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Cider Digest #1677
Subject: Cider Digest #1677, 11 December 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1677 11 December 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: yeast preference (Charles McGonegal)
Re: Yeast preference (Tim Bray)
Oxidation? Ice cider (Rob McDowell)
Re: Yeast Preference / H2S /Cider flavor (Robert Kuntz)
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Subject: Re: yeast preference
From: Charles McGonegal <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 18:32:29 -0600
I did a bunch of 1L fermentations a couple of years ago. The main thing
I've discovered is that yeast has a bigger impact at >50 gallons than at 1L.
D47 was okay in those trials. I used d254 for a couple of years after
those trials. The white labs cider yeast fell into the same cluster.
Lately I've been using uvaferm dgi228 (Steinberger). Even more aromatic
than D254, and about the 3rd slowest fermenter I've found. The slowest
(amh) was very neutral/boring on the aroma front.
I've tried some of the blended non-Sacchromyces cultures, but didn't find
anything notable.
Sent from my iPhone
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
Artisan Cider & Spirits
(262)496-7508=
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Subject: Re: Yeast preference
From: Tim Bray <tbray@wildblue.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 19:49:50 -0800
Josh Klatt mentioned using Fermaid, which I have never done, and which
seems counter-productive for cider. I seem to get better ciders from
slower fermentations, and often I chill and rack to remove sediment and
yeast before the ferment is done, to slow it down even more. Faster
ferments seem to leave my ciders with less apple aroma and flavor, and
they are harsh and require more aging.
He asks about aeration, which I never do - again, it seems
counterproductive. For one thing, it will encourage mold, which I have
enough trouble with as it is; and for another, it will remove tannins,
which most US cidermakers have too little of to begin with. It also is
at odds with sulfiting, if I understand the chemistry correctly.
I'm not at all surprised the wild yeast ferment, with no Fermaid or
sulfite, came out better than the rapid and vigorous wine-yeast
fermentations. I'm just jealous, as my wild yeasts are not so good!
Cheers,
Tim
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Subject: Oxidation? Ice cider
From: Rob McDowell <redwine@charter.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 09:05:58 -0500
Hello,
A first post by a northern NY wine (mostly) and cider (some) maker.
Is excessive oxidation a concern with the freeze concentration method of
making ice cider? Is the juice dosed with ph appropriate KMB before
freezing? Or is some degree of oxidation acceptable w/cider vs. grape
wine?
Thanks,
Rob
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Subject: Re: Yeast Preference / H2S /Cider flavor
From: Robert Kuntz <bodyelectric2@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 05:05:17 -0700
Re: Yeast Preference / H2S / Cider flavor
I thought this recent thread on yeast selection was a great question, and
had some feedback on it. It also linked pretty well to some questions on
H2S and cider flavor earlier in the year. My profession is yeast and
cellar management at a brewery, so I have some insights to share from that
side as well as a home cider maker.
I've personally tried wine, cider, champagne, lager, and ale yeasts for
making cider, and done a wild fermentation, and found some pros and cons
with each. I like Lavalin 71-B for high acid must I have available, but
when I have smaller batches I can refrigerate I like German Ale yeast for
low acid must and Lavalin 1118 as an all-arounder. Yeast selection is
personal, and usually should answer these questions.
- Do I have access to temperature control?
- Do I have time?
- Do I need a vigorous strain that outcompetes other microbes, or will
I take a risk with a slower, and typically more flavorful fermentation?
- Am I targeting flavor, or alcohol production?
- Am I targeting a ester (fruit), higher alcohol (medicinal/solvent
notes), or sulfur profile?
- Do I need acid reduction?
- Do I need to bottle condition?
There are some misconceptions about yeast affecting "apple flavor", or
fruity flavor. It's important to recognize that most of the fruit notes
(esters) produced by yeast and native to the must are volatile, blow out
the air lock at high temps (>65F) and during fast fermentations (high CO2)
evolution. With the must, you get the fruit flavors that you get. With
the yeast, you can drive the reaction one way or the other. Some strains
will make more than others. Typically, low O2, high pressure (high
height/width fermenter ratio), and high gravity (>1.058 SG, or 14.5P) will
increase ester production. The opposite will tend towards higher alcohol
(propanol, butanol, etc) production.
Sulfur is a whole different animal. There are three critical enzyme
pathways (one mitochondrial) linked to Methionine and Cysteine metabolism
in yeast that drive H2S production, as well as other sulfur flavors.
Methionine is the start codon amino acid, and is the first AA in almost
all proteins created in eukaryotes - hence why it's such a problem. H2S is
most critical due to low flavor threshold, and the fact it is the main
substrate in making the others sulfur notes. (H2S2, H2S3, (CH3)2S, etc).
The wine industry has done the most research on controlling H2S.
- Yeast need Vitamin B5 and 6 to make Methionine (Met) when it is in
low supply in must or wort. Lager and champagne yeasts are especially
susceptible to this problem, along with some German ale yeasts and the
UCDavis Montrachet wine strain. I personally use a bit of crushed
multivitamin to help revitalize older or "eggy" yeast cultures I pull from
my fridge to prop up before pitch. However, I prop it a bit and check the
smell before using it.
- Provide your yeast some Met in the form of Fermaid or Fermax - it's
literally dead, lysed yeast but supplies the minerals (esp Zinc for DNA
synthesis), vitamins, sterols, and amino acids you need.
- If you use ammonium ion, don't add too much ammonium to your
fermentation, and don't add it too early or too late. Too early, and the
yeast gorge themselves and store it, and release it too slowly. They turn
on their enzymes much later in the fermentation to change the ammonium to
amino acids, and can trigger H2S production. Too late, and well, it's too
late for them to use it, and you feed other flora you don't want. Go ahead
and add it a day or two into the fermentation when they need it.
Lastly, someone had questions on oxygenating. Yeast are categorized in
four groups based on oxygen usage - there is virtually no harm in adding O2
to yeast at pitch in high quantity to any of these categories. Almost all
of it is used in the first 5-6 hours of fermentation, with the rate of
usage increasing linearly every hour in most yeasts. O2 is necessary for
yeasts to convert lipids into fatty acids for cell membranes and growth. O2
will not only feed your yeast, but inhibit microaerophiles like lactic acid
bacteria. Low O2/air addition after fermentation for anything other than
inducing bottle conditioning is when you get into trouble, both with flavor
and with wild molds, yeasts, and Acetobacter.
On fermentation technique...I have had success with the cider equivalent
of "krausening", depending on the yeast. I've done this with a lager
yeast. I'm trying Lav 71b later next month with this to see how it works.
Basically, if you have too much funk in your fermentation, and it's not a
microbial problem, add fresh juice or must, and fresh yeast, and they will
mop up quite a bit of the bad flavors. It might not be perfect cider, but
it helps. I took two year old, acetic-solvent tasting junk and turned it
into some of the best cider I have ever made just with fresh juice and
yeast. My whole family was rather surprised when we tasted it. 2-4:1
new:old must works okay for me. I've even turned cider into amazing
cyser this way, using honey and new yeast. Interestingly, it went from
okay cider to great cyser in four months. I guess if these yeasts can pull
it off in Munich and Prague, they can do it in my garage.
Cheers,
Robert
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End of Cider Digest #1677
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