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Cider Digest #1811
Subject: Cider Digest #1811, 21 September 2013
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1811 21 September 2013
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: YAN levels in juice (Claude Jolicoeur)
RE: YAN levels in juice (Brent Miles)
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Subject: Re: YAN levels in juice
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoliprsf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 14:12:25 -0400
In Cider Digest #1810, 18 September 2013
>Subject: YAN levels in juice
>From: Ron Miller <jolly_miller@bigpond.com>
>Wondering what the expected Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen (YAN) level
>should be for apple juice for good fermentation into hard cider? I
>understand with wine it's around 200 mg/l. Is it the same for hard
>cider? Also is the level different for "old world cider" and "new
>world cider"? What's the effect of using too much yeast nutrient (eg
>DAP) on the taste/flavour of the finished product?
Ron,
From data I have been able to gather, the normal range of most
cider-apple juice would be around 80 to 120 mg/L of YAN, which is
about right for a good slow to medium speed complete fermentation. If
you have more than that you are likely to get fermentations that
could be viewed as too fast to obtain maximum flavor (Naturally, this
is quite arbitrary... Some cider makers will prefer higher levels of
YAN to insure faster fermentations).
I have seen that the YAN level from commercially grown eating apples
from fertilized dwarf rootstocks may be as high as 300 mg/L.
Claude
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Subject: RE: YAN levels in juice
From: Brent Miles <brent@seattlecidercompany.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:44:35 -0700
Ron,
Here's some information I got from Rebekka Swanson at ScottLabs (who is a
great resource for all things fermentation, and I believe is their in-house
cider specialist, rather than just a wine person who knows a bit about
cider).
The YAN for our cider is typically around 76 mg/L. Because we ferment with
an ale yeast at higher temps (65-68) the yeast does need a lot of nutrient.
Working with her I've determined a yeast nutrient regimen that, though
somewhat costly, leaves no H2S, which for me is worth it.
My regimen is:
40 g/hl Fermaid O at pitch
20 g/hl Fermaid K at end of lag phase / start of visible fermentation
20 g/hl Fermaid K at around 1/4 sugar depletion
20 g/hl DAP at around 1/3 sugar depletion.
>From what Rebekka told me and from what I've researched, DAP is fine, but
you don't want to use it early on, as it is like crack for the yeast and if
you pitch it too early they will not stop seeking out the nitrogen present
in the juice and just seek out the "fake" DAP nitrogen.
Below are her comments about my regimen, and about the relation of yeast
nutrients to YAN more generally:
Historically a goal YAN of 250 is ideal, and the typical goal is to
supplement with DAP to reach that number. Really you can ferment as low as
180mg/N but that can cause unwanted stress on some yeast.****
25g/hL of DAP gives you 50mgN/L****
25g/hL of Fermaid K gives you 25mgN/L****
Same dosage of Fermaid O 10mgN/L****
** **
Considering those numbers above with the protocol you have below you would
have to add about 75g/hL of DAP to get up to 250 mgN/L. Over the past few
years Lallemand has been doing a significant amount of research on the type
of nutrition you are using vs. just the quantity of N something is
contributing. What they have found is that using complex nutrients like
Fermaid K and organic sources of nitrogen like the Fermaid O you tend to
get a little more bang for your buck for the amount of N that product is
contributing. For example: when you look at Fermaid O it looks like an
insignificant amount of Nitrogen, especially for how much you would need to
add to get the same N as straight DAP but what they have found is that
because you are dealing with amino sources of N that that N is about 3-5
times as effective as the same volume of N contained in DAP. By that
research I usually mentally triple the amount of YAN it think I am
contributing when using Fermaid O. So for your same protocol I would say
you are starting with 76 mgN/L + ~25 mgN/L Fermaid O (20g/hL) + 25 mgN/L
(Fermaid K) = 126mgN/L so you would still need 62g/hL of DAP to get up to
250mgN/L ****
That is still a pretty hefty amount of DAP you would need. You might find
you don't have to hit that number if you bump up the Fermaid K to a total
of 40g/hL or include another addition of Fermaid O.
- --
*Brent Miles*
Operations Manager
Seattle Cider Company
(970) 214-9822
brent@seattlecidercompany.com
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End of Cider Digest #1811
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