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Cider Digest #1739
Subject: Cider Digest #1739, 15 October 2012
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1739 15 October 2012
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: Juice Analysis Question (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Yeast and carbonation questions (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Cider Digest #1738, 11 October 2012 (Rick Hastings)
heritage varieties suitable for cider (David & Melissa Dobernigg)
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Subject: Re: Juice Analysis Question
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:45:37 -0400
In Cider Digest #1738, 11 October 2012:
>Subject: Juice Analysis Question
>From: Sam Dufner <sam@northwestcidersupply.com>
>
>I am interested in feedback about how my fellow cider crafters test various
>properties of their juice prior to fermentation. I will admit that this is
>a loaded question as I am currently building a kit of labware to sell on my
>website for cider makers.
Sam, this is a very interesting project!
Here are a few other tests that are on my wish list, and that you may
consider adding to your kit...
- -Fehling titration for sugar. This would give a better idea of the
sugar and potential alcohol than the hydrometer. Plus it would permit
to measure the residual sugar - if a cider is at SG 1.000, it may be
bone dry or it may also ferment further to 0.996, we have no way to
know from the hydrometer reading.
- -Formol titration for nitrogen. This permits to evaluate the YAN
(Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) and would be useful as to permit
evaluating the need to add nutrients, and how much, and also to
assess the potential of a juice to successfully keeve.
- -A simple test for the pectin measurement... There is the alcohol
test, but its results are not easily interpreted into useful
information for cider making. Also would be useful for keeving.
And a few other points...
For tanins, do you use the Lowenthal method? Tanin measurement in my
opinion is not as necessary, as we can easily taste it in the juice.
For acidity, I use titration and test strips. pH meters are easy to
procure, hence I don't see the point in including it in your kit.
Finally, I don't test for SO2 simply because I use very little, so I
am always far from the limit...
My feeling is that this is no easy task you are tackling... Good luck!
Claude Jolicoeur
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Subject: Re: Yeast and carbonation questions
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:10:50 -0400
In Cider Digest #1738, 11 October 2012:
>Subject: Yeast and carbonation questions
>From: John Daly <jdaly.pmexs@gmail.com>
>
>2) Before adding the priming honey and bottling I was going to let the
>cider sit for about 3 months. When I add the final half cup of honey, will
>the yeast "wake up" and be able to ferment it in the bottles? I considered
>adding additional fresh yeast, but am concerned about bottle bombs.
I am not too sure how honey compares with sugar in terms of
fermentable sugar per weight, but I wouldn't be overly concerned
about the presence of yeast after 3 months of maturation. It could
take a while, but eventually the fermentable sugar will ferment.
Adding yeast would accelerate the process, but I don't see why it
would make bombs if the sugar dosage is not excessive.
If you want to avoid bombs, don't put more than 15 grams of
fermentable sugar per liter. 5 US gal is 20 L, hence keep it under
300 grams of sugar. I doubt you have more than that in half a cup, so
you should be safe, with or without added yeast.
Claude Jolicoeur
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1738, 11 October 2012
From: Rick Hastings <rick@topoform.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 19:18:33 -0700
Sam:
Per your questions,
1) I test for sulphite levels using full labware via the Ripper method.
2) I test most often for free SO2, tracking totals by input; for me,
total tests are more typical at end of maturation, done mostly for record
keeping and/or general assurance.
3) I test for T/A and pH, the former with labware, the second using a
handheld pH meter (calibrated often with buffer solution).
I don't find testing much of a burden, now that I've got the drill down. In
fact, the toughest part for me was sourcing the proper chemicals, and
for sulphuric acid, trying to avoid costly (hazardous materials) shipping
rates is an issue.
Any sort of reliable, affordable tannin test might be useful. You may wish
to consider carrying refractometers, too.
Good luck,
Rick Hastings
Spokane WA
On Oct 11, 2012, at 8:26 AM, cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
> Subject: Juice Analysis Question
> From: Sam Dufner <sam@northwestcidersupply.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 21:04:01 -0700
>
> I am interested in feedback about how my fellow cider crafters test various
> properties of their juice prior to fermentation. I will admit that this is
> a loaded question as I am currently building a kit of labware to sell on my
> website for cider makers.
>
> First, I am interested in how many of you are testing sulphite levels at
> all, and are you using titration methods or just simple wine SO2 titretters
> that have the glass vials and give you a reading +/- 10ppm?
>
> Second, If you are using labware and doing true titrations for SO2, are you
> bothering with free SO2 or just testing total and "hoping" your free levels
> will be close enough?
>
> Third, When it comes to acidity are you measuring the total acidity or just
> the pH? With pH are you just using test strips or using a meter and if so
> handheld or bench?
>
> I guess I'm trying to get a handle on how far people are going with the
> testing. I'm a science teacher by trade and pretty analytical with most
> things I do cider included. My current kit that I use and will have for
> sale includes all of the labware for Total Acidity, Total and Free SO2,
> Tannin Content, and pH test strips. I'm not sure if I will put a pH meter
> in or not, but the thought crossed my mind that I'm going way too far with
> just the chemicals and equipment for all of the tests listed above.
>
> I guess another question along that line might also be; If you don't do
> all of the testing above, is it because you don't think it's necessary, or
> is the though of lab equipment and procedures overwhelming and.... lets say
> just more than you think you can handle?
>
> Thanks in advance for the feedback,
>
> Sam
> Northwest Cider Supply
------------------------------
Subject: heritage varieties suitable for cider
From: David & Melissa Dobernigg <5happyapples@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 14:41:34 -0700
Hello! We grafted an acre of bittersweets/bittersharps this past spring
and are considering grafting another 2 acres in the next year or two.
Before we go and graft it all to bittersweets, however, we wanted to
consider heritage varieties and pose the question here as to their value
for cider in all of your respective experiences. We of course can do a
tree or two here or there of each, but we'd appreciate feedback as to if
any are a definite yes! or no!
Varieties include:
stayman
alexander
bramlee
vanderpool
winesap
gravenstein
whitney crabapple
wolf river
wealthy
northern spy
spitzenburg
jubilee
gano
grimes gold
cortland
Thanks for any input. Obviously I could procure fruit from each of these
and run my own cider tests however we are new to all of this so asking
for some input from those with more experience does not seem a bad idea,
and much quicker if there is a general consensus on any of them.
Melissa
www.thebxpress.com
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End of Cider Digest #1739
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