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Cider Digest #1979
Subject: Cider Digest #1979, 17 July 2015
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1979 17 July 2015
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1977, 8 July 2015 (Info)
Re: Cider Digest #1977, 8 July 2015 (Nathan Shackelford)
Re: Gala/Jon Question from Paul (Dick Dunn)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1977, 8 July 2015
From: Info <info@cidery.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 23:07:12 -0400
It is not dessert apples.
Your cider taste watery and flat from reduction. More importantly how
does your cider smell? If little to no aromatics your cider is reduced (
or rubbery, cabagy, shitty, skunky...)
The mouth feel texture and weight of your cider are being effected also
by this as well as loss of co2. The reduction is decreasing aromatics so
you are getting little retro nasal aromatics in the mouth leaving your
cider tasting flat. Over this time you have also loss bound co2 through
plastic. This is also making your cider feel flat.
Do copper trials and give the cider some oxygen via racking or a sparging
stone. The nose is much more important in white wine and cider production
than flavor. It is also possible that you have oxidized the wine if no
so2 was used for storage this too could decrease aromatic/flavor.
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1977, 8 July 2015
From: Nathan Shackelford <nathanandcarol@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 08:18:06 -0500
In reply to Paul Rasch:
It's possible that some of the "flat" flavor you are describing is from
reduced acidity. I have had a few ciders that underwent malo-lactic
fermentation lost some of their zing, and tasted insipid. Now, when I
have a cider with optimal tartness at racking I add 30ppm SO2 to prevent
mlf. If it's too tart and harsh at racking, I am okay with mlf during aging.
Dessert apples can make good cider, but the handling and process may include
different yeast, etc to get the most flavor out of them. Pay attention to
your blend of apples, and use more types. Use fruit from unfertilized, wild,
or neglected trees for a juice that will ferment less quickly/ completely.
I only have access to desert fruit, but have made some good tasting ciders
by adding crabs and wild fruit, and by paying attention to some of the
things mentioned above.
Good luck!
P.S. If your cider is flat tasting because of lack of acid, some malic acid
can be added to correct it. You don't want to waste that much cider.
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Subject: Re: Gala/Jon Question from Paul
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:28:27 -0600
Curtis Sherrer <redbrickmill@yahoo.com> wrote various suggestions to Paul
Rasch. I've a bone to pick on one of them:
...
> Also, there is a reason why no serious grape wine (or cider) maker uses
> plastic for fermentors or storage...
Simply not true.
If I had a quid for every plastic fermenter I've seen at -good- craft cider
and perry makers, I'd buy a round for the entire Cider Digest list!
One style is so common, people joke about "blue oak".
Larger fermentations commonly use IBC's or "totes"--the cube-like plastic
containers in metal cages.
The Speidel orange-top fermenters/storage are increasingly popular at
smaller scale.
>...Plastic is oxygen permeable, more or less depending on the type of plastic.
(I add: and the wall thickness)
Yes, but the lessons there are to use a proper container and don't keep it
in there too long. Oxygen passes slower through thicker walls. Larger
containers are affected more slowly because the surface:volume ratio is
lower. Also remember that the yeast are actually consuming oxygen during
active fermentation.
>...Get stainless tanks or use barrels.
Ahem. Barrels are permeable too.
Stainless is great but it is expensive. A common choice is plastic for
fermentation and short-term use, stainless for longer periods.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1979
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