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Cider Digest #1632
Subject: Cider Digest #1632, 18 May 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1632 18 May 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1631, 14 May 2011 (denniswaller@comcast.net)
re: MLF, "wild" vs culture ("rkreeves")
MLF wild v. cultured (wilf how)
Re: re #1630/Cider Marketing (Dick Dunn)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1631, 14 May 2011
From: denniswaller@comcast.net
Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 22:20:54 +0000 (UTC)
In response to my negative opinion of ciders made in the Skagit valley
Dick Dunn wrote
1) What do you mean by "expensive"? ANSWER: $ 6.95 per liter + tax. .
2) What do you mean by "an unattractive taste"? ANSWER: There were several
faults and they were noted by my wife as well as some friends who tasted
the cider. First, the ciders were all excessively sweetened. Second they
had what I would call a ropy flavor and virtually no apple flavor. Having
tasted draft Strongbow (English) and draft Kelly's (Irish) and Manger
(bottled Irish) ciders during a recent trip to NY City, I am well aware of
the low quality of many commerical ciders that are made by adding water,
apple concentrate and sweetening agents to fermented cider.
3) Ciders made from some traditional English or French cider-specific apple
varieties won't be "tangy", and that's deliberate. Also, they won't be
what I would call "fresh", although I'm grasping at what you might mean.
Specifically, they won't taste like apples. ANSWER: I don't know which
varieties of apples were used to make these ciders but I was told by the
scientists at the local pomology research station that traditional English
and French cider varieties were not grown in this region in sufficient
quantities to make commercial cider. Therefore, I assume the cider was
made from dessert varieties that have dominated US apple production since
the inception of prohibition, and many of those varieties especially
Granny Smiths have relatively high acid levels and therefore the tang I
was expecting.
In sum: The small commercial cider industry in the US needs the competition
produced several decades ago when microbreweries began to challenge the
huge industrial brewers and showed the American public what real ale and
lager tastes like. Unfortunately some of the ciders I tasted were also made
with sweetening agents and apple concentrate. It is my opinion that until
local cideries produce a higher quality product and offer it on draft,
they will not be able to take market share away from the strong regional
microbreweries that not only use high quality ingredients but now offer cask
conditioned ales. In a regional market like the maritine NW that offers a
wide variety of high quality microbrewed beers only an outstanding cider
will attract sufficient buyers to make a cidery a commercial success. I
don't think the ciders I tasted fit that description.
Dennis denniswaller@comcast.net
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Subject: re: MLF, "wild" vs culture
From: "rkreeves" <rkreeves5960@att.net>
Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 18:04:27 -0700
I would guess a spontaneous MLF to have a variety of Leuconostic as well
as Lactobacillus species, perhaps other "actors" as well. FWIW, I remember
using a cultured ML bacteria in the mid 1980's that gave Chardonnay a nice
"apple butter" note. IIRC, it was called ML-34 or ML-35, and I believe it
may have originated from (wine) producers in Oregon's Willamette valley. It
may have changed names or fallen out of style since then. Maybe be worth
looking up.
Richard Reeves
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Subject: MLF wild v. cultured
From: wilf how <wilf1979@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 22:57:45 +0100 (BST)
Hi Dick,
I'm embarking on this experiment also with half wild half cultured. Will
keep you posted and see if I get to the same conclusions.
wilf
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Subject: Re: re #1630/Cider Marketing
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:49:41 -0600
Thanks to Mike Beck for the good detail on cider pricing and marketing.
What he says is fairly well spot on.
There's a conundrum in how to present cider on the shelf. As Mike notes,
when you end up in the beer section, you're in a real price pinch. IF
you could get over into the wine section, you'd have a chance at a
retail price that would actually figure back (unwinding all the
overheads) to where you'd make money.
But as Mike said, cider isn't on the wine-drinkers' radar. And Charles
McGonegal has observed in the past that at tastings or festivals or the
like, the wine-drinkers turn up their noses at cider and keep walking,
while the beer drinkers are the adventuresome ones who will give it a
try.
So what's the way out of this? Try to find how to market to wine
drinkers who aren't startled in the least at $10-12/750ml? or try to
get beer drinkers past the "sticker shock" of good cider?
I'm in a collaboration with a winery (actually meadery) where we're
producing a fairly assertive, completely dry cider retailing at
$12/750ml, and it's selling well as far as that goes. But we're only
up to 30+ cases this year, so I don't know how quickly we'd saturate our
local market for that price point.
One other bit: I think Mike was kind to distributors. There are
some good ones, but the three-tier system is structured to encourage
the wrong sorts. Also, it's definitely geared toward working with
larger producers. Until you really need a distributor (depending on
what your state laws are), it's worth looking at direct sales to
retailers, sales at farmers' markets, tasting-room sales, etc.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1632
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