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Cider Digest #1726
Subject: Cider Digest #1726, 13 August 2012
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1726 13 August 2012
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Pectic enzymes (Andrew Lea)
Re: motor kits for grinders (scott heath)
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1723, 31 July 2012 From: "Stuart J Madany" (Bry...)
Cidre fort (Scott Smith)
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Subject: Pectic enzymes
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 20:18:23 +0100
On 07/08/2012 19:30, Stuart Madany wrote:
> One of the lessons of my first year's production was not to use pectic
> enzyme before fermentation. Much of the nutrients needed for healthy yeast
> metabolism are lost with the pectin.
I have to disagree I'm afraid. According to all mainstream science,
pectin is primarily composed of polygalacturonic acid chains. When you
use a pectic enzyme cocktail before fermentation, all that happens is
that the chains are broken down into smaller galacturonic acid units. If
you ferment that mixture, all nutrients are still available. Where would
they go otherwise?
The only way in which nutrients would be removed is if you deliberately
form and remove a calcium pectate gel, as in keeving. Then nutrients are
adsorbed onto the gel (primarily aspartic acid, asparagine and thiamine)
and removed with it. That is for making a slowly fermenting naturally
sweet cider in the French style. But that is not done in normal
cidermaking, where use of pectic enzymes in solution is commonplace.
Pectic enzymes are much less efficient in the presence of alcohol, hence
they are much better used at the juice stage and allowed to act in the
early hours and days of cidermaking, rather than on already-fermented cider.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
www.cider.org.uk
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Subject: Re: motor kits for grinders
From: scott heath <scott@fireballfarm.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 08:33:09 -0700
Claude, and all,
I motorized my Happy Valley Ranch grinder several years ago. I put the
parts together myself from Grainger with the help of a friend who had
done it. It looks pretty much like the new kit. I think it cost me
somewhere between $200 and $300, I don't recall exactly.
I had already modified the drum by adding screws with a closer clearance
to the grinder body, attempting to get a finer grind. There was a minor
improvement in chunk size but I thought maybe that speed would improve it
still more, so I tried the motor. It certainly grinds faster! I'd say
that I was able to pour, not dump, a crate of apples into the hopper.
Yet still there were too many large pieces for my preference.
I ended up buying the Oesco grinder and am very happy with it. My only
criticism with it so far (other than the fact that it doesn't come with a
forklift, bin dumper, belt washer, and elevator) is that there are a FEW
parts, screws mainly, showing a little rust, so it's not ENTIRELY made
of SS. You can almost dump apples in as fast as you can, though I push
them in from a sorting table.
Scott Heath
Tilted Shed Ciderworks
Forestville, CA=
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Subject: Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1723, 31 July 2012 From: "Stuart J Madany"
From: Bryan Holmes <bryanjohnh@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 18:56:42 -0400
Hi Harrison and Stuart,
I would consider using pectin enzymes pre-fermentation. Many fruit and wine
producers that use enzymes will use them pre-fermentation to clarify and
increase juice yield. Personally, I don't see how using pectin enzyme would
effect total nitrogen or vitamin levels. These can be adjusted anyway
pre-fermentation after a pectinase treatment or during primary. I think
your best bet is to do a bench top trial using pectinase 1)
pre-fermentation and 2) post-fermentation and see if there's a difference.
Good luck...
Bryan Holmes
Subject: a question for the digest
From: Hunter Wade <hntrhrrsn@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:51:37 -0700
Hi,
My name's Harrison - I'm making a large batch of cider this year and am
looking for some advice on how to deal with the pectin issue.
We are thinking of adding a pectin enzyme at the juice stage and then
adding bentonite and or gelatin along with a few weeks settling time post
fermentation to remove the majority of pectins prior to filtration. We are
not pasteurizing - we are sterile filtering.
Does anyone recommend another way to deal with the pectins or has anyone
done the same and has tips/suggestions???
Any specific pectin enzyme to recommend?
Thanks!
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1723, 31 July 2012
From: "Stuart J Madany" <stuart@castlehillcider.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:14:17 -0400
Hi Harrison,
One of the lessons of my first year's production was not to use pectic
enzyme before fermentation. Much of the nutrients needed for healthy yeast
metabolism are lost with the pectin. After fermentation you might try
pectic enzyme in a sample at 50-60 degrees for three days and see what drops
out (or you could try different rates in multiple samples). Following my
consultant's suggestion, I did this and then tested the difference it made
in how much cider would go through a syringe-sized sterile filter.
Stuart Madany
------------------------------
Subject: Cidre fort
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:41:47 -0400
I was in Québec last week and happened by a store specializing in
local wines so grabbed a few ciders. I am now back home in Maryland
tasting through them and my general impression is WOW, these Québecois
ciders are good!
Several are so-called cidre fort which are in the 10-11% alcohol range.
Unlike the tasteless apple wines I have had in the past, these cidre
fort are quite good, with complex flavor profiles. I was expecting they
were made with some unusual apples given all the flavors, but in looking
at their websites it looks like they are completely standard varieties.
Given the intensity of flavors in these Québecois cidre fort I am
assuming they were not chapitalized, but can anyone confirm this? Any
other information about the techniques used in these cidre fort would be
of interest to me, e.g. the SG at start, how fermentation was stopped,
filtering, etc. So far I have had two, one was fairly dry and the other
is more in the Reisling category.
I am thinking I will try making a cidre fort this fall. I have
cryo-concentrated apples in the past, to get a cider in the upper 7%,
but never this level. I used a technique of freeze/thaw then siphon off
the top mostly-water portion, repeating until reaching the desired
level. I'd be interested in other techniques people have had success
with for small-scale cidre fort production.
One other surprise I had was a cidre bouché called "des bulles, genre"
produced by Clos Saragnat. This cider was 7% alcohol and was very
similar in taste to a Dupont or other outstanding Norman cider. There
seems to be a recent trend in Québec to make ciders by the more
traditional methods: unfiltered, no added yeast, etc. I am not sure
exactly what methods they are using or what apples; it would be
surprising to me if they could get a taste so similar to a Norman cider
without any of the European cider apple varieties. In general I would
be interested in any details on how these Québecois cidre bouché
méthode traditionnelle are made. Looking around there is nothing on
the Clos Saragnat website about this cider and it is only showing up
recently on their Facebook page so I expect it is recently released. I
have a few more of these traditional ciders that I have not opened yet,
and am looking forward to what I will find.
Scott
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End of Cider Digest #1726
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