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Cider Digest #1662
Subject: Cider Digest #1662, 12 October 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1662 12 October 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Cider Question (Andrew Lea)
Re: cider question (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: keep.it.simple.stupid. cider making? (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: could we just name these varieties?!? (Claude Jolicoeur)
RE: Cider Digest #1661, 9 October 2011 ("Julian Temperley")
Re: keep.it.simple.stupid. cider making? (Martin Harris)
re: cider question (scott heath)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Cider Question
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 20:36:19 +0100
Dave wrote:
> In 2008 and 2010 I produced cider which had a white, semi-solid in the
> bottom of the carboys by the time fermentation ended. In 2008, the solid was
> about 3 inches thick and in 2010, it occupied almost half of the 5 gallon
> vessel.
Two likely candidates are starch from under-ripe fruit, or pectin.
Starch normally forms quite compact bottoms and I cannot imagine it
filling half the vessel. Anyway, the yeast deposit then typically
overlays it. This sound more as if it lies above the yeast? If so,
pectin precipitated by alcohol could be the cause.
You can add a pectinase to the juice before you ferment if you want to
stop if forming. If you add pure alcohol to the sludge (about 3 parts
alcohol to 1 part sludge), it may clump or gel further if pectin is the
cause.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: cider question
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:44:23 -0400
In Cider Digest #1661, 9 October 2011
>Subject: cider question
>From: "Terry and Dave" <maczuga@clearwire.net>
>In 2008 and 2010 I produced cider which had a white, semi-solid in the
>bottom of the carboys by the time fermentation ended. In 2008, the solid was
>about 3 inches thick and in 2010, it occupied almost half of the 5 gallon
>vessel. ... I wondered if this could be a
>super extreme case of pectin haze, since those years were cool summers here
>and the apples may have had unusually high pectin levels but solids are not
>described with regard to pectin problems. I would appreciate any help in
>diagnosing and addressing this problem.
Dave,
Have a look at these pictures, there are some of very typical pectil gel,
which in effect may be seen as an extreme form of pectic haze.
http://picasaweb.google.com/cjoliprsf/Cider
Once it forms, it is not possible to get rid of it, but with time, it
settles more and more and occupies less space. And in effect, it does not
effect the quality of the cidre - if one thing, the cider is the clearest
that it can get.
One way to avoid this is to make an enzyme treatment before fermentation
(i.e. pectinase).
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Re: keep.it.simple.stupid. cider making?
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 00:48:28 -0400
In Cider Digest #1661, 9 October 2011
>Subject: keep.it.simple.stupid. cider making?
>From: Aaron Skelton <zookie400@gmail.com>
>Does anybody (or has anybody tried to) make cider without the science lab
>approach? My late great-grandfather made hard cider, and from what i
>remember it was delicious. I do not recall him using anything other than
>cider, yeast, and raisins. No magic tabs or additives of any sort. So i
>guess my question is: Should I go "old school" with modern yeasts and keep
>the additives out of the equation, or am I guaranteed to get a rotten batch
>of wasted time and juice?
I am all for the KISS approach.
Actually, if you download this PowerPoint presentation
http://cjoliprsf.awardspace.biz/Documents/CiderMakingBasics-Slides.pdf
and the accompanying text
http://cjoliprsf.awardspace.biz/Documents/CiderMakingBasics-Text.pdf
which is on a talk I have done on cidermaking basics, you will see that I
mention the KISS principle there...
You can keep additives out if your juice has enough acidity to protect
itself, and this is often the case with North American apple varieties as
grown in the North. By the way, raisins also are additives, and should be
kept out if you follow KISS...
So, most of ciders I have done for over 20 years have been done with just
juice and yeast (and a good number even without the yeast), and I never got
a rotten batch. But I do measure acidity, and evaluate my blends before
starting the fermentation.
Possibly your great-grandfather had a great sense of what he was doing
without having to take measurements, and if he did his blends the right
way, he didn't need to add any additives. But you, as a child, were not
aware of the experience he had that permitted hid to do so that way. It
just looked so simple and easy!
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Re: could we just name these varieties?!?
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 00:50:57 -0400
In Cider Digest #1661, 9 October 2011
>Subject: Re: could we just name these varieties?!?
>From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
>What I have (3 trees of it) is most notably different from true Tremlett in
>that it's a bittersharp, not a bittersweet. The shape of the fruit is
>round, not at all conical. Trees have a very upright habit.
Dick, the Tremlett I have is definitely a bittersweet, very red and rather
conical... So this situation is quite different from the Fauxwhelp one as
in this case the true Tremlett is available on the continent! Why don't you
topgraft your trees with some true Tremlett?
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1661, 9 October 2011
From: "Julian Temperley" <somcb@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:12:30 +0100
Hi, We have three very slightly different variations of Fox Whelp , a
bitter sharp apple which grows very well and has heavy crops . We think
that it is some sort of relation to Stoke Red. One of its attributes is
claimed to be the cider has a nose similar to the smell of a fox's den.
So best blended in small quantities.
On another front , after four years of campaigning the EU in Brussels has
at last resolved the problem of what we can call our spirit distilled and
matured from our cider. Since September 13 we have legal protection for
the name 'Somerset Cider Brandy' and a PGI ( appellation controle). In this
nutty world Calvados has to describe itself as 'cider spirit' as have all
other distilled apple products. For the time being 'Cider Brandy' is
restricted to Somerset and Somerset apples. Julian Temperley. Somerset. UK
------------------------------
Subject: Re: keep.it.simple.stupid. cider making?
From: Martin Harris <martin@butfordorganics.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:49:30 +0100
Aaron - Worry not - the "old school New England roots" are alive,well
and flourishing where they originated - in Old England. Many small scale
cider makers in Herefordshire and nearby counties keep intervention to
an absolute minimum - I probably more than most - and, although the
resulting product may vary year by year, each producer has their own
style and the quality of the cider and perry so produced is testament to
the success of the approach. Care is needed though and I suggest the
following simple guidelines:
Use only sound, suitably ripe clean washed fruit.
Ensure the fermenting containers and all other equipment are clean and
free from contamination.
Ferment in a relatively cool stable environment.
Keep air away from the fermenting juice especially once the initial more
vigorous fermentation is over.
Once fermented it is essential to keep the juice air free.
Process as required for bottling and consuming.
Enjoy what nature can produce.
The only additive we now put in our ciders is a modest amount of sugar
to produce a medium cider from the fully fermented dry juice. We only
use the wild yeasts present in the fruit and around and can produce a
range of ciders and perries from still draught to sparkling bottle
conditioned. It is true we did have one or two problems initially with
this approach (mainly with perry but this has had the benefit of a
lifetimes supply of perry vinegar) but a rigorous review of hygiene
solved most issues. I would not wish to stifle innovation and promote
this style as the only way to make cider. Indeed some very interesting
products are now being made both here and in the USA but we think that a
combination of the skill of our forebears and selective use of modern
scientific knowledge about the fermentation process is the best
approach.
I am sure the scientists amongst the digest contributors will raise
valid issues of caution but I can assure you that you will not be
wasting your time with the natural approach.
Martin Harris
------------------------------
Subject: re: cider question
From: scott heath <scott@fireballfarm.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 05:17:03 -0700
Terry and Dave,
A couple years ago I asked a similar question of the digest, with a
photo or two (which I can't find right now), and got the conclusion that
it was a pectin gel. In that 5 gallon batch I had put a dash of salt
and a dash of calcium carbonate to see if I could get a keeve, which
didn't happen so I pitched a yeast, probably Cuvee. It fermented
seemingly normally, I added some wild cherries while it was fermenting,
racked it off of those, then after awhile it had a FLOATING white
semi-solid, with crystal clear cherry-tinted cider below it. I racked
this out from under the gel and was surprised to find it retained a bit
of sweetness. And a lot of cherry, mmmm.
Scott
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End of Cider Digest #1662
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