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Cider Digest #1611
Subject: Cider Digest #1611, 26 January 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1611 26 January 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1610, 20 January 2011 (Carl LeClair)
What is so special about grapes? (lotic@juno.com)
Cidermakers Conference (Nick Gunn)
Mold in wild ferment (Andrew Lea)
Perry Pear Trees (chris horn)
Does cider clear more rapidly in a plastic 2.5 gallon pig than in a (denni...)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1610, 20 January 2011
From: Carl LeClair <werksind@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 06:03:16 -0500
Dick,
I think your idea of organizing a formal group of artisan producers
and those that wish to try their hand at this cider making as a
business is a fantastic idea. Look forward to hearing of your thoughts
and what part the other participants we be needed to do.
Regards,
Carl
> "The second is, what about "the rest of us"? This isn't a job for the
> folks organizing the conference, particularly this working group. But
> it should make the little guys sit up, take notice, and think about
> what -they- need. How do federal regs affect our ability to distinguish
> what we do, keep it off glucose-wine/new-age/wine-cooler/"malternative"
> shelf? Plus, while concerns about federal regulations are substantial,
> they're only one of the hurdles faced by small craft/artisan producers.
> (This came to my mind in another way today, as I was trying to find
> rootstock in small quantities for in-filling and new experiments.)
> I intend to start a separate thread, probably next digest, about what
> can be done to organize and find resources for producers under that
> 1000-case threshold, even down to under 100 cases/year."
> - --
> Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: What is so special about grapes?
From: lotic@juno.com
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:27:58 -0500
Bit of a gripe and a bit of sour grapes:
I'm just starting out as a commercial cider maker. This will be the first
year that I have a product for sale. I use only the apples I grow on my
certified organic orchard. "Organic" is not easy, and takes more labor
and more expense. I built a mill, where I press and ferment right at the
orchard. I was just about to submit my label to the TTB (they must
approve all labels. They have divided up all alcoholic beverages into
three categories: Wine, Malt Beverages, and Distilled Spirits). On their
website, they list examples of wine labels (TTB considers cider to be a
wine) that use "organic" on their label. The website says that if you use
sulfites, you can only put "Made with Organic (name organic ingredient
here)". I put in the word "apples". The TTB said that since I was using
the word "organic", that I must get a letter from my organic certifying
agent. I sent him an email, and he said that, basically, I cannot say
anything about organic as my "wine" is not made with grapes. I was
dumb-struck! I told him that >95% of the contents is organic. Didn't
matter.
It seems that the NOSB (National Organic Standards Board) made a recent
ruling (this past fall) that ONLY GRAPE wine may use sulfites and use the
word "organic". No other fruit wine (yes, that means cider) can do that.
Not apples, or peaches, or raspberries, or anything...just grapes.
So what is so stinking special about grapes?
I mean, I use sulfites (<100ppm total SO2) to make a shelf-stable
product; a bottle that can sit on a store shelf, and not in the
refrigerated section. I want my cider to last a while so that no one gets
a "funky" bottle. If I had a LOT of alcohol, I wouldn't need sulfites.
You can make higher alcohol wine out of grapes (more sugar) than apples.
So, if any fruit needed sulfites it would apples and not grapes.
Seems to me that the grape wine lobby has more than their fair share of
clout (can you say, "Gallo"?). Why would it be OK to use sulfites on one
fruit, and not another?
Now, get this: in Canada, Britain, and the E.U. you can use sulfites in
cider (up to 200ppm) and still use the word "organic" on the label. Yes,
yes, I know, I don't live there. I live here, and these are the rules
here. Still, the rules suck and should be changed. I've gone through
years of sweat to get my orchard certified. It is a pain. There are no
"amazing sprays" you can use. You must spray often with stuff that is
"defense only". If I can't use the word "organic" somewhere on the label,
then why bother growing organic at all?
If anyone knows who to contact at the USDA, send this email over to them.
In the meantime, I would be delighted to get some comments and advice.
Pete
------------------------------
Subject: Cidermakers Conference
From: Nick Gunn <nnugkcin@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:02:12 -0800 (PST)
In response to Dick's comments about the upcoming cidermakers conference,
There are two parts to the cider meeting in Salem, Oregon: 1. A Cider
Conference to serve as an educational piece for the cider industry and
2. A Federal Regulatory Working Group.
I believe these two separate components may have been confused as one. But
they are indeed two separate meetings with vastly different objectives.
1. Cider Conference. Any licensed commercial cidermaker (importer,
distributor, retailer, or commercial fruit grower) of any size is welcome
to attend. This conference is intended to serve as a means for collegial
exchange of ideas on the topics of cider production, apple selection and
orchard management, and cider marketing and business. The overall goal
of the conference is simply to bring commercial cider producers together
and get everyone talking in person. The hope is that this is an annual
event that helps to raise awareness of cider as a category, encourage more
plantings of cider fruit and in general, increase the diversity and quality
of domestically produced ciders. Anyone interested in attending should
e-mail info@wanderingaengus.com with Cider Conference in the subject line.
2. Regulatory Working Group is designed to discuss and hopefully arrive
at an agreed upon framework for federal regulatory changes. This may be
only the first in a series of meetings born out of a lively discussion
had at Cider Days this past November. It is time to continue and expand
this discussion so the cider industry can grow properly with relevant
regulations. Cider is not beer and is not wine; following the laws and
rules meant for the beer or wine industries has caused problems for some
producers in the past and confusion for mostly all cider producers.
The 1,000 cases minimum was an arbitrary amount that was meant to focus the
discussion around people engaged in interstate commerce, or have a large
financial stake when it comes to issues of regulation change. If you feel
that you have been, or may be burdened by regulatory changes in future,
you are welcome to attend, no matter the case quantity. This working group
discussion will continue on into the conference amongst all attendees,
and will last beyond the weekend.
Input from all producers is encouraged and necessary for any true public
process, but this first step is simply to put together a framework
in which to begin that process. If anyone wants to take part in this
meeting or express any comments or concerns, please e-mail us directly
(info@wanderingaengus.com).
Thanks,
James Kohn & Nick Gunn (always a friend to Dick Dunn)
------------------------------
Subject: Mold in wild ferment
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:02:32 +0000
Jarrod wrote:
> Hi Cider digest. I have a question regarding what I assume is mold
> forming atop of demi-johns that I am attempting a wild yeast ferment.
> >
> Does anyone know what the white substance was?... and is it likely to
> have any residual negative effects at the end?... all considering that
> at day 7 there is a happy ferment happening in all the demis.
> Eventhough the skimming appears to have worked, is there a better way to
> deal with it?
I'd say it was almost certainly mould. Cannot tell you which because
there are many many sorts associated with stored apples and orchards.
One thing that maybe gives the game away is that it didn't appear in the
sulphited juices. It *is* possible to lightly sulphite a juice to
suppress unwanted mould and bacteria while allowing the yeast to
develop, but to do that you need to know the pH and then to use about
half the 'official' recommendation of sulphite. See
http://www.cider.org.uk/sulphite.html But since your juice is probably
already quite acid there may not be a great advantage to you in doing
so, and it will certainly delay the yeast fermentation too.
Scooping it off is as good as anything. The only problem that might
arise is that some moulds produce woody or earthy flavour notes -
however the infection usually has to be quite heavy before this happens.
Taste it and if it is still good with no mouldy taste then it *is* good
;-) If it is noticeably tainted there is probably no cure, and
'blending off' will just contaminate a bigger batch!
>
> I have done several wild ferments over the years and this is the first
> time I have seen this. The apples have been in cold storage at a
> commercial packers until Jan 5, and were in very good shape. Does the
> late pressing (Jan 10) have anything to do with it?
It could be the result of cold store. Some apple moulds seem to
germinate much more quickly after withdrawal from cold store (especially
if gas atmosphere controlled too). Or it could be just coincidental and
the mould was around on your press and equipment anyway.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Perry Pear Trees
From: chris horn <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 09:24:30 -0800
Over the past few years I have developed a collection of Perry pears.
I have grafted up as many as I can when scions were made available.
As a result I have now have too many trees and would like to part with
some of them. At present I have eighteen varieties that are not listed
as being available from the collection near Corvallis. At this point I
think would like to part with whole trees (some OHxF, some on seedling)
and not going to attempt to ship them. Yes, that limits the area that
this is applicable to, but some is better than nothing. Please drop me
a note off list if you are interested.
Thanks
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon USA
'Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some hire public relations
officers.'
-Daniel J. Boorstin
------------------------------
Subject: Does cider clear more rapidly in a plastic 2.5 gallon pig than in a
From: denniswaller@comcast.net
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:43:29 +0000 (UTC)
Recently I switched from bottling my cider in 1 liter glass bottles
to 2.5 gallon plastic "pigs" made of PET chiefly because the pigs are
easier to handle and retain carbonation better than an opened bottle. I
have the impression the yeast is dropping out of the cider more quickly
in the pigs than in the glass bottles. I say "impression" because I have
not scientifically measured the clarity of the cider. It is important to
mention the two batches of cider came from the same? juice source and? ?
were fermented with the same yeast.
Does anyone know whether the material from which the container is made and
in which? the cider is aged and carbonated has any effect on the rate at
which the yeast will settle out?
Dennis Waller
Denniswaller@comcast.net
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End of Cider Digest #1611
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