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Cider Digest #1930
Subject: Cider Digest #1930, 13 January 2015
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1930 13 January 2015
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
RE: Cider Digest #1928, 6 January 2015 (Aaron Mateychuk)
Question/Post for the Cider Digest ()
Attenuation (Eric Pennell)
Re: Bottle conditioning (Dick Dunn)
Re: cider digest questions (Dick Dunn)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1928, 6 January 2015
From: Aaron Mateychuk <amateychuk@lookoutfarm.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 12:47:41 +0000
Hello Fellow Cidermakers,
Subject: Reply to Peter, Charles, Tom, and Autumn (CD#1927)
First, let me introduce myself. A former professional beer brewer here
in MA for 23 plus years and getting the opportunity to step out of the
"beer" box and my comfort zone to make some wonderful cider for a change
of pace for this startup we are building right now. We should be open
for production soon within the following month. We intend to use mostly
our apples for our flagship from our 190 plus acre farm. We currently are
planting new cider varieties last year and in the following years.
Secondly, I constantly look forward to trying all your wonderful ciders
and hope to make some that is equally of the caliber of the many I've tried
form your various places! I am enjoy all your suggestions and frustrations
on here, and am learning a lot!
Regarding Peter Mitchell's response on Jan. 2, We are contemplating also with
the stability of shelf life and have looked into options of whether we filter
or not filter. Coming from the beer world, regimens are "tried and true"
tested for beer bottle conditioning and filtering or fining. I also wish
to use the least invasive means to make a 100% juiced cider that will be
back sweetened with our own local honey. Ha! I know... Good luck Aaron...!
I have used all all types of filtering and fining methods in the beer
world. Bottle aging also. I plan to do multiple racks at first to ease
the sediment as we will have the luxury of starting out slow. I plan to
use a gelatin based fining in multiple racks along with using a lenticular
filter before a brite tank. We have done test trials with pasteurization
and with great results. I'm just not a fan of the process though. Also,
I'm not looking to make the cider pristine bright as possible. Sediment
in bottles labeled "bottle conditioned" does not bother me too much as I
am experienced in how to pour a beer or cider in that fashion. I do agree
with Peter that the hardship for customers may be too much some times
but as customers become more educated in the beer and cider world they
will get the concept on how to pour it. Centrifuge or Cross filtration
are not options for most of us (but work well) but due to the demand
in the beer and wine world, the prices and size of units are coming way
down. We are looking into the lease and rental options of the units but
they are still to pricey at the moment.
Peter you can contact Chris Napoliantano at Advanced Chemical Solutions
(610-349-8616) for info, pricing and delivery of Peroxyacetic Acid. He as
good pricing and knowledge on brewing chemicals and I had been using PAA
and Chlorine Dioxide with great results in the beer world. He does supply
chemical titration kits along with training for them.
Last, I will be making bottle conditioned cider and dry cider varieties
also. I would like to sell enough of the flagship first to buy the extra
equipment to experiment down the road. Good luck to all of you and hope to
meet you all in the future. I am open to share any of my beer techniques
and knowledge and see what applies in the cider world with all of you!
sorry for the long-winded banter...
Sincerely,
Aaron Mateychuk
Lookout Farm Hard Cider
Cidermaster/Brewmaster
------------------------------
Subject: Question/Post for the Cider Digest
From: <Gary.A.Heck@wellsfargo.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 20:47:42 +0000
Eric,
Thanks for your post on the Cider Digest discussing carbonation levels
in cider and the tax implications. I have been concerned about this for
some time. I am building a new cidery in Iowa and expect to be selling
cider either later this year or in 2016. I am hoping you can answer a
question or two for me. How do you measure the amount of carbonation
in the cider to make sure you remain within the applicable legal limits?
You mention 1.99 units for example. Since I'm a small startup operator,
I am hoping expensive equipment will not be necessary. How do I regulate
how much carbonation I force into the cider? I haven't purchased a
brite tank for carbonating,...yet. I was hoping to get by a year or
so with carbonating in kegs and bottling or serving from those kegs.
Any suggestions, comments, or ideas are warmly welcome. Many thanks.
Gary A. Heck
------------------------------
Subject: Attenuation
From: Eric Pennell <ericlouispennell@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 11:37:13 -0600
Ideally, I would like to be able to ferment to complete dryness (SG 1.000)
and then back-sweeten or flavor depending on the style. With proper
oxygenation, higher yeast temps in the 70-72 F range, and the correct
amount of yeast pitched, what kind of attenuation should I realistically be
expecting? I am using yeast with attenuation ratings in the 63-70% and very
high flocculation, neither of which are helping my cause for complete
dryness.
If the end result was above my desired ABV, I could easily dilute with
water. But the scenario I am trying to avoid is falling short of the target
ABV and having a weak batch that I can't do anything with.
I've read rousing the solution can help. This is easy with 5g carboys, but
in a production setting it becomes a little tougher. Maybe run a loop from
one port to another on the same fermenter or transfer to a second tank? Is
100% attenuation to complete dryness even a possibility in a production
setting? Should I look for different yeasts that work "harder"?
If anyone has any advice or experience on the subject, it would be greatly
appreciated.
Eric Pennell
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bottle conditioning
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 18:32:15 -0700
Looking back through the last two CDs, David McEwan asked in 1928:
>...I want to bottle condition this latest batch ... [sweetener part
> snipped] ... And is 10g/l about right for the gasification?
Let's be clear on the question! That was in context of added priming sugar,
and 10 g/l of sugar gives around 3 volumes of CO2. That's fairly sparkling
but not excessive.
In CD 1929, Eric Pennel filled in some advice that if David wants to think
about commercial sales, he needs to keep in mind the US federal boundary
where tax increases dramatically. That is 3.92 g/l *OF* *CO2*. Different
measure than priming sugar! The funny federal number corresponds to 2
volumes of CO2.
Eric reasoned upward from the US tax boundary of 3.92 g/l to...
>...if this is just something you are playing with and don't plan to
> release, then I would carb in the 10g/L range you originally said.
But that mixes the units. 10g/l of CO2 is over 5 volumes, which is
well up into the Champagne range. You need heavy bottles for that
(no beer bottles!) and you're likely to find that amount of carbonation
difficult to manage. For example you're likely to get foaming/gushing
due to any solids left in suspension.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: cider digest questions
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 20:58:15 -0700
In the last CD, SMB Weber asked a fair number of questions about cider vs mead
matters. I'll try to pick up a few...
cider first then mead:
> I think that, to become palatable and interesting, the first of these
> drinks doesn't like much oxygen during fermentation because it encourages
> the wrong things, while the inverse is true for the second, it likes a lot
> more oxygen during fermentation...
Both require oxygen at the start...yeast need O2 to get going. Perhaps
what you're seeing/reading is that apple juice generally has plenty of
exposure to air and splashing about through the milling/pressing process.
But a mead must doesn't have nearly so much, especially if you use a heat
treatment that drives off a lot of O2, so it's helpful to restore some O2.
>... Other broad differences seem to be that
> fermenting cider likes wine-cave temps, more or less, while mead likes much
> higher ones.
Ciders generally develop better flavors, retain character, and develop
fewer off-flavors when fermented cool, yes. Mead can take it somewhat
warmer, but be careful. Too-high fermentation temperatures can be -one-
source of estery, harsh characters which take a loooong time to age out of
a mead. (If I hear a meadmaker mention "Listerine taste" I say "cool
it!".) For the combination, cyser, I'd stay below 70 F in any case, and
I'd stay closer to 60 F.
> If we created cysers of various cider-mead proportions when each is racked
> after primary fermentation, will the wild yeasts continue to ferment the
> new mixture, if most of the cultivated yeasts have finished at the time
> that you combine them?...
Cultivated yeast won't "finish" while there are fermentable sugars left,
unless the alcohol level is so high as to shut them down. But in that case
the wild yeasts will also be well done-in.
Realize also that if you have a variety of wild yeasts present in the
cider, by the time the fermentation is getting finished there's likely
going to be only a strain or two of S. cerevisiae left. The others will
have made their contribution but then given up.
> So other questions: do wild yeasts found on apples like honey?...
What's not to like about honey? :-)
Honey contains a mixture of sugars which are nearly all (by measure) readily
fermentable, so it's essentially the same story as with the apple juice.
(Actually, most of the wild yeasts for cider are built up on the equipment;
there's not a lot to start with on the fruit itself.)
>...what do
> they do when they meet honey, assuming they do not give way to spoilage?
They'll go after it. One real challenge in fermenting mead is the lack of
nutrients for the yeast. Normally a cider has adequate nutrients, so when
you combine the two it -should- go well.
> More questions: What temps should be used for secondary fermentation of
> cysers; calibrated to proportionality of cider/mead? Is there a rule of
> thumb ratio or anything similar?
It's not a proportionality, no. If you combine cider and mead, you want a
temperature from that point onward which is suitable to either one alone.
Not so warm as to run the fermentation too fast, generate excess of higher
alcohols, etc. Not so cool as to have the fermentation "stick".
At what point do you anticipate combining the cider and mead? (And why not
"right at the start"?)
> Final questions: how easy/difficult is it to isolate wild yeasts so that
> they could be kept and used when needed; is there a rule of thumb about how
> many kinds of wild yeast are found in different orchards? non-scientist
> primer on basic life and strains of wild yeasts?
Isolating wild yeasts is a laboratory exercise, petri dishes and microscopes
and such but not esoteric. The thing to understand is the "progression of
yeasts" story: A wild-yeast fermentation in cider involves various types
which get going, work for a bit, then die off or go dormant. If you tried
to isolate from the lees near the end of fermentation, you wouldn't get the
whole spectrum.
How many kinds? 37. :-)
I think I wouldn't worry so much on strains of wild yeasts. If you do get
a wild yeast fermentation right at the outset of making cider, it's more
likely to be from yeast in your fermentation environment than from your
orchard. (E.g., do you start your fermentations in a kitchen where you
also bake bread?)
And really, the best advice when starting out is to use a good cultured
yeast. Get the basic chops of cidermaking down. Same for mead. THEN
start tweaking. Wild yeast can be finicky, and if you wait a while for a
wild fermentation, you are exposing the musts to risk of contamination
which you may not yet be ready to control.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1930
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