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Cider Digest #1884
Subject: Cider Digest #1884, 2 July 2014
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1884 2 July 2014
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Apple Juice Concentrate (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #1883, 27 June 2014 (Lyn Thompson)
Re: Cider Digest #1883, 27 June 2014 (Stephen Wood)
Re: Apple Juice Concentrate (Dick Dunn)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Apple Juice Concentrate
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 11:14:16 +0100
On 27/06/2014 22:38, Eric Pennell wrote:
>
> My question is whether or not to use their regular 13 Brix juice, or their
> 70 Brix concentrate.
Have you considered how you would keep the 13 Brix single strength juice
from fermenting spontaneously on the journey from WA to OK?
>
> If AJC is used, I would dilute to the desired Brix and stop fermentation
> at a point to leave behind some natural sugar in order to avoid using
> sweeteners pre or post fermentation.
How do you plan to do 'stop fermentation' and keep the product stable?
Chilling and crossflow filtration of the part-fermented cider, followed
by pasteurisation or sterile filtration are the usual ways to do this
commercially nowadays.
>
> Using AJC has very important advantages for me, including shipping, storage
> and overall cost. But I'm not sure if the final product would take a hit
> in flavor or quality. In simple terms, it seems taking water out, then
> putting it back in should have little to no effect. But, things are
> rarely simple.
It depends in part on how the conc is handled and stored. In a perfect
world, fresh juice is probably better. But all the major UK cidermakers
now use AJC (mostly from in-house production) as their primary raw
material because of its quasi-stability for long term storage. The main
problems with AJC are continued Maillard browning which can give extra
colour and cooked flavour and can generate yeast inhibitors, and the
presence of osmotolerant yeasts like Zygosaccharomyces bailii which are
sulphite-resistant and can become a problem in down-stream processing.
Chilling immediately after manufacture followed by proper storage at 4C
goes a long way to mitigate these problems. There are other potential
problems eg to do with inadequate depectinisation of the juice before
evaporation leading to later arabinan hazes, but any good AJC processor
should be on top of these.
Modern juice evaporators normally have an 'aroma-recovery' stage which
collects the volatiles that would otherwise by lost under vacuum. You
might discuss with your supplier whether these are included in the deal
you strike with them. Here in the UK the aroma fraction is now generally
added back to the ciders made from those concentrates.
Just a few things to think about .....
Andrew Lea,
nr Oxford UK
www.cider.org.uk
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1883, 27 June 2014
From: Lyn Thompson <thompson.llt@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:24:48 -0400
In regards to used oak barrels in the NYC area, I would highly suggest a
road trip to the beautiful Fingerlakes area of upstate NY! It's probably a
5 hr drive but its absolutely beautiful country and would make an awesome
vacation. I'm guessing a few phone calls to some of the many winery's and
you would have what you're looking for. Google will find you many sites
but here is a link to get you started:
http://www.fingerlakeswinecountry.com/searchwineries.aspx
If you can wait until fall we also have some great apple orchards in the
Lafayette valley (south of Syracuse) and some along the lakes as well.
Hope you can make the drive. Its well worth it.
Best,
Lyn
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1883, 27 June 2014
From: Stephen Wood <swood@farnumhillciders.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 14:59:16 -0400
Dick,
Perfect answer, thanks. We now have a new word in our vocabulary. We will
continue to ask for feathered maidens, and forever after today, pank with
pleasure. I'd write more, but I need to go find a female end for a
driveshaft -- I can't get the males to hook up with each other.
SW.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Apple Juice Concentrate
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 15:58:26 -0600
Eric Pennell <ericlouispennell@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am in the planning process of a production cidery in Oklahoma City. I
> am a bit land locked, if you will, from an apple or juice source near
> me and have been in talks with a Washington company who could provide a
> consistent supply and blend of local apple juice.
I'm curious to back up a bit and ask why you're starting a cidery there.
The answer(s) to that might inform your juice needs. Are you looking to
make a fairly generic cider, or some specific (and possibly unusual)
product? Since it won't be a "local" product in any usual sense of the
word, is there a particular "hook" in your marketing?
See, if it's a generic cider, you have more options for juice sources, and
you'll be less critical, but then the almighty dollar takes over and you're
competing against the mega-producers. But if you have a particular niche
in mind, you may need to source particular types of juice.
Is your WA supplier producing juice specifically for cidermaking, or just
apple juice?
> My question is whether or not to use their regular 13 Brix juice, or their
> 70 Brix concentrate. They use a thermal vacuum process to concentrate
> the juice, no additives or anything weird...
You really need to try test batches with each, if at all possible. This
would let you factor in any degradation in the final product due to the
concentration process. You might also check for any potential problems
due to transportation or storage--which would presumably affect the
single-strength juice more.
> If AJC is used, I would dilute to the desired Brix and stop fermentation
> at a point to leave behind some natural sugar in order to avoid using
> sweeteners pre or post fermentation.
Stop fermentation how? ...and keep it from restarting how? Solvable
questions both, but don't neglect them.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1884
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