has is solely to Dick having stepped up to take over
the hosting from me at a time when I was having medical issues which
caused me to change my career path and left MIT and, as a result, was
no longer able to continue hosting this forum. Over the years I've
seen this forum not only grow in size, but most especially improve in
content quality to far beyond what I could have antitipated.
I continue to enjoy reading and learning from this forum and thank
all those who contribute to it. Having recently relocated to a former
farm in VT which has at least a couple of dozen healthy heritage type
trees I anticipate being able to delve more deeply into cider making
again, though thanks to the folks who run Cider Days in central MA
I've never totally given it up. Only scaled back a bit for lack of
time, something I hope to now address :-).
So once again many, many thanks to Dick for his outstanding work to
keep this forum alive and going for over 2 decades now.
Sincerely,
Jay Hersh aka Dr. Beer (TM)
Cider Digest Founder
------------------------------
Subject: Crown Cap vs Cork
From: paul baker <paul.outlawspike@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 09:24:36 -0800
So currently I am planning on using Belgian Bottles with Crown Caps for my
ciders. Some will be carbonated and some still and I am trying to avoid
having two separate packaging set ups (capper and corker and caps and
corks, etc) I'd prefer to go one route and stick with that through and
through.
In the scientific sense an oxygen absorbing cap should prevent oxidation
and the seal should be good. But that is a lot of shoulds.
I wanted to see if anyone had gone that course and what they found worked
best.
Thank you for the help and Cheers!
------------------------------
Subject: Re: UK Reflections on CD #2000
From: Michael <michael@black-dog-consulting.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 13:46:13 -0600
I assume the closure of LARS was due to the now departed despot and not the
fine cider makers down the road who share the same name?
Either way, attempting to impede serious cider research has now moved to
the top of my list, "Terrible things what Thatcher done".
I echo Andrew Lea's recollections of cider in the UK 20 years ago and
remember heading to Cotham Porter Stores, The Orchard Inn and The
Coronation Tap to find ciders not associated with archery. On the shelves
of the "offie" things were much the same, however some Bristolian corner
shops and the occasional post-office would keep a barrel to fill whatever
receptacles clientele would arrive with!
- --
Best regards,
Michael Petch
Black-Dog-Consulting.com <http://black-dog-consulting.com/>
------------------------------
Subject: Flash Pasteurizing
From: "Richard Anderson" <rhanderson@centurytel.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 21:38:24 -0800
Flash pasteurizing seems reasonable at first glance, however when you
consider the equipment cost and risk not so much. In a flash system you have
the risk of post contamination points as you bottle and cap the pasteurized
cider. Unless you can eliminate these contamination points a good solution
is in bottle pasteurization. Large producers may opt for a tunnel system,
small producers a bath system. In both systems the bottled and capped cider
is pasteurized. This is why we go on periodically about how to determine and
measure the Pasteurization Units(PU's). While there are variations, there is
a science to it, basically heat kills. Bath systems can be built reasonably
with off the shelf hardware as opposed to expensive proprietary tunnel or
flash systems. Carbonation is problematic, heat and expanding gases and
attendant foaming at fill. My process is filter, carbonate, chill, bottle,
cap and pasteurize . A number of Digesters have gone down this road and will
have their opinions.
------------------------------
Subject: Phenolics, Flavonoids etc
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 13:49:37 +0000
Leif wrote:
> Who here has experience/knowledge about the location of an apples' phenolic
> compounds (skin? pulp? both?)
I do have some professional experience. You will find some information
on my website
http://cider.org.uk/tannin.htm and also a presentation here
http://cider.org.uk/phenolics_in_cider_apples.pdf
However, neither deal specifically with the spatial location of apple
phenolics. Most apple phenolics are present throughout the flesh, as you
say, and the only ones uniquely associated with apple peel are the very
pale yellow flavonol gycosides (quercetin derivatives) and the red
anthocyanins (in red skinned apples). Neither of these are important to
most cidermakers hence they are rarely mentioned. It is true (my
unpublished data) that apple peels do contain between 3 and 10 times as
much in the way of catechins and procyanidins (true tannins) as the
flesh, but once you take the flesh to peel ratio into account the
potential yield is not great.
> I'm curious about maceration of ground apples prior to pressing for the
> express purpose of extracting more phenolics (namely of the flavonoid
> variety) to both enhance antioxidant properties in the juice,
I don't believe that sort of extraction actually happens. I have done
some unpublished work on this for a private client and it turns out you
can only get significant peel extraction if you use boiling water,
cell-degrading enzymes or organic solvents. It is mostly the flavonol
glycosides that increase and the relative gain in true tannins
(catechins and procyanidins) is not very much. That's because they are
already present in the fruit flesh. There is also a large cultivar
effect - some cultivars have relatively far more phenolics in the peel
than others (hence the 3x to 10x spread). You may like to look at this
paper for further published data
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf503379t
If you really want to maximise extraction of phenolics from apple peels,
the best thing is to extract the pressed pomace with boiling water,
enzymes or organic solvents, and add the extract back to the juice. I
have done this experimentally in a large juice factory but it's not the
sort of thing easily done and monitored by a hobbyist or small producer.
> I see the potential dangers being oxidation (which sadly too few seem to
> care about) and pectin setting somewhat. But it seems to me if done at a
> cool enough temperature (and perhaps under some CO2) this would mitigate
> the issues.
Oxidation is not a bad thing when pressing apples for cider. It develops
the necessary colour from polyphenol oxidation by the apple's own
polyphenoloxidase enzymes. It also allows development of aroma via the
fruit's own lipoxygenase system. Actually it is quite difficult to
inhibit this kind of oxidation because apples already contain a lot of
air. CO2 is unlikely to be enough. The most effective way is to trickle
SO2 solution over the apples as they are being milled, to inhibit all
the oxidising enzymes. The pulp and juice then remain water white. They
have more bitterness and astringency but almost zero aroma. Ciders made
in that way are very dull and characterless, IMHO. I know an Australian
commercial cidermaker who was for a while a passionate no-oxidation
producer and did that. But he's given it up now ;-)
Andrew Lea
near Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
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End of Cider Digest #2006
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