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Cider Digest #1651
Subject: Cider Digest #1651, 17 August 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1651 17 August 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
RE: growing cider varieties (Tim Bray)
Re: Cider Digest #1650, 14 August 2011 ("Hirst David R.")
Ref: Cider Digest 20th Anniversary ("Jez Howat")
Thanks (Tom Oliver)
Maceration (Andrew Lea)
Fireblight (jejanicke)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: growing cider varieties
From: Tim Bray <tbray@wildblue.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:39:34 -0700
Scott - I've grown Binet Rouge, Major, Muscadet de Dieppe, Noel des
Champs, and Stoke Red, here on the Mendocino coast (USDA zone 9b, Sunset
zone 17 or 14 depending on the year).
Binet Rouge, Noel des Champs, and Stoke Red all suffer from lack of
chill in most winters. They break dormancy late and grew slowly. I
took out the Stoke Reds and the Noel des Champs. (Dick - how are they
doing?).
Major grows well, though slowly, making a nicely shaped open-center
tree. Moderately productive. Fruit is very tannic - a little goes a
long way.
Muscadet de Dieppe is a funny one for me. It ripens early, around the
same time as Nehou and Kingston Black; doesn't keep, so you need to
either have enough for a single-varietal batch, or have other early
fruit to blend with. Fruity and softly tannic, it would no doubt make a
good cider if I had enough of it. But my trees have been dying, one by
one, of an apparent fungal infection (Armillaria?) that turns the bark
black and withers the foliage. I have one healthy and productive tree
left of the five I started with. These are the only trees I have on M26,
so that may have something to do with it; but some of the dead ones are
now sending up healthy root suckers, so maybe it's the graft union that
is the problem. In any case it hasn't done well for me.
You probably get more chill than I do, so maybe some of these would
perform better for you. Part of our problem in this climate is the warm
spells in mid-winter, which can "reset" the chill clock, according to
some things I've read. One other thing about the cool, grey, and damp
climate (Sunset zone 17), is it seems to favor tannin development in the
bittersweets. Warmer and drier weather (Sunset zone 14) favors sugar
development.
Cheers,
Tim
- --
Oak & Thorn <http://oakandthorn.wordpress.com>
Facebook: Oak and Thorn
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1650, 14 August 2011
From: "Hirst David R." <drhirst@mac.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:04:48 -0700
Hi Dick!
It is time I say THANK YOU! for All your efforts! You are a lot more then
Janitor! You also educate, enlighten, enliven, cajole, etcetera, etcetera!! I
don't have the place or means to Produce cider but I sure do enjoy Drinking
it! I have been a lurker on this list for more then 8 years and Thanks to
You I can do that in a slightly more educated manner! Keep up the Good Work!
Best Wishes!
David R. Hirst
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 14, 2011, at 9:42 AM, cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
> This issue marks the 20th anniversary of the Cider Digest--the first issue
> as a digest came out on 14 August 1991. (It followed from a mailing list
> which had existed for a short while before that.)
>
> Time for reflection, of course.
------------------------------
Subject: Ref: Cider Digest 20th Anniversary
From: "Jez Howat" <jez.howat@btinternet.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:29:09 +0100
Dick (and the Digest),
I read about the 20th anniversary with huge interest - I had no idea that it
was the forerunner to things like the Cider Workshop and its less salubrious
predecessor! I wish you all the best for the next 20 years of Digest and
hope that the Workshop and Digest can continue to offer cider makers
worldwide the support and encouragement that they need.
Oh and by the way - I guess you have disproven your own theory about these
things having 'phases':-)
All the very best
Jez Howat
146 Cider Company
Southampton, UK
------------------------------
Subject: Thanks
From: Tom Oliver <t-oliver@sky.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:35:35 +0100
Dear Dick,
It is with much thanks and appreciation to you for keeping the good ship
"Cider Digest' afloat and ably navigating the rocks.
Your championing of cider on both sides of the Atlantic is much appreciated
and it has been great to see you when visiting the UK and also in Denver.
The digest is a great source of information, exchange and ideas.
Thanks from Tom.
Tom Oliver
Oliver's Cider and Perry Limited.
------------------------------
Subject: Maceration
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:45:43 +0100
Howard wrote:
>
> I have read about maceration (leaving the pomace for 24 hours prior to
> pressing) with regards to keeving. However, I saw a brief note about how it
> adds color and body to juice that is fermented normally. Does anyone have
> any experience with leaving the pomace for 24 hours prior to pressing? Does
> it make a difference, better or worse? I might try a batch this year and
> also let it ferment with ambient yeast, but thought I'd check.
It is an interesting and complex topic and there is no simple answer to
the question 'better or worse'. The changes that take place fall into
three main areas - pectin, 'tannin' and other flavour compounds.
The first two were covered in some detail in Warcollier's book "La
Cidrerie" in 1928, translated by Charley in 1949. I have copied the
relevant pages for interest, which you will find here as a 1.8MB
download www.cider.org.uk/maceration.pdf pp 1-4. Although it is old it
is still fairly accurate. There is no doubt that an increase in soluble
pectin takes place during maceration and this is principally of value to
people wanting to keeve since a thick pectin gel is required for
success. In addition, some of the necessary demethylation of the pectin
by native pectin methyl esterase also takes place at this time -
important in the days before the required enzymes were commercially
available.
Since Warcollier's day there has been much more understanding of the
relationship between oxidation, PPO enzyme, tannin and colour. This was
studied in the recent past by myself and various groups in Poland,
France and Canada. See the same link for a brief summary discussion
www.cider.org.uk/maceration.pdf pp 5-6. In essence, you can increase
colour with a period of aerobic pulp incubation / oxidation, but if it's
too long or too aerobic both the coloured and the uncoloured 'tannins'
(polyphenolics) are absorbed back on to the pulp and the juice becomes
lighter in colour and loses its tannic 'bite'. Warcollier's remarks
refer primarily to high tannin French cider apples - with dessert apples
the generated colour is much less and tends to be adsorbed back on the
pulp much quicker. Likewise the tannic 'bite' - if you have precious
little of this anyway you may not want to lose any more. A lot depends
on how thick the pulp layer is and how easily the air can get to all
parts of it. Not to mention the effects of temperature and pH.
Finally, the effect on other flavour components. Some part of apple
juice aroma (especially esters) are present in the skin of the original
fruit and one might imagine that the longer the pulp remains incubating,
the greater the transfer of esters from skin fragments into the juice.
Another part of the juice aroma derives, as the apple is being milled,
from oxidation of fatty acids to produce the 'green' C6 aldehydes and
again these might increase on (aerobic) pulp storage. However these
aldehydes are unstable so they may be further oxidised to eg hexanoic
acid which may mean that during eventual fermentation greater levels of
eg flavourful ethyl hexanoate are formed. Finally, it is now known that
important flavour precursors such as 2-phenyl ethanol and octane-diol
are bound to beta-glucosides in apple and these will probably be
liberated more during maceration. There is a paper here
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814699001363 which
shows the increase in some alcohols after fermentation of a
pre-macerated juice and I think that is where they are coming from. Any
increase in octane-diol could be very interesting since it is now known
to form a very 'cidery' dioxalane by reaction with acetaldehyde during
fermentation. And so on .... (sorry the chemistry gets quite intense!).
So there are many potential changes that take place during maceration.
Some could be interesting, even if you're not keeving. In practice
though it is a nuisance to hold large quantities of pulp overnight free
from fruit flies, birds and rodents let alone the space required and
interruption to the flow of the operation, unless there is a clear gain
to be had. On a small scale this may be easier to do and if you do a
'macerated and control' this coming season it will be interesting to
know what you find and whether you feel it's worth the effort!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Fireblight
From: jejanicke <jejanicke@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:35:29 -0600
Here in the west one of the toughest problems with growing apple trees
is fireblight. I read everything I can find about it learning that the
best technique is to spray the blossoms alternately with copper and then
a few days later with streptomycin. Bordeaux mixture will suffice for
the copper but locating a source of streptomycin has been a problem for
me until recently. Good old eBay came through with sources. Now that I
have a supply of streptomycin I will be ready for next spring.
Joe Janicke
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End of Cider Digest #1651
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