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Cider Digest #1676
Subject: Cider Digest #1676, 7 December 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1676 7 December 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Making Ice Cider at Home ("Nathan J. Williams")
Re: Yeast preference (Tim Bray)
making ice cider (Jay Hersh)
Re: Making Ice Cider at Home (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Yeast preference (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Yeast preference (Dick Dunn)
RE: Yeast preference / Stephen Viarengo / Cider Digest #1675 ("Josh Klatt")
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Subject: Making Ice Cider at Home
From: "Nathan J. Williams" <nathanw@MIT.EDU>
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 12:31:35 -0500
George Gorospe asks about making ice cider at home. I'm in my second
year of doing this, the first year having produced quite a successful
result, so I'll share what I've done. I'm sure I will learn more in
the coming years; this is an early stumbling towards understanding.
My process has been, very roughly:
1. Put about 6 gallons of sweet cider into a bottling bucket,
2. Put the bucket in my chest freezer for 3-5 days until frozen solid,
3. Take the bucket out (to a 60-65F ambient temperature room), open
the spigot, and drain concentrated cider.
Step 3 is really the interesting part. The concentrate starts out very
sugary, and declines as more ice melts; I've had to re-freeze later
runoff to get it back up to an interesting strength. I made two
batches this year, one with a relatively straightforward melting
schedule, and one that ended up more elaborate.
For the first batch, I drained 4.5 gallons out of two buckets in about
24 hours, measuring 17 brix (all brix measurements from an ATC
refractometer), which seemed a bit low but I didn't feel like messing
with it. Pitched WLP775 (English cider yeast) and had it fermenting
away.
For the second batch, also two buckets, the first 2 gallons of runoff
(from about ten hours of draining) measured 37 brix. The next 3
gallons (produced overnight, about another 12 hours) were 11 brix -
back to source cider strength. Had I been paying closer attention and
timed it better, I likely would have cut that one off when the runoff
dropped that low, rather than letting the runoff get watery and
diluting it back. I re-ran the cryoextraction process on that last 3
gallons (plus another 1.5 gallons of juice) and got 1 gallon at 31
brix, 1 gallon at 10 brix, and 1 gallon at 4 brix. I mixed all but the
last to get 4 gallons at 25 brix, which seems like a nice starting
strength, based on last year's results. I pitched that one with WLP720
(sweet mead yeast), as my LHBS was out of cider yeast, but it'll make
an interesting variation.
Last year I let the cider ferment down to 1.030 - about ten weeks -
then added potassium sorbate and crashed it to 34F. I'm not really
sure how necessary that was, but fermentation was definitely stopped,
as it maintained the same gravity for the six months before I got
around to bottling it. Last year's product is sweet (clearly, from the
1.030), about 10% ABV, and almost completely clear. It has a strong
apple scent in the nose and has an almost syrupy apple taste, but
works well as a dessert-wine style of drink.
Variables that could use some more exploration:
* Freezing and thawing temperatures and the impact on draining rates.
Freeze as cold as possible (my chest freezer can manage -8F), or to
just below freezing? Thaw at room temperature, or try something just
above freezing?
* Different yeasts. I like the sweet finish in this product, but I'm
not sure if I'm getting it from the alcohol tolerance limits of the
yeast, a lack of nutrients in the must, or just a slow fermentation
that I forced to stop. This is why I went with a sweet rather than a
dry mead yeast when presented with that situation.
* Juice blends. Ice cider may be an application where the dominance
of dessert apples in the juice could work in our favor, for once.
Best of luck and be sure to share your results with us!
- Nathan
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Yeast preference
From: Tim Bray <tbray@wildblue.net>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 11:22:59 -0800
I too have experimented with various cultured yeast strains, and have
settled on two favorites, both from Lalvin: D-47 and 71B.
D47 is my #1 favorite for these reasons: it starts quickly, ferments
well even at low temperatures, and (most important) leaves a great deal
of apple character in the finished cider, including aroma. I have had
people swear there was residual sugar in some of the D47 ciders, because
the strong apple character fooled the palate. It generally does finish
quite dry, though I have occasionally succeeded in getting it to stop
just short, by repeated chilling and racking.
71B gets used when I have a juice that is higher in acidity than I
like. It's good for dessert apples for that reason - it metabolizes
some of the malic acid. But it's trickier to use, sometimes starting
very slowly - not sure if it's the low temps it doesn't like or, if I
over-sulfite sometimes, but it has failed me on occasion. When it does
work, though, it leaves a smooth mouthfeel and complexity in the
finished cider. Like D47, I have sometimes been able to stop it by
repeated chilling/racking, but it usually finishes dry. It does not
leave as much apple character and fruitiness as D47, more of a vinous
character.
I haven't had much success with wild yeast fermentations; even when they
go well, I get too much Brett character. I can usually get a little of
that in the ciders fermented with wine yeasts - a nice result! Though
it does mean that I have to be verrry careful about bottling any ciders
that finish above 1.000, because the Brett will continue to slowly work
on any remaining sugar. Since I keg all my ciders now, and age them for
months before tapping, I can bottle a finished bright cider directly
from the keg without risk.
Yeasts that I have tried and did not like: Epernay, Cote des Blancs,
Montrachet, 1118, WLP 775 ("English Cider"), Nottingham, various Lager
yeasts, and probably several others I've forgotten. All of these were
strongly recommended by various sources, and none of them really proved
out in my experience. I might give WLP 775 another chance one of these
days, as I only used it once; it made a decent cider but did not
preserve any apple character as it was supposed to do. Interestingly
though, it did leave the cider supersaturated with CO2 - racking it was
an adventure - something I haven't encountered in any other batch.
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: making ice cider
From: Jay Hersh <jsh@doctorbeer.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:07:39 -0500
>Subject: Making Ice Cider at Home
>From: George Gorospe <gggorosp@gmail.com>
>Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 23:42:03 +0100
>
>I'm just getting into crafting cider. I really enjoy ice ciders. Has
>anyone made any ice ciders at home and can give some tips, techniques,
>etc? Thank you
Based on conversations I had during an extensive tour of Quebec
cideries in the vicinity of Montreal several years ago, Ice Cider, at
least as made in that region is basically made one of two ways.
Either freezing the juice to remove some of the water from it before
fermenting or letting the apples themselves freeze and then pulping
and pressing them. I'm not sure of the details on the latter. I'd
think that the pulping and pressing of the apples would just mix any
frozen water back in so I don't know if the water turned to ice
within the apples themselves sublimates thereby concentrating the
sugars or if something else goes on.
As you can imagine, these approaches can be difficult for a home
cider maker to recreate. Since the point of them is to concentrate
the juice that will get fermented, thus raising the starting gravity
and eventually leaving a stronger but still sweeter finished product,
it's possible to use alternative approaches. I've had success with
two different apploaches to doing this
1) purchasing more cider than I want to have for my final volume and
then boiling down a portion of that to drive off the water and raise
the gravity. So for example I've taken 6 gallons of fresh unpreserved
soft cider and boiled 2 of them down to only 1 gallon then when it
cooled mixed it back in with the other 4. The result is 5 gallons of
higher gravity must which, when fermented with an appropriate yeast
(I'd have to look up what I used but perhaps others in this forum can
make suggestions from memory), will leave you with a stronger and
sweeter final product
2) a variation on the above is to purchase apple cider syrup and use
that to boost the gravity. it's not always easy to find and can be
pricey when you do but this too can yield good results
have fun,
Jay H aka Dr. Beer (TM)
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Making Ice Cider at Home
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 17:31:22 -0500
>In Cider Digest #1675, 5 December 2011
>Subject: Making Ice Cider at Home
>From: George Gorospe <gggorosp@gmail.com>
>
>I'm just getting into crafting cider. I really enjoy ice ciders. Has
>anyone made any ice ciders at home and can give some tips, techniques,
>etc? Thank you
My first trial, quite a few years ago, fermented to dryness, was VERY
strong in alcohol, VERY sharp, and not very good...
Made a second trial last winter, started SG 1.120, racked first time
at SG 1.073, second racking at 1.067 and the 3rd racking at 1.057 has
finally stabilised it. I am currently waiting for it to clear.
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Yeast preference
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 17:38:47 -0500
>In Cider Digest #1675, 5 December 2011
>Subject: Yeast preference
>From: "Stephen Viarengo" <viarengo@verizon.net>
>
>I was wondering what folks are using for cultured yeast. ... For the
>most part, I have settled on Lalvin
>D-47 as the all around best yeast for cider. (Although I must say that
>recently I have been experimenting more with natural yeast fermentation with
>some excellent results.)
I haven't tried D-47 yet, but I have had good results with EC-1118,
and with 71-B (both from Lalvain). I have noted that 71-B seems to be
a slower fermenter, and reduces the acidity. So I now tend to use
71-B on more acidic juices and EC-1118 when TA is lower.
Natural yeast has given very nice results also.
I have also used Redstar Prise de mousse in the past but I can't find
it anymore. I liked it.
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Yeast preference
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 08:50:26 -0700
Stephen Viarengo asked what people are using for cultured yeast in ciders.
There's no clear winner, so it's all down to anecdotal experience from
each of us.
He's using D-47, which I agree is a good choice; I hear of a fair number
of cidermakers using it. I used it back in the past, up to four years ago.
The past couple autumns I've mostly used 71B-1122 because of its ability
to reduce acidity...my juice blends almost always come up sharper than
I'd like, so this is a help.
Prior to using 71B, but after D-47, I used DV-10 in about a dozen batches.
It did a good job and seemed to be a slight improvement over D-47.
I had a couple unhappy results with W-15: heavy H2S production. This
didn't happen in all batches, and I've been unable to decide what factor
caused the H2S. Could have been temperature, nutrient level...I don't
know. It was bad enough to require CuSO4 treatment, which made me very
nervous. Since I had other choices of yeast, I didn't pursue the problem
with W-15.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Yeast preference / Stephen Viarengo / Cider Digest #1675
From: "Josh Klatt" <josh@joshklatt.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:07:16 -0700
RE: Yeast preference / Stephen Viarengo / Cider Digest #1675
Hey Stephen and fellow digesters:
I'm fermenting 100 Gallons this year of Stayman Winesap juice using 4
different yeasts. All rehydrated with GoFerm (@1.25g / G) and fed with
Fermaid K (2 feedings at 1g / G)- Cider at 68 degrees F. Starting
Gravity 1.065 / ph 3.75
1. RHST - This one went gangbusters out of the gate ! Completed
fermentation in 4 days. I was a little late getting the Fermaid K into
it cuz it caught me off guard with such a fast and vigorous ferment.
Kind of high with the H2S production but maybe it was stressed waiting
for the late feedings ? The sulphury smell seems to have dissipated
after racking.
2. DV10 - the slowest and most gradual ferment 3-4 weeks to completion.
Took a few days to get started. Great smell and taste through the whole
ferment. No H2S.
3. D254 - 1 - 2 weeks to ferment. Lovely smell and taste (peach and
green apple) through ferment, but seemed to lose it by the time I racked
at the 3.5 week mark- oxidation ? Bit of H2S.
4. 58W3 - 1 - 2 weeks to ferment. Apple and stone fruit on the nose
similar to the D254 early on, but less of the oxidation I think.
I also left a couple carboys to their own devices: no SO2 additions, no
yeast innoculation, no nutrition. To my pleasant surprise, it is the
best of the batch so far !!! Completed ferment in less than 2 weeks
with heavy H2S and some other weird unpleasant stuff-- but after racking
it is amazingly fruity and floral! Who'da thunk it...
I gave yeasts lots of O2 -maybe too much for the cider's good in
retrospect- using the handy drill attachment. I had some stuck ferments
in the past and I was trying to prevent that. What is everyone else's
guidelines on aeration during fermentation? It seems like a delicate
line to straddle - You want enough O2 for the yeast to thrive but you
don't want to oxidize the cider, right ?
PS- I'm always into sharing/trading my cider to get some good honest
feedback ! Please message me if you are interested !
Josh Klatt
josh@joshklatt.com
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End of Cider Digest #1676
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